Julian Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Interesting move: http://www.deadline.com/2013/02/lawsuit-red-digital-cinemas-sony-corp-the-hobbit-cameras/ Red Digital today sued Sony Corp for patent infringement. The high-tech camera manufacturer’s complaint (read it here) Tuesday claims that three cameras made by defendants Sony Electronics and Sony Corporation of America “all embody the subject matter claimed in Red’s asserted patents without any license.†The federal court filing adds that “Red is informed and believes and thereupon alleges that the sale of Sony’s unauthorized, infringing cameras has resulted in lost sales, reduced the business and profit of Red, and greatly injured the general reputation of Red.†Alleging two instances of “willful and wanton†patent infringement on technology used in its Red One camera, Red is seeking a court order that its patents are “valid and enforceable†as well as an injunction against Sony’s F65, F55 and F5 cameras to stop their further sale and have them destroyed. Official document here: http://www-deadline-com.vimg.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/RED-DIGITAL-SONY-PATENT-SUIT__130213155619.pdf These are the patents RED says Sony is infringing: http://news.priorsmart.com/redcom-v-sony-corporation-of-america-l7D8/ Reading patents is a pain in the ass, but glancing over them, those patents look kinda broad... The patents are filed in 2008/2009, but granted in 2012 and one of them was granted on January 22nd 2013. I guess that explains why 'suddenly' RED is onto Sony. Bad losers, or do they have a point? Some interesting insights here: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/514305-red-sues-sony-regarding-f5-f55-patent-infringments.html#4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cinefilms Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company#Lawsuits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Cunningham Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I've no love for Sony, no vested interest in RED (yet) but this is what you get with the liberalization of patents that happened not too long ago, allowing corporations to snap up patents for stuff they never created just so that they could use the legal system as a weapon and as a means to subvert free enterprise and create monopolies with one hand while fighting them with the other. It's just sorta funny that this time it's David wielding patent law at Goliath instead of the other way around. edit: holy crap, RED sued Andrew (dismissed) nahua and Leang 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuickHitRecord Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 edit: holy crap, RED sued Andrew (dismissed) Over what, blogging about his IQ tests and opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Y Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 It does read very broadly. What can be infringed and sued over are the claims in the patents. For example, claim 1 of patent 8,174,560 describes a portable video camera that can compress 2K-resolution and higher RAWs by at least 6:1. If you have a portable video camera that does 5:1 RAW compression, or perhaps a video camera that's not portable or perhaps a video camera that does SD or something else that doesn't fit all of the specifications in the claim, then you haven't infringed. Claim 2 covers a color version of claim 1. More claims talk about where the storage may be (inside and outside the camera), and then more variations on a theme. It looks like they cover non-portable cameras too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcs Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Based on the way the patent claims are written, unless the patents are invalidated in court, RED can comfortably own the compressed RAW (6:1 or greater) market. It appears as long as the sensor data is de-Bayered to RGB/YCrCb, no infringement. 12-16+ bit H.264 (or H.265) would be pretty nice and without the massive file sizes: I would prefer that for my FS700 vs. the planned "4K" RAW support. BMCC is OK as it's uncompressed RAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Cunningham Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Over what, blogging about his IQ tests and opinions? On the WIKI listing all of their suits (there have surprisingly been a lot of them for such a young company) he's listed as a defendant. When I clicked through the reference it did point to something said here or elsewhere, in a blog. It was (didn't say what though) listed as dismissed though so apparently they weren't aware that it's not actually libel if someone can prove what they said is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leang Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Same old stories. In this case however, I think Red is a bit sour and scared for their beloved Redcode, and Red won't go anywhere with this claim. They're just gonna have to sit back and enjoy the ride and by the time it's dismissed Sony will have yet another new codec :P . For Red to do such a move shows how practical and strong XAVC will hold up in the time to come, and most likely great for general grading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 These patent wars are encroaching on - WE own the physical world and trying to play God. If Sony has nicked Reds ideas fine but to lay claim to existing physics is wrong. We were the first to record RAW therefore we own it is ridiculous. RAW is a state of being that can be compressed so while you can hold the right to the codec its wrong you can hold to the right to the physics of the thing like the compression ratio or to record outside of it or anything else that is not invented but part of the physical world. To allow patents to cover that will really stop the world from progressing and is stupid.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurtinMinorKey Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 My guess is that one of two things will happen: RED's compression methods aren't really that innovative, so they will fail prior art(turning a knob from 2:1 to 6:1 isn't an innovation over existing technology) and the patent will be invalidated. Or Sony will prove that their compression methods are substantively different, and therefore not infringing. And you guys think that patent law is screwed up? It's more like our entire civil court system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 My guess is they are extremely upset about the fact that Sony will outsell them 4:1 if not more, by providing a more balanced product in greater quantity at a lower price. Sour grapes and bahavior similar to Apple and other tech companies, it's a real shame. Intellectual property is such a bore. http://www.dslrnewsshooter.com/2013/01/28/matt-allard-goes-hands-on-with-the-new-sony-f55/ I doubt Red own wavelet compression, or other lossless techniques. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted April 8, 2013 Author Share Posted April 8, 2013 Sony starts the counter attack: http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-highend/Sony Comments re Patent Suit Filed Against Red Digital Cinema On April 5, 2013, Sony Corporation ("Sony") sued Red Digital Cinema ("Red") for infringing 7 of Sony's patents in the United States District Court for the Central District of California. Sony believes that the Red ONE, EPIC and SCARLET cameras, various digital still and motion camera modules, and various accessories such as the REDMOTE infringe our patents. Sony is seeking both money damages and an injunction to stop the continued sale of Red's infringing products. Sony makes significant investments into the research & development of technology related to the cinema camera industry and intends to protect those investments against companies that infringe our patents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amro Othman Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 Kind of lame and desperate for Red to sue Sony, who have been making video cameras since like, forever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 Meanwhile in black magic land... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 This is standard practice in mobile phone land. It was always going to come to the cameras! Everyone sues and counter sues. I remember seeing a huge spidery chart somewhere... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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