Canon C500 Is it worth 7K new?

[Kino]

On 9/14/2016 at 0:30 AM, IronFilm said:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-PMW-F5-with-2x128gb-sxs-nikon-mount-and-PL-mount-/122061521942

Holy crap, a Sony F5 has fallen to extremely outrageously low prices!!! :-o :-o :-o Man, wish I had 10 grand spare... :-o :-o :-o

So yeah, if a person could score a deal like that then they should go for it over a Canon C500 I reckon.

The winning bid was $6,000, which sounds unreal! The owner must have been really desperate to sell.

The Sony F5 is one of the reasons why the C300 II could not really compete at $16K (the other reasons are the FS7 at $8K and Canon's own C100 II and C300, of course). 16 bit RAW vs. 10 bit 4:2:2 (with YCC color space) is not much of a competition. Unfortunately, the best mode for the C300 II is the 2K 12 bit RGB 4:4:4 (similar to the C500):

It's a shame they can't make that available for 4K internal, since it would make for an incredible camera.

Dogtown, if you are going to the $10-15K market, and you want a cinema camera as opposed to a doc/ENG/event cam, you should definitely check out a used Epic (MX sensor). They are still producing some of the best footage in this segment:

 

[mercer]

@Kino is Interior Silence shot with the 2K 12bit mode you referenced and is that internal or externally recorded, because that sample looks gorgeous. 

[Kino]

3 minutes ago, mercer said:

@Kino is Interior Silence shot with the 2K 12bit mode you referenced and is that internal or externally recorded, because that sample looks gorgeous. 

Internal. It's right there in the C300 II menu. And, yes, it is really gorgeous!

[Kino]

I think we should also mention that, in the hands of a real pro like Canon's own Brent Ramsey, the C300 II is capable of stunning internal 4K:

It's amazing to think that this was shot in the camera's internal XF-AVC 10 bit 4:2:2 (YCC). Canon always gets the best possible colors, skin tones, and DR out of any 8-bit or 10-bit codec. There are many RAW cameras that don't deliver this type of 4K image quality. Here is a useful article about image processing in the C300 II:

http://www.thedithouse.com/on-set-data-management-transcoding-dailies-systems/canon-digital-slr-workflows/

Unfortunately, a lot of the C300 II 4K footage available online does not do justice to the camera's full potential.

[BenEricson]

4 hours ago, Kino said:

I think we should also mention that, in the hands of a real pro like Canon's own Brent Ramsey, the C300 II is capable of stunning internal 4K:

It's amazing to think that this was shot in the camera's internal XF-AVC 10 bit 4:2:2 (YCC).

I don't think anyone is surprised. Anyone, whether pro or beginner, will produce better looking color with the Canon.

Here's a couple stills from a recent project. Not exactly beauty lighting like above, but the first interview I lit with 1x1 panel through a 5/1 and a handheld battery LED for backlight. The second is natural light. Super quick setup, works for doc work. I would imagine ARRIs through some diffusion in a studio setting will produce skin like the ones above.

I'm actually editing some F5 footage right now. The C300 looks better in worse lighting. You have to try harder to get a better image with the sony cameras, whether that be in lighting/color correct etc. The canon nails it. 

[K Jonathan Park]

I've read all the comments and learned a lot. I am still torn away between FS7 and C500+Atomos Inferno since they are relatively the same price. My budget is under $10k for a camera and another $10k for the lens. I mainly do TV and documentary but would like to do more short films and commercials in near future. Most of my clients ask for HD for now. Some DPs suggested me to buy a RED scarlet-w and rent the lens until I save another 10k for lens and others told me to keep my a7rii and rent the big boys. But I found myself very uncomfortable when I am on set with new gears.

So what should I buy?

[BenEricson]

2 hours ago, K Jonathan Park said:

I've read all the comments and learned a lot. I am still torn away between FS7 and C500+Atomos Inferno since they are relatively the same price. My budget is under $10k for a camera and another $10k for the lens. I mainly do TV and documentary but would like to do more short films and commercials in near future. Most of my clients ask for HD for now. Some DPs suggested me to buy a RED scarlet-w and rent the lens until I save another 10k for lens and others told me to keep my a7rii and rent the big boys. But I found myself very uncomfortable when I am on set with new gears.

So what should I buy?

It sounds like the Sony FS7 gets asked for a lot and has industry recognition. Personally, I think the C500 producer much nicer images, the C300ii as well.

[Kino]

4 hours ago, K Jonathan Park said:

I've read all the comments and learned a lot. I am still torn away between FS7 and C500+Atomos Inferno since they are relatively the same price. My budget is under $10k for a camera and another $10k for the lens. I mainly do TV and documentary but would like to do more short films and commercials in near future. Most of my clients ask for HD for now. Some DPs suggested me to buy a RED scarlet-w and rent the lens until I save another 10k for lens and others told me to keep my a7rii and rent the big boys. But I found myself very uncomfortable when I am on set with new gears.

So what should I buy?

I would cross out the Scarlet-W right away. You are looking at $15K minimum to get up and running and the waiting time is very long. I know because I ordered many months ago and I'm still near the back of the queue with no allocation in sight. Moreover, the RED cameras are not ideal for documentary, have very poor on-board sound options, and would introduce a steep learning curve for someone who shoots primarily with a Sony A7RII.

I would also stay away from the C500 + RAW recorder option unless you have used this exact combination before and know all the quirks involved. There are simply too many things that can go wrong here. In addition, adding the recorder means that you lose the hand-held advantages of the Canon bodies, so it really defeats their purpose for me.

If you can afford the C300 II, and you don't need 4K HFR, I would definitely choose that option. Otherwise, the FS7 is also an excellent choice and has much better slow motion than the C300 II. You can't go wrong with either one of those. Best of luck!

[BenEricson]

12 hours ago, Kino said:

I would also stay away from the C500 + RAW recorder option unless you have used this exact combination before and know all the quirks involved. There are simply too many things that can go wrong here. In addition, adding the recorder means that you lose the hand-held advantages of the Canon bodies, so it really defeats their purpose for me.

I've seen you mention this a lot. I've used the FS700/7Q quite a bit with no problems. I've used the 7Q on the F3 as well. Always been 100 percent reliable. 

I always go straight to Pro Res. The workflow is incredibly smooth. Yes, the setup is big, but a monitor like that is so handy. If you shoot a lot of interviews, this would probably be a great choice. Obviously if you need a smaller kit/run and gun, the FS7 or C300ii is probably a better choice.

[Kino]

4 hours ago, BenEricson said:

I've seen you mention this a lot. I've used the FS700/7Q quite a bit with no problems. I've used the 7Q on the F3 as well. Always been 100 percent reliable. 

I always go straight to Pro Res. The workflow is incredibly smooth. Yes, the setup is big, but a monitor like that is so handy. If you shoot a lot of interviews, this would probably be a great choice. Obviously if you need a smaller kit/run and gun, the FS7 or C300ii is probably a better choice.

I only mention it because I am very close to cancelling my Scarlet-W order and going with the C500 and Odyssey 7Q+ instead. I absolutely love the C500 image and with the recent price drop, I think it's a much more attractive setup for me (and a little cheaper). I just have to look more into rigging options for hand-held use. For some reason, the Canon engineers removed the hand grip when implementing the 4K output into the C300 body.

I've been researching the C500 recorder options for a while and have read about problems and quirks with other recorders. For example, Jonathan mentioned using the C500 with the Atomos. According to what I've read, unlike the Odyssey, the Atomos cannot record the 120fps RAW signal from the C500. That's why I mentioned to Jonathan that he should know the exact combination of the recorder he wants to use and confirm that all the functions are enabled with that recorder.

Of course, it's great to hear about your problem-free experience with the Odyssey. With the RAW upgrade package, it is a $2700 recorder so it better work without a hitch!

[BenEricson]

19 minutes ago, Kino said:

Of course, it's great to hear about your problem-free experience with the Odyssey. With the RAW upgrade package, it is a $2700 recorder so it better work without a hitch!

Exactly. Convergent Design is actually really really good about updating the firmware. The monitor is incredibly intuitive and has every feature you would want/need out of a pro monitor. 

That setup seems like a steal to me. 

[IronFilm]

Holy crap that F5 did indeed sell for very little! Damn. Wish I could have got that.

Anyway, for the OP.... get an FS7, is a widely recognized and demanded camera which will get you work,

[BenEricson]

15 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Holy crap that F5 did indeed sell for very little! Damn. Wish I could have got that.

Anyway, for the OP.... get an FS7, is a widely recognized and demanded camera which will get you work,

I just checked FS7 prices. Were they always 8500? Seems pretty close to C300ii, a F5 used is cheaper...

[IronFilm]

FS7 was very *slightly* cheaper until recently when Sony just put in all the price increases across the board for their cameras.

C300 mk2 was up until recently *DOUBLE* the price of a FS7, but then Canon some weeks ago (well, more like a few months ago now? Forget the exact date, you can google it, was still very recent) put in a *massive* price drop on the C300 mk2 because it wasn't selling. But even after the big price drop, you're looking at paying thousands of dollars more for a Canon C300 mk2 than for a FS7 (and C300 mk2 has less features than a FS7).

 

Most secondhand F5 will go for more than a new FS7 (though I've seen some surprising rare exceptions! Such as what I posted). Still, isn't too fair to compare used vs new.

[BenEricson]

22 hours ago, IronFilm said:

But even after the big price drop, you're looking at paying thousands of dollars more for a Canon C300 mk2 than for a FS7 (and C300 mk2 has less features than a FS7).

So many people say this. All depends if you need the features. The Sony FS7 also has less features than the C300ii in many respects. Auto Focus is HUGE on that camera, so is the color and the native EF lens mount. You can throw on another 600 for the metabones adapter to the FS7 price. 

Curious, what does the F5 offer that the FS7 does not, and vise versa. I know there's the PL mount option for better glass, and color space will be better on the F5, (although Sony owners will say color is fixable in the grade.  Is there anything additional?

[mkabi]

On 9/19/2016 at 7:58 PM, Kino said:

I only mention it because I am very close to cancelling my Scarlet-W order and going with the C500 and Odyssey 7Q+ instead. I absolutely love the C500 image and with the recent price drop, I think it's a much more attractive setup for me (and a little cheaper). I just have to look more into rigging options for hand-held use. For some reason, the Canon engineers removed the hand grip when implementing the 4K output into the C300 body.

I've been researching the C500 recorder options for a while and have read about problems and quirks with other recorders. For example, Jonathan mentioned using the C500 with the Atomos. According to what I've read, unlike the Odyssey, the Atomos cannot record the 120fps RAW signal from the C500. That's why I mentioned to Jonathan that he should know the exact combination of the recorder he wants to use and confirm that all the functions are enabled with that recorder.

Of course, it's great to hear about your problem-free experience with the Odyssey. With the RAW upgrade package, it is a $2700 recorder so it better work without a hitch!

Not an expert here, but didn't Andrew write that the C500 doesn't really output 4K 120fps RAW - its half RAW?

4096X1080p - and it conforms it to 30/25/24p.

There is another option? A blurry 4K 120fps too.

In any case, there is a scene in Wolf of Wall Street, where Jonah Hills about to vomit. I think they used a C500 for that scene. Its extremely distinguishable compared to other scenes, because of the softness.

[Kino]

11 hours ago, mkabi said:

Not an expert here, but didn't Andrew write that the C500 doesn't really output 4K 120fps RAW - its half RAW?

4096X1080p - and it conforms it to 30/25/24p.

There is another option? A blurry 4K 120fps too.

In any case, there is a scene in Wolf of Wall Street, where Jonah Hills about to vomit. I think they used a C500 for that scene. Its extremely distinguishable compared to other scenes, because of the softness.

The C500 does 60fps in RAW DCI 4K (4096 x 2160), but it requires two SSDs and a data rate of over 700 MB/s! By comparison, that is 7x the 1DX II's 60fps data rate of 100 MB/s (800 Mbps).

But at 120fps HRAW, indeed you are only getting half the vertical resolution at 4096 x 1080, with two options as to how you conform the material in post, as Andrew mentioned in his review:

http://www.eoshd.com/2016/06/4k-raw-120fps-3k-say-hello-second-hand-canon-c500/

The problem with the Atomos recorders is that they only have one SSD. This means that they can't record the C500's 60fps RAW or 120fps HRAW. I believe Atomos lists 60fps ProRes recording from the C500, but I have not seen any user reports confirming this. In any case, if you own a C500 (or one of the Sony cameras that does HFR RAW), you need the Odyssey.

As for Scorsese film, I only know that they used the C500 on the drone shots. It's entirely possible they shot that slow motion sequence in HRAW 120 fps. I'll have to go back and look at it, but I don't remember any distracting aliasing in the image (which I would expect, depending on how they dealt with it in post). Suffice it to say, you would not want to use too much footage in HRAW 120fps. A little here and there is fine. The motorcycle documentary I linked to above used the C500 HRAW 120fps extensively, if you want to see what it looks like in a production.

[mkabi]

2 hours ago, Kino said:

The C500 does 60fps in RAW DCI 4K (4096 x 2160), but it requires two SSDs and a data rate of over 700 MB/s! By comparison, that is 7x the 1DX II's 60fps data rate of 100 MB/s (800 Mbps).

But at 120fps HRAW, indeed you are only getting half the vertical resolution at 4096 x 1080, with two options as to how you conform the material in post, as Andrew mentioned in his review:

http://www.eoshd.com/2016/06/4k-raw-120fps-3k-say-hello-second-hand-canon-c500/

The problem with the Atomos recorders is that they only have one SSD. This means that they can't record the C500's 60fps RAW or 120fps HRAW. I believe Atomos lists 60fps ProRes recording from the C500, but I have not seen any user reports confirming this. In any case, if you own a C500 (or one of the Sony cameras that does HFR RAW), you need the Odyssey.

As for Scorsese film, I only know that they used the C500 on the drone shots. It's entirely possible they shot that slow motion sequence in HRAW 120 fps. I'll have to go back and look at it, but I don't remember any distracting aliasing in the image (which I would expect, depending on how they dealt with it in post). Suffice it to say, you would not want to use too much footage in HRAW 120fps. A little here and there is fine. The motorcycle documentary I linked to above used the C500 HRAW 120fps extensively, if you want to see what it looks like in a production.

I'm confused, why does it need 2 SSDs?

Is it to get a data rate of over 700 MB/s?

Doesn't that mean its writing on both SSDs too?

If thats true, how can we conform the format from the 2 SSDs to one?

Lastly, where are you getting this information? Cause I would want to read more into it, as a possible purchaser of the C500 + Odyssey or Shogun Inferno.

 

[Kino]

12 hours ago, mkabi said:

I'm confused, why does it need 2 SSDs?

Is it to get a data rate of over 700 MB/s?

Doesn't that mean its writing on both SSDs too?

If thats true, how can we conform the format from the 2 SSDs to one?

Lastly, where are you getting this information? Cause I would want to read more into it, as a possible purchaser of the C500 + Odyssey or Shogun Inferno.

 

4K RAW @ 60fps is recorded in a frame-interval system, where even frames go to one SSD while odd frames end up on the other. That's the only way for the C500 to record HFR in Canon's RMF (Raw Media Format), as it utilizes two 3G-SDI connectors to transfer the massive data rates I noted above. Recall that each 3G-SDI connector in the C500 is outputting 4 2K streams, which have to be recombined to create the 4K or 2K RMF file recorded by the Odyssey:

At 60fps using frame-interval recording on dual SSDs, you have two sets of these 4x data streams. That would explain the insane 700 MB/s data rate.

[Btw, the two green data streams or lattices, which form an over-sampled "super green," also have implications for suppressing aliasing and enhancing resolution and MTF, properties that are evident in C500 footage at both 2K and 4K: http://www.provideocoalition.com/nab-2012-canon-c300-image-processing/]

The Odyssey allows for this dual SSD recording as does Codex, for example. Atomos states that the Inferno will not ship with any type of RAW recording. Instead, they are promising 4K RAW in future firmware updates, but only up to 30fps. The Inferno does list 4K ProRes up to 60 fps:

https://www.atomos.com/shogun-inferno

Aside from the lack of 4K RAW 60fps and HRAW 120 fps on the Inferno, you would also be missing a whole bunch of other functions, including 2K 120 fps (10 bit YCC) and 2K 12 Bit RGB 4:4:4, which is one of the C500's headline features. Both are included on the Odyssey (120fps 1080/2K is not listed here but definitely supported):

https://www.convergent-design.com/canon-eos-c500

I understand that the Inferno will have a lovely HDR display, better sound options, and a friendlier interface, but it is simply not suited to unlocking the C500's numerous recording modes.

More info on the C500's workflow can be found all over the web. However, not all of it is reliable or up-to-date so it's best to read as broadly as you can and to check for Canon and Odyssey firmware updates to see what features are currently supported. A primer on Canon's unique approach to cinema RAW can be found at these links, including info on the diagram posted above:

http://blog.michaeldanielho.com/2014/02/understanding-how-canon-cinema-raw-works.html

http://blog.abelcine.com/2012/11/05/what-exactly-is-canon-raw/

 

[mkabi]

10 hours ago, Kino said:

4K RAW @ 60fps is recorded in a frame-interval system, where even frames go to one SSD while odd frames end up on the other. That's the only way for the C500 to record HFR in Canon's RMF (Raw Media Format), as it utilizes two 3G-SDI connectors to transfer the massive data rates I noted above. Recall that each 3G-SDI connector in the C500 is outputting 4 2K streams, which have to be recombined to create the 4K or 2K RMF file recorded by the Odyssey:

At 60fps using frame-interval recording on dual SSDs, you have two sets of these 4x data streams. That would explain the insane 700 MB/s data rate.

[Btw, the two green data streams or lattices, which form an over-sampled "super green," also have implications for suppressing aliasing and enhancing resolution and MTF, properties that are evident in C500 footage at both 2K and 4K: http://www.provideocoalition.com/nab-2012-canon-c300-image-processing/]

The Odyssey allows for this dual SSD recording as does Codex, for example. Atomos states that the Inferno will not ship with any type of RAW recording. Instead, they are promising 4K RAW in future firmware updates, but only up to 30fps. The Inferno does list 4K ProRes up to 60 fps:

https://www.atomos.com/shogun-inferno

Aside from the lack of 4K RAW 60fps and HRAW 120 fps on the Inferno, you would also be missing a whole bunch of other functions, including 2K 120 fps (10 bit YCC) and 2K 12 Bit RGB 4:4:4, which is one of the C500's headline features. Both are included on the Odyssey (120fps 1080/2K is not listed here but definitely supported):

https://www.convergent-design.com/canon-eos-c500

I understand that the Inferno will have a lovely HDR display, better sound options, and a friendlier interface, but it is simply not suited to unlocking the C500's numerous recording modes.

More info on the C500's workflow can be found all over the web. However, not all of it is reliable or up-to-date so it's best to read as broadly as you can and to check for Canon and Odyssey firmware updates to see what features are currently supported. A primer on Canon's unique approach to cinema RAW can be found at these links, including info on the diagram posted above:

http://blog.michaeldanielho.com/2014/02/understanding-how-canon-cinema-raw-works.html

http://blog.abelcine.com/2012/11/05/what-exactly-is-canon-raw/

 

Thanks Kino, very enlightening. 

After reading and researching further, you have to merge the .rmf clips from the 2 hard drives with Convergent Design's Clip Merger app.

What if I don't want to pay that extra $1000 to unlock Canon RAW on the Odyssey... well... at least not right away...

Can you still output the 4K RAW and/or 4K HRAW @ 120fps and record it on the Odyssey as pro res.?

I understand that the max. the Odyssey will do in Pro Res is 4K at 30p... so will the 4K 120fps output be rerecorded as 4K 30p Pro Res (slowed down)? (I know Andrew laid it out, but it wasn't really specific enough in the article: http://www.eoshd.com/2016/06/4k-raw-120fps-3k-say-hello-second-hand-canon-c500/)