"No-budget" Video

[ncam]

Hi all,

Totally new here and looking forward to jumping in on the conversation.  I'm a student of media and communication in Rochester, NY.  I have experience in stills, but I am just delving into video.

 

I currently shoot with a Nikon D7000 and an ever-changing assortment of lenses.  The D7000 is very limiting as far as video goes, so I'm looking to add a camera to my bag that will open up some new avenues as far as frame rates and bit rates go.  I'm interested in learning more about color grading, so naturally RAW video is attractive to me, but that comes at a price -- both monetary and in terms of other gear to support the file sizes.  

 

With that being said, I'm interested in picking up a body that will let me explore some more video options.  Particularly I've been looking at Canon cameras, paired with Magic Lantern (i.e. EOS-M, T2i, 50D, 7D) or possibly a Panasonic camera (G6, GH2).  

 

I'm looking for something that I can shoot compressed video which can be color graded, as well as something that opens up more options in the realm of RAW capabilities and higher frame rates.  Just looking to hear what you all have found works well!  (As an example of where this question comes from, I've been exploring Magic Lantern's "Raw capabilities chart" but have yet to find significant information regarding the Magic Lantern possibilities for compressed video.)  My only requirement is the ability to shoot 1080p (obviously, lower in RAW).

 

Thanks,

Nick

[Cinegain]

Get rid of the D7000 and buy a D5500? Would make sense for someone familliar with Nikon. It has very nice video actually at 1080p60 and a flat profile. Of course, if the thing that attracts you is the tinkering around with settings and experimenting with features, go ahead and get any of those you mentioned. But all it will do is create more perhaps unneccessary post processing when the D5500 would be very straight to the point. Just my 2cts. Gd luck.

[ncam]

1 minute ago, Cinegain said:

Get rid of the D7000 and buy a D5500? Would make sense for someone familliar with Nikon. It has very nice video actually at 1080p60 and a flat profile. Of course, if the thing that attracts you is the tinkering around with settings and experimenting with features, go ahead and get any of those you mentioned. But all it will do is create more perhaps unneccessary post processing when the D5500 would be very straight to the point. Just my 2cts. Gd luck.

 

Cool! Thanks for the help! I did look into the D5500 and I'm very interested by it, I'm just not sure that I want to surrender the D7000 as I do use it frequently for landscape and event photography (need the weather seals and mag-alloy body)

[mercer]

What's your budget?

[enny]

Black magic pocket shoots raw and ProRes . I shoot no budget music video like no money at all and it was awesome to work in ProRes. this small camera is amazing specially with metabone speedbooster. If you are serious about raw dynamic range and color grading this camera is way to go. Just my 2 cents.

 

Here is that music video with no budget done in 6h

 

[mercer]

10 minutes ago, enny said:

Black magic pocket shoots raw and ProRes . I shoot no budget music video like no money at all and it was awesome to work in ProRes. this small camera is amazing specially with metabone speedbooster. If you are serious about raw dynamic range and color grading this camera is way to go. Just my 2 cents.

 

Here is that music video with no budget done in 6h

 

Pretty cool color grade enny. Was the clothing color chosen beforehand, so it would almost appear it was in black and white?

[fuzzynormal]

Ha!  "Hormoans" That's awesome.  Well, I suppose that local-band stuff probably hasn't changed much since I was spitting bubblegum.

[enny]

2 hours ago, mercer said:

Pretty cool color grade enny. Was the clothing color chosen beforehand, so it would almost appear it was in black and white?

no dude nuthing was chosen just location that what i love abut raw or proress you can push it so far in post to achieve great look or in my case nice look

1 minute ago, fuzzynormal said:

Ha!  "Hormoans" That's awesome.  Well, I suppose that local-band stuff probably hasn't changed much since I was spitting bubblegum.

yeah i know

[sanveer]

10 hours ago, enny said:

Black magic pocket shoots raw and ProRes . I shoot no budget music video like no money at all and it was awesome to work in ProRes. this small camera is amazing specially with metabone speedbooster. If you are serious about raw dynamic range and color grading this camera is way to go. Just my 2 cents.

 

Here is that music video with no budget done in 6h

 

Nice grade. Video is seriously shaky. Almost like someone headbanging while recording it. Also the sound sync has a few milliseconds delay.

Nice work though. And excellent for doing it in 6 hours. 

[ncam]

Thanks for all of the input and discussion! I'm looking to spend more in the ballpark of $200-$300 and then upgrade later on, once I feel as though I've gained some skill with video.

[mercer]

26 minutes ago, ncam said:

Thanks for all of the input and discussion! I'm looking to spend more in the ballpark of $200-$300 and then upgrade later on, once I feel as though I've gained some skill with video.

At that price range I would definitely go with Canon 50D. With Magic Lantern this stills camera becomes a Raw video recording monster. But since the 50D wasn't released with video features, there will be no sound. The video guts were inside the camera, but Canon decided against including them with 50D, it took Magic Lantern to unlock them. If you're absolutely looking for a camera with sound as well as video, then maybe a used GH2, eos-m... Etc...

If you do decide to go with a Canon and Magic Lantern, just be forewarned, there will be some hiccups... You will get some dropped frames... The camera will occasionally freeze... It will over heat... The post workflow is a little tedious, but not too bad... Although rare, there is always a possibility you could brick the camera.

With that being said, it can be frustrating, but if you do your research and work the camera, you should be pleased once you get those files into your computer.

Or if you're patient and scour craigslist regularly, you may be able to find a used BMPCC, but even then, with the best deal, I doubt you'd find one for two hundred... Probably closer to five. 

[cantsin]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

At that price range I would definitely go with Canon 50D. With Magic Lantern this stills camera becomes a Raw video recording monster. But since the 50D wasn't released with video features, there will be no sound. The video guts were inside the camera, but Canon decided against including them with 50D, it took Magic Lantern to unlock them. If you're absolutely looking for a camera with sound as well as video, then maybe a used GH2, eos-m... Etc...

Don't underestimate other issues connected to the 50D: It can only record 30p (other frame rates not natively, but only by dropping frames of the 30p stream), the maximum raw video resolution is under 1080p, there is moiree and aliasing (worse than BM Pocket), and you'll need a potent computer (i7 + at least 16GB RAM + GPU power on the level of the Nvidia GTX960 or better) if you want to natively edit and grade the CinemaDNG footage. In addition, the 50D records uncompressed CinemaDNG on expensive, fast CF cards; the cheapest option, an off-brand Komputerbay 64 GB card for about $60, will only give you about 15 minutes recording time. 

Frankly, I wouldn't recommend the 50D anymore because of these issues unless one has most of the required accessories (fast CF cards, fast CF reader, fast computer, backup batteries, Canon-compatible lenses etc.) already lying around.

[ncam]

33 minutes ago, cantsin said:

Don't underestimate other issues connected to the 50D: It can only record 30p (other frame rates not natively, but only by dropping frames of the 30p stream), the maximum raw video resolution is under 1080p, there is moiree and aliasing (worse than BM Pocket), and you'll need a potent computer (i7 + at least 16GB RAM + GPU power on the level of the Nvidia GTX960 or better) if you want to natively edit and grade the CinemaDNG footage. In addition, the 50D records uncompressed CinemaDNG on expensive, fast CF cards; the cheapest option, an off-brand Komputerbay 64 GB card for about $60, will only give you about 15 minutes recording time. 

Frankly, I wouldn't recommend the 50D anymore because of these issues unless one has most of the required accessories (fast CF cards, fast CF reader, fast computer, backup batteries, Canon-compatible lenses etc.) already lying around.

Yeah, this is what led to a broader search on my part.  At first glance, the 50D looks great, but it's definitely too good to be true.  I'm thinking that a Panasonic G6, GH2, or Nikon D5500 might be best.

[DPC]

My advice would be to spend as little as you can on gear and as much time as possible editing and shooting. Have you thought about just using a mobile phone with 4K and something like FilmicPro or Cinema4K? http://www.filmicpro.com/   http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/28/7925023/sundance-film-festival-2015-tangerine-iphone-5s  http://www.indiewire.com/2016/01/watch-teaser-for-matthew-cherrys-iphone-6s-filmed-nine-rides-dorian-missick-stars-162241/  

[cantsin]

6 minutes ago, ncam said:

Yeah, this is what led to a broader search on my part.  At first glance, the 50D looks great, but it's definitely too good to be true.  I'm thinking that a Panasonic G6, GH2, or Nikon D5500 might be best.

IMHO: There's no really good reason to choose a GH2 over a G6 except maybe the price (if you find a really cheap used GH2). And regarding the question Nikon vs. Panasonic/MFT vs. Nikon DX, I'd compare videos and decide which I look to prefer:

https://vimeo.com/search?q=d5500

https://vimeo.com/search?q=panasonic+g6

Panasonics have much better handling while Nikon is superior for stills (and might produce more pleasing video colors, depending on taste). Don't underestimate the costs for switching systems either. MFT lenses are generally more expensive than their Nikon DSLR counterparts; buying a Nikon-to-MFT Speed Booster isn't cheap either.

[ncam]

To reply to multiple response:

Yes, I've considered shooting with a phone, and no I absolutely am not interested in it.  I like to have full control over focal point, aperture, shutter speed, ISO and focal distance.

I'm also not replacing my D7000 – which will remain my primary stills camera, hence the interest in a MFT camera that is more suited towards video.

[mercer]

Honestly, the problem is your budget, which is why I recommended the 50D, and since you mentioned an interest in it. For that money the 50D is the best Raw capable camera around. But in my honest opinion, if you're just looking to get your feet wet with video, don't switch to m4/3. You already own Nikon lenses, there is absolutely no reason to switch. I would search for either an upgrade to your D7000... A D7200 or a D750 which gives you the flexibility and durability to shoot video and stills in one package. Their flat profile is beautiful and the video codec is strong in 24p and 60p.

[DPC]

"I like to have full control over focal point, aperture, shutter speed, ISO and focal distance." Cool. But I think nowadays you can get most of that on the right phone with the right app. My point was really that the only lasting skills are ones not linked to specific technology. In my opinion.

 

[mercer]

1 hour ago, cantsin said:

Don't underestimate other issues connected to the 50D: It can only record 30p (other frame rates not natively, but only by dropping frames of the 30p stream), the maximum raw video resolution is under 1080p, there is moiree and aliasing (worse than BM Pocket), and you'll need a potent computer (i7 + at least 16GB RAM + GPU power on the level of the Nvidia GTX960 or better) if you want to natively edit and grade the CinemaDNG footage. In addition, the 50D records uncompressed CinemaDNG on expensive, fast CF cards; the cheapest option, an off-brand Komputerbay 64 GB card for about $60, will only give you about 15 minutes recording time. 

Frankly, I wouldn't recommend the 50D anymore because of these issues unless one has most of the required accessories (fast CF cards, fast CF reader, fast computer, backup batteries, Canon-compatible lenses etc.) already lying around.

I think you're over playing the flaws of 50D ML Raw as if they're flaws limited to the 50D ML Raw when that's not entirely the case. From you're laundry list it really sounds like you wouldn't recommend any ML Raw capable camera.

I thought all ML Raw was recorded from live view which is 30p, so all 24p is a "dropped frame" scenario... I've only really used 50D but that's how it seems from the ML guide.

Only the 5D MKiii can do full resolution and only the MKiii is moire and alias free without a VAF filter. But with my short and limited experience with it, the moire and aliasing is a minor hindrance... Nothing that would keep me away from it at the price point.

You don't need to natively edit the raw DNG files... You can easily process the Raw in Resolve and then render the files to ProRes for editing in a less taxing system  

64GB Lexar 1066 CF cards are 60 bucks at BH and I've been getting over 20 minutes with them. Sure I'd love to get 2 hours, but for a $200 camera that shoots Raw video... I can't complain. 

With all that being said, yeah it's not the best production camera, or even in the top 20, but for the price, you get a lot... especially if you're just looking to get your feet wet with ML Raw... Which is what I took from the OP. 

[Cinegain]

The D5500 has a reasonably solid built, but yeah, there's something to say for the absolute toughness of the D7000. Atleast you'd have one set of native lenses to use on both if you got the D5500 additionally. It also makes a pretty mean stills camera, so... if you do want to use it in a hybrid sense for the occasional stills when you're out shooting video, it blows the other mentioned cameras out of the water with its 24MP sensor. Very clean and detailed.

Before you buy the G6... the G7 was actually very sharply priced! I imagine when the GX80/85 came out, maybe there were people who prefered the built-in stabilization and went with that one and put their G7 for sale? It's 4K. It's really good and outclasses the GH4 even in some areas. Also... maybe there are some good 2nd hand deals on the LX100? That's basically all you need to start shooting and experimenting. Use it at max ISO1250 and the image is really nice. After all these years maybe GH2 bodies have finally reached bottom dollar? Not sure. You would probably need the SanDisk 95MB/s cards though.

Although I've enjoy my time with the Canon PowerShot SX1 IS with CHDK (Canon Hack Development Kit to run scripts and such (basically Magic Lantern)) and that being the thing that sparked my love for shooting video. Since, I've never really been interested in picking up a Canon myself. I can't however deny their contribution to the way we shoot video today and the success especially of many YouTube channels that started out with 550D/T2is (don't think actually many used Magic Lantern over the years though, they just wanted to press the button - record and upload it with the least amount of fuzz and healthy looking skin colors). The T2i is a classic and everything is well documented. So you can always go that route. I'm sure Zach Goodwin would approve that message.