Film Convert Is Dead!

[Liam]

what else is analogue and simply carried over from the past, that we don't need to use as a crutch anymore? Or gives a broken charm to cinema? SHOULD we be making films at 120fps? Why are we even talking about frames? It should somehow be an actual moving image by now. Or we should aim for such high dynamic range that we can see the coil in every bulb before clipping? Are anamorphic lenses just left over? Get rid of any lens character, crop for the aspect ratio (why do you even want a specific aspect ratio? What are you trying to emulate?). Is sensor size just left over? Most sensors are designed to be a similar size to the film counterparts. There are other advantages to a large sensor, but why is it desireable in itself? It's just a space aged version of the old cameras. No more film-like colors, only accurate colors from now on? maybe the entire camera should really be modeled after how human eyes see? Maybe "editing" only started because the camera was too heavy to carry around, and didn't have enough film to keep recording. Is the Birdman style more advanced? A sign of the future?

Not even trying to be totally sarcastic, it's interesting to think what all we could do. But it's more difficult than "we've moved on from film, stop using grain".

A lot of people still like shooting on film, at a high cost, with stunning results. I'm never gonna scoff at Paul Thomas Anderson's reluctancy to stop using film grain.

As a t3i owner, it's pretty obvious why I'd love for Hollywood to keep using grain. Certainly can level things out for the amateurs. until they're the only ones doing it

[Damphousse]

A bunch of people wrote some good stuff in this thread, too many to quote.  Before I really got into editing and color correcting my videos I thought adding grain was just to emulate a film look.  Now I realize with the inherent flaws in digital cameras and post processing such as denoising and high compression for web delivery grain is a valuable tool.  I also realize using a good grain plugin and understanding the nuances of applying it are crucial.

Given the limitations of our cameras I can't imagine taking film grain out of my tool box.  Just about every guide I've seen on denoising DSLR footage mentions adding grain to mitigate some of the ill effects of the process.

[DBounce]

4 minutes ago, Liam said:

what else is analogue and simply carried over from the past, that we don't need to use as a crutch anymore? Or gives a broken charm to cinema? SHOULD we be making films at 120fps? Why are we even talking about frames? It should somehow be an actual moving image by now. Or we should aim for such high dynamic range that we can see the coil in every bulb before clipping? Are anamorphic lenses just left over? Get rid of any lens character, crop for the aspect ratio (why do you even want a specific aspect ratio? What are you trying to emulate?). Is sensor size just left over? Most sensors are designed to be a similar size to the film counterparts. There are other advantages to a large sensor, but why is it desireable in itself? It's just a space aged version of the old cameras. No more film-like colors, only accurate colors from now on? maybe the entire camera should really be modeled after how human eyes see? Maybe "editing" only started because the camera was too heavy to carry around, and didn't have enough film to keep recording. Is the Birdman style more advanced? A sign of the future?

Not even trying to be totally sarcastic, it's interesting to think what all we could do. But it's more difficult than "we've moved on from film, stop using grain".

A lot of people still like shooting on film, at a high cost, with stunning results. I'm never gonna scoff at Paul Thomas Anderson's reluctancy to stop using film grain.

As a t3i owner, it's pretty obvious why I'd love for Hollywood to keep using grain. Certainly can level things out for the amateurs. until they're the only ones doing it

120 FPS is not how the human eye sees, and so feels unnatural to us.  We see motion blur in normal vision. Anamorphic plays to our peripheral vision. And yes, I'd love a camera with impossibly high dynamic range, because it will allow greater latitude when grading in post. Aspect ratios are dictated by delivering requirements. Colors are used to express a mode... blues cold, great for horror for example. Birdman was edited... you are clearly confused.

All your huffing and a puffing will not stop the winds of change. Mark my words. The idea of emulating the traditional film look are numbered. It will soon only be used for nostalgic purposes. The iPhone and GoPro generation has no warm and fussies for film. They do not feel the need to add grainy distortion to otherwise clean footage. 

Look at the likes of Blackmagic. Their new cameras produce a much more sterile look. 

[Lintelfilm]

2 minutes ago, DBounce said:

The iPhone ... generation has no warm and fussies for film.

I believe there's a thing called Instagram that's quite popular with one or two iPhone users. It's popularity is partly due to the "film look" it allows. 

[Liam]

10 minutes ago, DBounce said:

120 FPS is not how the human eye sees, and so feels unnatural to us.  We see motion blur in normal vision. Anamorphic plays to our peripheral vision. And yes, I'd love a camera with impossibly high dynamic range, because it will allow greater latitude when grading in post. Aspect ratios are dictated by delivering requirements. Colors are used to express a mode... blues cold, great for horror for example. Birdman was edited... you are clearly confused.

All your huffing and a puffing will not stop the winds of change. Mark my words. The idea of emulating the traditional film look are numbered. It will soon only be used for nostalgic purposes. The iPhone and GoPro generation has no warm and fussies for film. They do not feel the need to add grainy distortion to otherwise clean footage. 

Look at the likes of Blackmagic. Their new cameras produce a much more sterile look. 

You are clearly a big meanie pants. I was going to say Silent House, but assumed people had actually seen Birdman. Just in case you haven't seen it, it's in a Birdman style. I'm not sure blackmagic would be thrilled their new cameras have an indescribable quality that makes it feel different and new age. Iphone and gopro suck. But your words have been marked

[DBounce]

5 minutes ago, Lintelfilm said:

I believe there's a thing called Instagram that's quite popular with one or two iPhone users. It's popularity is partly due to the "film look" it allows. 

There will always be cheesy filters. Snapchat allows cartoon noses. Your point?

[Lintelfilm]

1 minute ago, DBounce said:

There will always be cheesy filters. Snapchat allows cartoon noses. Your point?

Oh the usual internet stuff: I'm right, you're wrong. I need to make sure you and all the other users here know that. I will not give up responding to your responses until it is clear to everyone here that you are an awful human being and my powers of intellect are superior to yours. This conversation is so important it'll occupy a good portion of my day. There are children getting bombed in Syria right now but someone with a random name on a very specialist hobbyist forum about something completely meaningless has a different opinion to me about it and he dared to answer back when I pointed out he was WRONG. Oh so wrong. Everyone is wrong. Listen to me I'm the best. My camera is best. No wait actually let's make this personal - your films are rubbish mine are great. Your existence is less valid than mine. Give up filmmaking! You know nothing! Hang your head in shame, fiend! Be gone! Actually no please stay I regret my outburst you are lovely. I love you. I love everyone here. I love everything. I love pretend film grain. I even love video without grain!

[DBounce]

8 minutes ago, Lintelfilm said:

Oh the usual internet stuff: I'm right, you're wrong. I need to make sure you and all the other users here know that. I will not give up responding to your responses until it is clear to everyone here that you are an awful human being and my powers of intellect are superior to yours. This conversation is so important it'll occupy a good portion of my day. There are children getting bombed in Syria right now but someone with a random name on a very specialist hobbyist forum about something completely meaningless has a different opinion to me about it and he dared to answer back when I pointed out he was WRONG. Oh so wrong. Everyone is wrong. Listen to me I'm the best. My camera is best. No wait actually let's make this personal - your films are rubbish mine are great. Your existence is less valid than mine. Give up filmmaking! You know nothing! Hang your head in shame, fiend! Be gone! Actually no please stay I regret my outburst you are lovely. I love you. I love everyone here. I love everything. I love pretend film grain. I even love video without grain!

Wait.. what?

[Lintelfilm]

Just now, DBounce said:

Wait.. what?

Think of the children! Won't somebody please think of the children?!

[Phil A]

53 minutes ago, DBounce said:

All your huffing and a puffing will not stop the winds of change. Mark my words. The idea of emulating the traditional film look are numbered. It will soon only be used for nostalgic purposes. The iPhone and GoPro generation has no warm and fussies for film. They do not feel the need to add grainy distortion to otherwise clean footage. 

Nearly everyone of these whom I know films everything in portrait orientation. I pray to gawd the iPhone and GoPro generation isn't the benchmark for future filmmaking 

[Liam]

Okay, guys, it's important to remember that he's a pharaoh first and foremost, not a filmmaker. Let him have crazy ideas sometimes, who's he hurting? Just be impressed he's adapted so well to computers, and be thankful it's not another thread about Ra the sun god. 

[DBounce]

4 minutes ago, Liam said:

Okay, guys, it's important to remember that he's a pharaoh first and foremost, not a filmmaker. Let him have crazy ideas sometimes, who's he hurting? Just be impressed he's adapted so well to computers, and be thankful it's not another thread about Ra the sun god. 

Can we get a shout out for Ra?

[Damphousse]

1 hour ago, DBounce said:

All your huffing and a puffing will not stop the winds of change. Mark my words. The idea of emulating the traditional film look are numbered. It will soon only be used for nostalgic purposes. The iPhone and GoPro generation has no warm and fussies for film. They do not feel the need to add grainy distortion to otherwise clean footage.

Just thought you should read this...

Quote

Nearly a third of film photographers are younger than 35 years of age, and “support for traditional film is growing,” says Ilford Photo. The company, best known for its analog photo products, reported these findings after doing an international survey of film users.

The “comprehensive” survey was conducted at the tail end of 2014, and “thousands of users” from over 70 countries around the world participated. “The results were inspiring,” says Ilford.

http://petapixel.com/2015/02/04/30-film-shooters-younger-35-says-ilford/

I don't know what you mean by the "iPhone" generation.  Do you mean the content producers or the consumers?  I can tell you right now consumers don't have warm fuzzies about 99% of what we argue about on here.  And if you mean the content producers, I would have to guess the people that are really passionate about this field study and take cues from movies shot on film.

I also have to say as someone who does film photography your characterization of film is very strange.  My advice is to have a look at a print made from a well exposed Kodak TMAX 100 medium format roll of film and then come back and tell us what "grainy distortion" you saw.  With film the amount of grain varies from nonexistent at normal viewing distances to gigantic.  You have to decide how much to add.  If all your work looks like "grainy distortion" that's a problem with your technique or the particular tool you chose.  For a lot of circumstances to me the idea is to subtly dial in the amount of grain you need to get the needed effect while avoiding turning things up so much the grain walks off the screen and shakes hands with the audience.

A lot of "film looks" I see at the movies don't look like anything I get with film photography.  I think in a way you may be on to something.  There are generations of people that are being taught the "film look" is gigantic grain and "teal and orange" or monochromatic color pallet.  It sounds to me like you are commenting on the abuse of the film look vs a subtle implementation of the film look.

[Axel]

4 hours ago, Damphousse said:

A bunch of people wrote some good stuff in this thread, too many to quote.

You are right.

4 hours ago, Damphousse said:

Given the limitations of our cameras I can't imagine taking film grain out of my tool box.  Just about every guide I've seen on denoising DSLR footage mentions adding grain to mitigate some of the ill effects of the process.

It aren't the limitations of our cameras.

On 5. September 2016 at 7:42 PM, DBounce said:

I just feel it's like when people use to add the record player sound to digital recordings.  

But people continue to mix needle droppers or vinyl scratches and rumbling to their music mixes. Not to make the audience remember the good old times - most of them never heard a real record player in their life. They add a technical layer that tells you, subconsciously, found music, sampled music, heard-before, meaningful, indirect, subtle.

On 5. September 2016 at 7:42 PM, DBounce said:

I'm seriously trying to get away from the old film look. 

Interesting idea. Tell a story in 120 fps, 8k, 20 stops DR, no vignettes or shallow DoF allowed, no drastically reduced color palettes permitted. Of course no grain (a technical layer that tells you, processed material, not real-time recordings, supposed to mean something). 

In earnest, I think it could work. You just had to pull any other string available to you. Sets, costumes, make-up, acting. Good storytelling. 

[Blah Blah]

It's the same in audio software, almost everyone wants to have legendary analog compressors, reverbs and eq. Though not many like to add hiss, if that's what is grain's audio equivalent. The nonlinearities make sounds feel more alive.

[roccoforte]

Adding film grain in post is a creative choice. Saying that it's "out of style" might be correct but grain should be used by a talented director where a clean look isn't appropriate and a grainy look is. Saying it's not longer in vogue is claiming that all films should be shot with a clean look in mind, which simply isn't true, even if some think it might be going out of style, because it's one of many creative choices the filmmakers have in their arsenal.

 

 

 

[Damphousse]

2 hours ago, Axel said:

It aren't the limitations of our cameras.

Sorry I wasn't referring to your camera.  I was speaking about my camera and the other people who posted who complained of things such as banding with 8bit acquisition codecs on certain cameras.

My point was I agreed with the other posters who cited mitigating technical flaws as one motivation for using film grain.  I was actually surprised by this thread.  A little film grain as a technical tool was something of a nice discovery for me.  I know I got back into analog photography because of artifacts like banding in digital photography.  At least with photography getting the film look is easy.  Just shoot film.

[Xavier Plagaro Mussard]

I got Netflix recently and, for example, watching Narcos, I miss the grain. Mostly on night scenes. Clean 4K night scenes remembers me we are watching actors on a set!!! 

[kidzrevil]

Funny enough the consumer can care less about what we are talking about here. Grain ? No grain ? It doesn't really matter, art is subjective. You can't dictate what tools people want to use for their artistic expression. I hear you though, the movie you seen probably looked great to you without the grain. Thats cool you can adopt that style for your work but for the rest of us who enjoy the look of film grain we WILL use film grain.

Also as many have mentioned before film grain does benefit our compressed 8bit footage and is essential to our post production workflow. 

[Lintelfilm]

24 minutes ago, Xavier Plágaro Mussard said:

I got Netflix recently and, for example, watching Narcos, I miss the grain. Mostly on night scenes. Clean 4K night scenes remembers me we are watching actors on a set!!! 

You can stop to think about image quality while watching Narcos!?!