Nikon Mystery Solved!

[tugela]

2 hours ago, Damphousse said:

Do what?!  Release half baked cameras a year late?  If that is what you want buy a Blackmagic.  FYI I own a Canon AND a Blackmagic camera.  I use them both.  They are very different.  And I understand why each company does certain things differently.

Nikon is running a multibillion dollar profitable business.  You don't just write the CEO of Nikon and say do it.  "It" what exactly?  Like I asked you before are you privy to Blackmagic's financials?  It's real easy for arm chair warriors to tell companies to do "it".  A lot harder to tell them specifically what to do and how to do it profitably while not destroying their brand.

Everyone cheered Samsung along as their camera business imploded.  The level of hubris is amazing.  The voices of reason asked people to consider for a moment it isn't that simple and easy.  They were shouted down.  Samsung listened to all the people saying how easy it is.  Where is Samsung now?  What about gopro?  I loved everyone going on and on about how Canon should innovate like GoPro.  Where is GoPro's stock now?  Really how many times do you have to watch a stock completely crater or an entire camera business get shuttered before you realize it isn't just a matter of doing "it".

It is painfully clear to me there is a finite amount of money in this hybrid camera market.  If Panasonic really pulls off IBIS with internal 4k 10 bit 4:2:2 and decent low light 4 other camera makers are going to have their lunch eaten.

Samsung's camera's did not fail because their products were lacking at the end, they failed because of poor marketing, no other reason. If a company makes no effort to sell their products, they are not going to sell a whole lot no matter how good they are. To be accurate, Samsung failed because management chose to market the cameras in the same way that they marketed their cell phones, not understanding that it can't be done that way. If Samsung had remained in the business and continued developing their camera line they would have remained at the leading edge and sooner or later that fact would have had an impact on the market.

The market for cameras going forward is going to be largely in the consumer ICL and high end fixed lens models. Low end products will become obsolete as they are replaced by cell phones. This is where the bulk of camera revenue is going to come from. Mom and pop photographing their kids/holidays etc and wanting better quality than what a cell phone can produce. And recording video at the same time. These are the people who are going to be wowed by the footage that hybrids can produce. And no, they don't give a shit about 10 bit 4:2:2 and all those other things you guys salivate over. But they do understand why they want 4K when they see it. Any manufacturer who does not get this is going to fail in this critical sector of the market, where most of the revenue from cameras is going to come from.

Right now Canon and Nikon are falling way behind. Their cameras are physically too big for this market segment and they underspecced compared to the competing mirrorless brands. Sure, they sell a lot of product right now, but this is entirely due to brand recognition. That won't last forever. We see this even now, as companies like Sony continue to ship more product, while the likes of Canon see reduction. At some point the market is going to encounter a break point, when that brand recognition advantage, the common perception of inherent quality, is going to shift to the likes of Sony, and when that happens you are going to see Canon, and especially Nikon, vanish almost overnight in this segment. And this WILL happen, unless the senior management at both companies develop vision and can come to understand where the market is heading. It is quite clear: in the consumer market (which is where the revenue is) the hybrid is going to be king, while specialist still or video cameras will be purely the domain of professionals.

[Mattias Burling]

1 hour ago, mkabi said:

I'm beginning to think that mid-end IQ-savvy video market isn't very profitable... Samsung Cameras weren't the only ones to shut down, didn't Digital Bolex also call it quits.

They discontinued a model. And since they only had one camera... Imo its not exactly comparable to Samsung. 

[j-oc]

11 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

What I don't really get though is the scorn for Nikon and by extension its users for them not diving headlong into this stuff. They make very good chisels and people who just need chisels are quite happy with them. It doesn't mean these people don't know what a screwdriver is or even don't have a use for a screwdriver. They just, you know, use a screwdriver for that stuff.

Word.

I read the interview and, to be honest, I do share the sentiment from some in this thread that it is confusingly argued. With that said I don't find it in the least bit surprising that Nikon hasn't produced a high-end video camera. It is just not where their expertise is.

A myopia that both video and stills people share is that they both think that all camera users are like them - i.e. dedicated to their own visual form to the exclusion of all others. The reality is that that full-time working stills photographer and the enthusiast/one man band/small production video company are small minorities of the total users of cameras. Way more common these days are hybrid users who do a bit of both, like err... me.

Nikon now has a range of cameras that work perfectly for this market. Sure, there are some quibbles like a lack of focus peaking but for that they are, they are awesome tools. The amount of sales that Nikon would gain from developing some sort of cinema DSLR would not likely exceed the cost of development. Look at the 1DC - awesome machine but didn't set the world on fire sales-wise.

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

And 4k frame grabs from Panasonic are not helping the D5 or Canon 1DX ii sales much either. I would not want to be in Nikon's shoes in the near future.

No-one who uses a D5 or 1DXII, which is hardcore sports and new guys, is swapping to a GH4. I reckon stills from video is going to be a huge technology in the future but it is not there at the moment for professional use.

[ND64]

Canon Inc said on Tuesday its third quarter operating profit fell 48 percent, hurt by a strengthened yen following Britain's vote to leave the European Union.

and its market leader with 45% market share. imagine Nikon situation. 

[BTM_Pix]

5 hours ago, j-oc said:

No-one who uses a D5 or 1DXII, which is hardcore sports and new guys, is swapping to a GH4. I reckon stills from video is going to be a huge technology in the future but it is not there at the moment for professional use.

And I doubt we ever will.

There is an entire eco system involved that, as with Nikon evaluating getting into the cinema market, is just so well developed that it wouldn't make sense for other manufacturers to get involved. Its not just the obvious stuff like where are their 400mm 2.8s but everything else that is needed to get a picture from a camera to a picture desk in seconds under any sort of environmental conditions. That goes from everything like bullet proof wireless and ethernet modules through to the basic robustness needed to cope with the elements and the general physical battering they get. 

Its not that we don't want the advantages of mirrorless in terms of the weight reduction and cost reduction (particularly the ongoing highway robbery maintenance costs with shutter replacement) but unless it helps perform the overall task better than what we've got then we won't be changing. Ultimately, as RED found out with the RED ONE, its the overall task that really counts when its being used professionally rather than just the imaging module itself, as thats only one piece of the puzzle. If it doesn't fit into an overall eco system it'll be a big ask to get working pros to take a chance on it.

Because of that, when we go mirrorless - and we definitely will - it will be with Nikon and Canon because the rest of the puzzle is already there.

As for stills extraction, leaving aside the quality issue there are numerous reasons why it would need serious work to get it to fit into an editorial workflow. For one thing, we just don't have time to be scrolling through video to do the extraction. If a goal goes in then we're currently dealing with probably 10 or 12 frames to pick the best one and it then goes in one button press to be ingested, edited, captioned and ftp'd to a picture desk. And all of this is going on while the game is continuing and you're still shooting. Switching modes, scrolling through, marking frames, doing the translation to a still before we even start the rest of it? We just don't have the time for that and I know this for a fact because I've done live trials of it.

However, the biggest issue is a bit more fundamental than that and its to do with media rights. 

Stills shooters are subject to heavy restriction at events as broadcasters have paid eye wateringly large sums for the motion rights. These restrictions determine how many sequential shots of a particular incident you can wire and a restriction on the overall number of shots per event so they cannot be reconstituted into a motion sequence. The restrictions are also related to the capture device itself so you can't use a DSLR in video mode unless you hold the broadcast rights. If you are seen using one in this way then you won't only be asked to stop, you'll have your accreditation revoked and removed from the stadium or event.

Because of that, I'm going to say that the amount of pro sports shooters Nikon and Canon are losing D5 and 1DXii sales from to the likes of GH4 or anything else with stills extraction is likely to be zero. 

[Django]

I dunno what exactly you guys seem to complain about. The Nikon D750 introduced in 2014 is a FF camera with zebras, 60FPS, tilting screen and a Flat profile. May not be as good as Sony, but is a hell lot better then what Canon is offering, and Nikon doesn't even have a dedicated pro video department..

[Mattias Burling]

6 minutes ago, Django said:

I dunno what exactly you guys seem to complain about. The Nikon D750 introduced in 2014 is a FF camera with zebras, 60FPS, tilting screen and a Flat profile. May not be as good as Sony, but is a hell lot better then what Canon is offering, and Nikon doesn't even have a dedicated pro video department..

This.
And imo, better than Sony in many respects. Ups and downs like always.

[mercer]

14 minutes ago, Django said:

I dunno what exactly you guys seem to complain about. The Nikon D750 introduced in 2014 is a FF camera with zebras, 60FPS, tilting screen and a Flat profile. May not be as good as Sony, but is a hell lot better then what Canon is offering, and Nikon doesn't even have a dedicated pro video department..

Yup!!! The only thing their video is missing is focus peaking, but luckily I have eyes. I think they want some kind of Nikon Log... But their Flat Profile is basically Log Lite with more than enough latitude for creativity and dynamic range. 

And many could argue the image is a lot more organic than anything Sony is offering at a comparable price range. 

Or if you like Sony's image better... Cool... Shoot with a Sony. Wtf do I care...

[amsh89es335]

7 hours ago, Django said:

I dunno what exactly you guys seem to complain about. The Nikon D750 introduced in 2014 is a FF camera with zebras, 60FPS, tilting screen and a Flat profile. May not be as good as Sony, but is a hell lot better then what Canon is offering, and Nikon doesn't even have a dedicated pro video department..

I sold My Nikon D750 for the Sony A7r II and hated every moment of it (along with the FS7 and A7s I use at work). Then I sold the Sony A7r II to buy again a D750 for its reliability, low rolling shutter, good flat profile, and really good color science to shoot this earlier this year. 

The Shots at comic con at the beginning and end were a mix of GH4 and Nikon D750. 

[ND64]

hate to repeat myself but its about letting your loyal customers think other brands are handling the video better, even if its just a perception made by very local internet commenters, not that D5500 or D750 output is totally useless. People are comparing and vote with their money. 

[Django]

19 hours ago, amsh89es335 said:

I sold My Nikon D750 for the Sony A7r II and hated every moment of it (along with the FS7 and A7s I use at work). Then I sold the Sony A7r II to buy again a D750 for its reliability, low rolling shutter, good flat profile, and really good color science to shoot this earlier this year. 

The Shots at comic con at the beginning and end were a mix of GH4 and Nikon D750. 

right i've seen you link that a couple times here.. it was Andrew though that initially got me to seriously consider the D750 with this blog entry:

http://www.eoshd.com/2014/09/nikon-d750-review-initial-thoughts-real-world-footage-ladies-gentleman-contender/

I've since shot a few docus, including one that was screened at Le Louvre and got me a standing ovation by some pretty prominent art critics..

I switched to Canon a couple months ago and although the C100 is nothing but joy, 5D3 pre ML RAW was a giant step back for me from D750.

And even with ML RAW.. I must admit I do really miss the D750. Something about that sensor & the colour science. 

Everybody always raves about Canon.. but Nikon perhaps fits my aesthetic even better..

I am going to need to upgrade to 4K body/system in 2017. As of right now, only Sony fits the bill.. but here is to hoping for a 4K D760.

All that's missing aside 4k is dual pixel type phase AF, peaking and indeed maybe a super flat Nikon Log profile to kill 5D4/A7S/R2.

I feel like we may get at least half that extra.. Nikon may claim to not want to alienate their still photogs, but in reality they are paying close attention to the competition (especially Canon) and I believe will try and trump them feature wise, which includes video. 

Finally lets' not forget they did put out the Filmmaker kit in partnership with Atomos, so they definitely got videographers on their radar - at least with the D7xx line:

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, Django said:

I am going to need to upgrade to 4K body/system in 2017. As of right now, only Sony fits the bill.. but here is to hoping for a 4K D760.

 

Or the Nikon D500??

[Django]

^ No i like my camera bodies FF (i'm also a photographer with bunch of FX lens). Btw love how you can easily switch from FX to DX on D750..

[Geoff CB]

I hope they use the same sensor, it should be simple to get a 4K readout from it.

[amsh89es335]

7 hours ago, Django said:

right i've seen you link that a couple times here.. it was Andrew though that initially got me to seriously consider the D750 with this blog entry:

http://www.eoshd.com/2014/09/nikon-d750-review-initial-thoughts-real-world-footage-ladies-gentleman-contender/

I've since shot a few docus, including one that was screened at Le Louvre and got me a standing ovation by some pretty prominent art critics..

I switched to Canon a couple months ago and although the C100 is nothing but joy, 5D3 pre ML RAW was a giant step back for me from D750.

And even with ML RAW.. I must admit I do really miss the D750. Something about that sensor & the colour science. 

Everybody always raves about Canon.. but Nikon perhaps fits my aesthetic even better..

I am going to need to upgrade to 4K body/system in 2017. As of right now, only Sony fits the bill.. but here is to hoping for a 4K D760.

All that's missing aside 4k is dual pixel type phase AF, peaking and indeed maybe a super flat Nikon Log profile to kill 5D4/A7S/R2.

I feel like we may get at least half that extra.. Nikon may claim to not want to alienate their still photogs, but in reality they are paying close attention to the competition (especially Canon) and I believe will try and trump them feature wise, which includes video. 

Finally lets' not forget they did put out the Filmmaker kit in partnership with Atomos, so they definitely got videographers on their radar - at least with the D7xx line:

I hate working with Sony products and just up graded to the mini ursa 4.6k. But I still use my nikon for smaller projects and shoot still on it all the time. 

[ND64]

8 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

I hope they use the same sensor, it should be simple to get a 4K readout from it.

I doubt same sensor be capable of 30fps full res read out, unless they upgrade it with LSI. 

However, D760 won't appear before D810 replacement. We have to wait 4 months at least. 

[Django]

Reading the actual DPreview interview.. I feel OP may have focused on the negative. The last bit being:

'I think that line between movie photographer and stills photographers has gone. The client wants to you to shoot the both of them at the same time to reduce the costs.'

Kitaoka then expanded on the demands they're hearing from customers: 'First of all, quality of the movie is a basic demand so we have to answer that, second frame rate, then lens quality and autofocus, also, [the challenges of] movie AF and still AF totally different.'

'Movie autofocus needs to be smooth, sometimes fast, sometimes slower, depends on the situation. Movie shooters want to [be able to] choose high speed autofocus or natural speed autofocus.'

'Actually we equip the autofocus system fit for the movie but a lot of people [are finding it difficult to use] autofocus between still photo and movie. But we keep trying to [provide the] best movie autofocus in [our] DSLRs and across every single category.’

https://***URL removed***/interviews/6091205488/nikon-interview-photokina-2016

 

Sounds to me like next generation bodies will have much improved video AF enhancement, +60 FPS, 4K possibly 10-bit / 422 / better codec (IQ seems to come first).. I see this as Nikon is listening and will provide very interesting video solutions on their upcoming DSLRs.. 

[IronFilm]

On 10/29/2016 at 10:43 AM, Django said:

^ No i like my camera bodies FF (i'm also a photographer with bunch of FX lens). Btw love how you can easily switch from FX to DX on D750..

Having FF lenses shouldn't stop you from considering a D500, just buy a Tokina 11-20mm f2.8 and carry on as normal (aside from a small minor mental readjustment in FoV for each lens). 

[ND64]

On 10/30/2016 at 3:02 AM, IronFilm said:

Having FF lenses shouldn't stop you from considering a D500, just buy a Tokina 11-20mm f2.8 and carry on as normal (aside from a small minor mental readjustment in FoV for each lens). 

D500 has an interesting feature in 1080 I wish they add to 4k in their future models. I don't know why nobody talks about it. You can expose to highlight, and lift shadows by about 1 or 2 stops in live view. Its a bit like log but graded straight out of camera. 

[jhnkng]

I just got a D500 to complement my other FF Nikons and it's a sweet little camera. I don't really notice that it's not full frame, and it matches my D750 so well that I have to check to see which files came from which camera. I'm mostly a stills guy, but I have shot video jobs with the D750 and I like the video I get from it, it's got a really efficient codec but there's still a little bit of room to grade, and once I get the loupe on the screen I don't miss peaking at all.