Canon C500 Is it worth 7K new?

[Kino]

3 hours ago, mkabi said:

Thanks Kino, very enlightening. 

After reading and researching further, you have to merge the .rmf clips from the 2 hard drives with Convergent Design's Clip Merger app.

What if I don't want to pay that extra $1000 to unlock Canon RAW on the Odyssey... well... at least not right away...

Can you still output the 4K RAW and/or 4K HRAW @ 120fps and record it on the Odyssey as pro res.?

I understand that the max. the Odyssey will do in Pro Res is 4K at 30p... so will the 4K 120fps output be rerecorded as 4K 30p Pro Res (slowed down)? (I know Andrew laid it out, but it wasn't really specific enough in the article: http://www.eoshd.com/2016/06/4k-raw-120fps-3k-say-hello-second-hand-canon-c500/)

No problem. I'm glad to help in any way I can.

The C500's HD 120fps is output at 10 bit 4:2:2 YCC in DPX (uncompressed) and MOV formats that should be supported without the RAW upgrade.

However, I would check with Mitch Gross or someone else at CG to make sure, as it seems important for you. From what I have read and seen, the RAW 4096 X 1080 is the best 120fps footage from the camera. This is different from 120fps "Half RAW" 4096 x 2160, which leads to a loss of vertical resolution.

[Kino]

While most people associate the C500 with famous American DPs like Hurlbut or Jeff Cronenweth, we should not forget to mention the C500 work shot by CML founder Geoff Boyle, BSC:

It's impressive to read that this was all shot with EF glass. Here are some of Boyle's lens tests using the C500:

http://www.cinematography.net/CML-CMIR-Lens-Tests.html

His over and under exposure results as part of the 2015 CML camera tests are also available:

http://www.cinematography.net/edited-pages/C500-uwe-2015.html

There is a wealth of useful info there on the camera, especially with regard to the differences in overexposure when dealing with tungsten vs. daylight. Unfortunately, the 5,000 ISO test of the two low-light champs, the C500 and the Varicam, is no longer available through the online link.

[mkabi]

23 hours ago, Kino said:

No problem. I'm glad to help in any way I can.

Thanks Kino.

Speaking of which, after more research on the Atomos Shogun Inferno. You (not specifically you, Kino... but anyone) need to really read between the lines.

Its a Raw recorder, so it will take a Raw signal, BUT it will convert it to either CinemaDNG, Pro Res. or DNxHD from SDI (supporting: FS series cameras and C300ii/C500).

So, my next question... is CinemaDNG a raw format?

What is the difference between CinemaDNG and Canon's RMF?

[Kino]

1 hour ago, mkabi said:

Thanks Kino.

Speaking of which, after more research on the Atomos Shogun Inferno. You (not specifically you, Kino... but anyone) need to really read between the lines.

Its a Raw recorder, so it will take a Raw signal, BUT it will convert it to either CinemaDNG, Pro Res. or DNxHD from SDI (supporting: FS series cameras and C300ii/C500).

So, my next question... is CinemaDNG a raw format?

What is the difference between CinemaDNG and Canon's RMF?

CinemaDNG is Adobe's RAW format (for example, the BMPC-4K records RAW using CDNG), but it is only promised in a future Atomos firmware update for the Inferno (as mentioned on their website). When it is released, you will be able to record up to 30fps from the C500 in CDNG on the Inferno. Nothing else has been specified regarding CDNG recording in the Inferno. For example, will it retain the 10 bit logarithmic RAW signal, which is crucial to unpacking Canon Cinema RAW in post? With RMF, you can process your files to ensure proper unpacking of the 10 bit log. I'm not sure how it will work with CDNG. What will happen with the four lattices of the Bayer sensor data I referenced above? These data streams must be recorded properly to ensure effective demosaicing in post to retain the C500's outstanding resolution and anti-aliasing performance in 4K. As for 2K 12 bit RGB 4:4:4, it is not even supported in the Inferno, let alone ProRes 4:4:4:4.

Some of the links I posted above go into the specifics and unique attributes of Canon cinema RAW, which is quite different from almost any other RAW implementation since the Canon RAW has much larger data rates (moreover, ISO is baked-in and white balance is set). For this reason, I would prefer to remain within Canon's RMF workflow (or DPX, as the Odyssey records the 2K 12 bit RGB 4:4:4 into this compatible format) as it is crucial to extracting the most faithful recording from the 3G-SDI data streams. Here is a section from one of Canon's white papers on Canon Cinema RAW in the C500:

"Management of C500 Output Data Rate – Logarithmic Encoding

Considerations of RAW data rate outputs from the EOS C500 differ from that of most other single sensor
cameras – and they are two-fold:

1. In close consultation with no less than five separate digital recording manufacturers we
established a consensus on a maximum camera data rate output that could be managed by each
(even though each had different recording strategies)

2. Very important – Canon specifically wanted to use the SMPTE ST 425-1:2011 serial 3G SDI
interface as the transport mechanism for our RAW data – in order to facilitate:

o A standardized (and universal) serial digital delivery to each of the disparate recorders
o Passage of the camera output RAW data into broadcast 4K/2K/HD infrastructures that
utilize standardized 3G SDI system elements (camera CCUs, routers, encoders etc)

Accordingly, the RAW data rate output is constrained to less than 3Gbps for both 4K and 2K having
frame rates up to 30P – so only one 3G SDI interface would be required.

This data rate was achieved without resorting to compression by constraining the camera output to a
bit depth of 10-bit for the 4K RAW and to 12-bit for the 2K RAW – as outlined in the following:

Canon 4K: 4444 Bayer RAW Data rate @ 30 fps
2048 x 1080 x 4 x 10 x 30 = 2,654,208,000 bits/ second

Canon 2K: RGB 4:4:4@12 -bit Data Rate at 30 fps
2048 x 1080 x 3 x 12 x 30 = 2,388,787,200 bits / second

Both of these data streams fit comfortably within the 3G SDI interface standard. For higher frame rates
– up to 60P – the elevated data rates (still less than 6 Gbps) will require two 3G SDI interfaces.
To meet those two bit-depth constraints without compromising restoration of the higher bit-depth of
the image sensor output in postproduction resort was made to an alternative bit rate reduction strategy
– namely, logarithmic encoding of the image sensor linear representation (according to the
mathematically prescribed Canon Log). Specifically, the high bit depth of the image sensor digital
outputs are logarithmically transformed to a 10-bit depth for the 4K mode, and to a 12-bit (with 10-bit
as a selectable option) for the 2K mode. This is a completely reversible process. While Canon does not
disclose the bit depth of our A/D converter – we do affirm that the linearization process (de-Canon Log)
can reproduce the linear representation at 12-bit, 14-bit, or 16-bit (DPX or Open EXR)."

http://learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/white_papers/White_Paper_originatinghighqualityc500.pdf

(bold emphasis added)

[mkabi]

3 hours ago, Kino said:

CinemaDNG is Adobe's RAW format (for example, the BMPC-4K records RAW using CDNG), but it is only promised in a future Atomos firmware update for the Inferno (as mentioned on their website). When it is released, you will be able to record up to 30fps from the C500 in CDNG on the Inferno. Nothing else has been specified regarding CDNG recording in the Inferno. For example, will it retain the 10 bit logarithmic RAW signal, which is crucial to unpacking Canon Cinema RAW in post? With RMF, you can process your files to ensure proper unpacking of the 10 bit log. I'm not sure how it will work with CDNG. What will happen with the four lattices of the Bayer sensor data I referenced above? These data streams must be recorded properly to ensure effective demosaicing in post to retain the C500's outstanding resolution and anti-aliasing performance in 4K. As for 2K 12 bit RGB 4:4:4, it is not even supported in the Inferno, let alone ProRes 4:4:4:4.

Some of the links I posted above go into the specifics and unique attributes of Canon cinema RAW, which is quite different from almost any other RAW implementation since the Canon RAW has much larger data rates (moreover, ISO is baked-in and white balance is set). For this reason, I would prefer to remain within Canon's RMF workflow (or DPX, as the Odyssey records the 2K 12 bit RGB 4:4:4 into this compatible format) as it is crucial to extracting the most faithful recording from the 3G-SDI data streams. Here is a section from one of Canon's white papers on Canon Cinema RAW in the C500:

"Management of C500 Output Data Rate – Logarithmic Encoding

Considerations of RAW data rate outputs from the EOS C500 differ from that of most other single sensor
cameras – and they are two-fold:

1. In close consultation with no less than five separate digital recording manufacturers we
established a consensus on a maximum camera data rate output that could be managed by each
(even though each had different recording strategies)

2. Very important – Canon specifically wanted to use the SMPTE ST 425-1:2011 serial 3G SDI
interface as the transport mechanism for our RAW data – in order to facilitate:

o A standardized (and universal) serial digital delivery to each of the disparate recorders
o Passage of the camera output RAW data into broadcast 4K/2K/HD infrastructures that
utilize standardized 3G SDI system elements (camera CCUs, routers, encoders etc)

Accordingly, the RAW data rate output is constrained to less than 3Gbps for both 4K and 2K having
frame rates up to 30P – so only one 3G SDI interface would be required.

This data rate was achieved without resorting to compression by constraining the camera output to a
bit depth of 10-bit for the 4K RAW and to 12-bit for the 2K RAW – as outlined in the following:

Canon 4K: 4444 Bayer RAW Data rate @ 30 fps
2048 x 1080 x 4 x 10 x 30 = 2,654,208,000 bits/ second

Canon 2K: RGB 4:4:4@12 -bit Data Rate at 30 fps
2048 x 1080 x 3 x 12 x 30 = 2,388,787,200 bits / second

Both of these data streams fit comfortably within the 3G SDI interface standard. For higher frame rates
– up to 60P – the elevated data rates (still less than 6 Gbps) will require two 3G SDI interfaces.
To meet those two bit-depth constraints without compromising restoration of the higher bit-depth of
the image sensor output in postproduction resort was made to an alternative bit rate reduction strategy
– namely, logarithmic encoding of the image sensor linear representation (according to the
mathematically prescribed Canon Log). Specifically, the high bit depth of the image sensor digital
outputs are logarithmically transformed to a 10-bit depth for the 4K mode, and to a 12-bit (with 10-bit
as a selectable option) for the 2K mode. This is a completely reversible process. While Canon does not
disclose the bit depth of our A/D converter – we do affirm that the linearization process (de-Canon Log)
can reproduce the linear representation at 12-bit, 14-bit, or 16-bit (DPX or Open EXR)."

http://learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/white_papers/White_Paper_originatinghighqualityc500.pdf

(bold emphasis added)

This is just an assumption, but I would think that they (as in Atomos) are trying to support the Canon cameras as well as Sony Cams.

You can see this with so many firmware updates even with the original shogun - constantly saying the C500 is supported (with this or that update) is kind of encouraging.

Also, they have more than one 3G SDI inputs now in the inferno, compared to the single input of the original Shogun - its more suited to receive dual signals. May be its not a perfect solution, but its something... not that I'm trying to defend them, but Odyssey is sounding more and more out of my reach as I read on it...

The downside of the Odyssey:

-After you purchase your Odyssey for $1795 - you have to pay an extra $999 for the Canon RAW license.

-Even if you say... hey... $2795 is nothing... I'm already there... from all I'm reading... when you record Canon RAW - its literally 1hour = 1tb. So 2 hours = 2 tb HD, in comparison, you can get 8 hours with the 1DC on 2tb. So, how many SSDs are you buying for this beast?

-Speaking of SSDs, Odyssey's SSD support is limited to their proprietary ones and Samsung's SSD????

-And this is the single biggest deal breaker for me... its not portable. You are looking at third party solutions of V-mount, D-tap, some third part company that will add battery plates to the odyssey... I think the cheapest add-on plate is $89 bucks... but the price of batteries is not cheap.

I'm not going to list the upsides/dowsides of the Atomos, but it comes with 2 sony batteries and its hotswappable

Nonetheless, whats really bugging me right now is the following statement:

"Some of the links I posted above go into the specifics and unique attributes of Canon cinema RAW, which is quite different from almost any other RAW implementation since the Canon RAW has much larger data rates (moreover, ISO is baked-in and white balance is set)."

Am I reading this right???

Its RAW with large data rates, but ISO is baked in and WB is set?

How is it RAW then? Or rather what makes it RAW?

 

 

[Kino]

I do not see the C500 support as particularly high on the Atomos agenda. I could be wrong, but the Inferno is simply the wrong device for capturing C500 footage in all its different output modes, even with the two SDI connectors. They may get there someday, but it's a huge gamble to assume that everything is coming in future upgrades. DVXuser is one place to look for how the C500 works or doesn't work with Atomos recorders. The Odyssey may be a bitter pill for some, but it is one you have to take to work with the C500.

The extra fee for the RAW license is unfortunate, I agree. Of course, without the license you can still shoot the camera in 4K ProRes (up to 30p) and 2K 12 bit RGB 4:4:4, which upscales incredibly well to 4K as both are derived from the same 4 x 2K lattices I mentioned above. Compare 4K and 2K (here only at 10 bit) starting at 1:57 in this test by Hurlbut:

Aside from the Human Voice trailer I linked above, here are some other examples of 2K 12 bit RGB 4:4:4 (shown in HD without upscaling):

 

 

 

There are many more of those lens tests from Cooke Optics using the C500's 2K RGB mode on Vimeo. Cooke also has some slow motion examples shot in 60fps (10 bit RGB) and 120fps (10 bit YCC) and recorded on the Codex.

The Odyssey for its part records onto Samsung 850 EVO drives that cost $320 for 1TB or you can go for the Samsung 850 PRO 1TB at $420 (or any of the 850 Pro line that are smaller and cheaper). That will give you one hour of 4K RAW at 24p, 2.5 hours of 4K ProRes 4:2:2 HQ, or 5.5 hours of 4K ProRes 4:2:2 LT. In terms of cost per GB, I would say that is a very competitive price when compared with RED mini-mags or CF 2.0 cards, for example. You can also take your SSD, stick it into a drive bay, and start editing right away.

I do agree that the battery solution is not ideal, but the optional battery adapter on the back works with Canon C300/C500 batteries and gives you around 1.5 to 2 hours of continuous recording from everything I have read. It's a much lighter solution than attaching a V-lock on rails. You would be carrying the same battery that the camera uses, so I think it is an ideal setup in that sense. You can also mount the recorder to the camera in numerous ways depending on if you want to go with rails or not.

[Kino]

16 hours ago, mkabi said:

Nonetheless, whats really bugging me right now is the following statement:

"Some of the links I posted above go into the specifics and unique attributes of Canon cinema RAW, which is quite different from almost any other RAW implementation since the Canon RAW has much larger data rates (moreover, ISO is baked-in and white balance is set)."

Am I reading this right???

Its RAW with large data rates, but ISO is baked in and WB is set?

How is it RAW then? Or rather what makes it RAW?

Yes, ISO and WB are set or "baked-in" to a certain degree, as seen in Canon's white paper: 

Of course, WB can be easily manipulated in the RMF files in post as with any RAW format. As for ISO, like the Panasonic Varicam, the C500 employs analog gain control (as Policar already mentioned on page one of the thread). Combined with its noise performance, this allows for outstanding low-light abilities for a cinema camera.

I'm not here to defend Canon's, Sony's, RED's or any other manufacturer's definition of "RAW." I would only point out that Canon's Cinema RAW offers some unique features:

Compared with conventional approaches, this image processing chain results in improvements and advantages in the following areas relevant to the four color data streams: color separation, demosaicing, resolution, and anti-aliasing. This is why some have noted that the C500's 4K resolves a very high level of detail per pixel (something that is also true of the C300 II).

Moreover, like ARRIRAW, Canon Cinema RAW reaches an insanely high data rate. In fact, a Canon RMF file delivers more data per frame (over 11 MB) than almost any other 4K RAW format with the exception of ARRIRAW in open gate, which matches Canon’s data rate of 11 MB per frame, but at a lower resolution than 4K.

For these reasons, and despite fixing ISO at the time of shooting, Canon RAW is a formidable format that was apparently designed as the antithesis to Redcode, which has relatively low data rates, no analog gain, poor ISO/noise performance, and high compression in the green color channels. In this way, you can think of Canon RAW as diametrically opposed to Redcode. The latter has its own advantages of course in terms of reducing storage and unlocking 5K, 6K and 8K recording in a very portable camera package and easily manageable RAW format for editing. Nevertheless, I would say that RED has a lot more to answer for than Canon when it comes to defining its format as "RAW," considering how much sensor data is discarded in Redcode compression.

 

[Dogtown]

Okay, I think it's time to go or the C500 I'm going to by a new one as you get a warranty! even though you can get these now used as low as $4,000 I anything could happen knowing murphy's law. So spending the extra for new is worth it. It's a big jump but I feel one that will keep myself and clients very happy. I decided to also spring for a PIX E5, and just go for the 10 or 12 bit 444 up to 60p it look's like you can access this with one 3G SDI port! Anyway I'll keep you posted with my happy C500 trails n tales.

 

Broatch  

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, Dogtown said:

I decided to also spring for a PIX E5

Love to know how that turns out as well As I'm thinking of that for my F3 perhaps. See how it performs on looooong takes in summer?

[Dogtown]

IronFilm, I decided to go with the Odyssey Q7+ I have an F3 as well and on the site of Video Devices, for cameras supported it stated 720p for the F3 only? I called them and have not got the call back from their support team on weather the Pix E5 does capture the 444 RGB 1080p 10-12 bit through the single SDI F3 output. When I hear back I'll post their reply.

[IronFilm]

I've noticed the C500 PL is selling even cheaper than than EF mount, if you're lucky enough to own PL lenses to use with the bargain C500. 

[zerocool22]

I think the ursa mini pro is a better option right now (unless you need low light).

More DR, build in raw recorder, prores.

[Laurier]

I was considering it too , but I went for a ursa mini 4.6k.
I never liked external recorders, it s more batteries to manage, more cables around, the whole thing is bigger ect...

You should go red or blackmagic IMO
 

[Ed_David]

Yes, save yourself the headaches of external recorder, etc.  Go Blackmagic Ursa Mini 4.6k or Micro

[Andrew Reid]

51 minutes ago, Ed_David said:

Yes, save yourself the headaches of external recorder, etc.  Go Blackmagic Ursa Mini 4.6k or Micro

Isn't a V-lock battery just as much hassle though?

It weighs more

It doesn't last very long on the Ursa

It's pretty huge

Just like an external monitor

The C500 is fantastic but there is something about a mirrorless camera which turns me on.... I haven't used my C500 nearly as much as I expected to. Overkill maybe?

[BenEricson]

1 hour ago, Ed_David said:

Yes, save yourself the headaches of external recorder, etc.  Go Blackmagic Ursa Mini 4.6k or Micro

 

On 3/14/2017 at 3:35 AM, Laurier said:

I was considering it too , but I went for a ursa mini 4.6k.
I never liked external recorders, it s more batteries to manage, more cables around, the whole thing is bigger ect...

You should go red or blackmagic IMO
 

Unless you go Ursa Mini Pro, the headaches of external NDs is still a factor to consider. Canon color is really nice. It depends what you're shooting I guess. This is one reliable setup though, professionally used for years and years. You also can shoot that lovely Canon baked in color...

[Laurier]

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Isn't a V-lock battery just as much hassle though?

It weighs more

It doesn't last very long on the Ursa

It's pretty huge

Just like an external monitor

The C500 is fantastic but there is something about a mirrorless camera which turns me on.... I haven't used my C500 nearly as much as I expected to. Overkill maybe?

The ursa mini  is actually using less power than a red or an alexa, I use Core SWX HyperCore Slim V-Mount Battery , they are fairly small and lightweight, they last around 1.30 hours
The mini is really made for shoulder rig use so the whole thing make sense.

I m quite sure a C500 + recorder will end up weighting more than a ursa mini or a red .

I had a lot of issues with external recorders in the past, it s just not my thing.

[Ed_David]

v mount or anton bauer batteries are pretty lightweight and yea - last a long time.

variable nds by tiffen are good and easy to throw on a lens.

Yea, c300 and c500 are used a lot - but so was the hvx200 and dvx100, and not many people are shooting on them.

Who cares what people use - find what you love on your own and use that.  Don't listen to trends.  Trust your gut.

[Geoff CB]

 

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 7:28 PM, BenEricson said:

the native EF lens mount. You can throw on another 600 for the metabones adapter to the FS7 price. 

 

I just do not understand how this is a positive, in this price bracket I want the ability to rent and use PL glass. Anything can be adapted to E mount, it's a superior mount to EF unless you use exclusively EF glass.

[BenEricson]

16 minutes ago, Geoff CB said:

 

I just do not understand how this is a positive, in this price bracket I want the ability to rent and use PL glass. Anything can be adapted to E mount, it's a superior mount to EF unless you use exclusively EF glass.

It all depends what you're doing. Metabones sells a lot of adapters...

2 hours ago, Ed_David said:

Who cares what people use - find what you love on your own and use that.  Don't listen to trends.  Trust your gut.

Best advice.