HDR on Youtube - next big thing? Requirements?

[jonpais]

Just now, webrunner5 said:

Wow a little of that video goes a LONG ways. They ought to change the name of it to "Your mind on drugs"! Too over the top for me, but I get why they did it.

I am a little more into the BMPCC look than that look. Hmm.

I understand what you're saying, but even a drama or documentary shot on a BMPCC will look vastly better in HDR compared to SDR. 

[webrunner5]

8 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I understand what you're saying, but even a drama or documentary shot on a BMPCC will look vastly better in HDR compared to SDR. 

Hmm never looked at that way. That might work. I mean for pure Documentation work, I can see needing the detail. I guess it is sort of like Disco was years ago, in your face. I guess I am just too old for it LoL.

I sort of want to Chill out not Burn out!

But I guess on a 55 " TV in your living room it would not be in my face as much compared to looking at it on a Monitor 18" From my face.

[jonpais]

2 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Hmm never looked at that way. That might work. I mean for pure Documentation work, I can see needing the detail. I guess it is sort of like Disco was years ago, in your face. I guess I am just too old for it LoL.

I sort of want to Chill out not Burn out!

Ron, I can practically guarantee that if you had the opportunity to watch the acclaimed Netflix documentary series Chef's Table on a true HDR set (not one of those fake $400 HDR jobs), you would change your mind.

[jonpais]

@webrunner5 Before leaving for Korea in 2007, I gave my best friends, an elderly couple, a 40" Sony Trinitron, a 75-pound tube set, as a going away gift, and they absolutely freaked out. "We can't have that in our house!" They used to spend their evenings watching public broadcasting on a 19" set or something like that, I can't recall. A couple of years later, they were thanking me. hehe

[Matthew Hartman]

17 hours ago, jonpais said:

@webrunner5 Before leaving for Korea in 2007, I gave my best friends, an elderly couple, a 40" Sony Trinitron, a 75-pound tube set, as a going away gift, and they absolutely freaked out. "We can't have that in our house!" They used to spend their evenings watching public broadcasting on a 19" set or something like that, I can't recall. A couple of years later, they were thanking me. hehe

Yeah, thats often how adoption of new anything goes, it's usually a stepped process. That was quite a gift. 

17 hours ago, jonpais said:

Ron, I can practically guarantee that if you had the opportunity to watch the acclaimed Netflix documentary series Chef's Table on a true HDR set (not one of those fake $400 HDR jobs), you would change your mind.

I don't doubt the validity of this statement whatsoever. We truly only know quality in terms of how we are familiar with it in it's current form. Remember when ppl were raving about color in film in general? The film still looked like junk by today's standards but audiences then couldn't get enough of it. 

Although, I don't think anyone ever raved about Betamax and VHS. ?

[Matthew Hartman]

18 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Wow a little of that video goes a LONG ways. They ought to change the name of it to "Your mind on drugs"! Too over the top for me, but I get why they did it.

I am a little more into the BMPCC look than that look. Hmm. Wow some times progression maybe is not the best way to go. Sorry, just not my style I doubt ever. But I guess if you were 22 years old it works.

I think I know what you're saying. Though the linked videos do technically look stunning and vibrant, there's still a "character" to it regardless of colorspace. I don't know if it can even easily be put into words. 

When I saw the first footage from even the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera there was something very "cinematic" about it. Almost like paint, or luster. It's motion is different. Is that shutter speed, rolloff, global shutter, no fringing, what? I can't technically explain it. 

I get those same visceral reactions when I see footage from a RED or Arri. I've spent a lot of time, energy (and money) trying to replicate that feel with my NX1, using various pre and post tricks, which I think I've gotten closer to what I'm describing than what I've seen of the GH4/5/5s to date, regadless of bit depth, colorspace, resolution presented in the most filmic way. 

Now I want to be clear so I don't butthurt a few ppl. I'm not saying the GH"" anything sucks. Not at all. I do beleive the "character" it produces has a viable seat at the industry table. And I love a good $underdog$ story, that's why I'm also a big supporter of smartphone filmmaking.

As a creative more than a technical craftsman, I'm always going to lean on the side of quality story than quality image. Though I do strive for both as a matter of passion for excellence.  

Also, I do own and love my NX1, which out of the box isnt terribly "filmic" in the sense of what I consider that definition to be. Although, that definition isn't scientific, it's subjective. 

I'm also brand agnostic. I'll go with anything if it provides me what I'm looking for. I could care less what the label says, and if a director has an issue with that they can hire a fanboy, plenty to pick from. 

Right now, I'm definitely looking heavily at BM products. Arri/RED are way out of my price range (and most everyone else) and I think the BM look is very comparative to those more expensive systems.

No, I don't equate expensive with quality. It's not always true, in fact I would say the markup on Arri/RED is probably next to highway robbery. The feature:cost ratio is insane, and thanks to progressive companies like BMD and Kinefinity, (Samsung had they stuck it out) I think more ppl are going to realize they're getting cleaned out for the availability of a few extra tricks.

Will 2018 be the year of the shake up? 

[jonpais]

I wrote Blackmagic Design and AJA last week, telling them I want to use the Ninja Inferno as a grading monitor. I haven’t heard back from Aja yet, but here’s the response I got from BMD:

Hi Jon,
Thank you for your mail . 
The list of capture devices that can output HDR are

1. UltraStudio 4k Extreme 3
2. UltraStudio 4k Extreme
3. DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G
4. DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K

As far as I know, Final Cut Pro has stopped support for quite sometime . 
You may want to check with Apple on this .  

Louis Wang 
Manager, Professional Services

Prices for the four models range from a whopping $3,000 to less than $200, and I was given no further information about their suitability. And FWIW, a local BMD reseller, Pixel Factory, recommended the Ultrastudio Mini Monitor, a device costing only $137.00!  Naturally, when I asked whether I could bring my Ninja and MacBook to their shop to try it out, they said they're out of stock. hehe

Maybe I've been going about it the wrong way. First, I tried contacting several authorities who've used the Ninja as a grading monitor, but either received no response, a vague reply or a link to AJA's webpage! So I just contacted Atomos. We'll see what they've got to say...

[Axel]

3 hours ago, jonpais said:

I wrote Blackmagic Design ...
 

Quote

 

The list of capture devices that can output HDR are

(...)4. DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K

As far as I know, Final Cut Pro has stopped support for quite sometime . 
You may want to check with Apple on this .  

 

 

Now we are talking sense. I'd be happy to skip over to Resolve for grading and monitoring at an acceptable price, which should be not a big problem now that FCP understands what HDR means in the first place. Thoughts on that? 

[jonpais]

1 minute ago, Axel said:

Now we are talking sense. I'd be happy to skip over to Resolve for grading and monitoring at an acceptable price, which should be not a big problem now that FCP understands what HDR means in the first place. Thoughts on that? 

The thought has occurred to me too, believe me!

On the other hand, in Apple's white paper, they do say that third party hardware is necessary for monitoring HDR, so I'm assuming something must work...

Alexis Van Hurkman did not respond to my query around a month ago. Not a single AJA dealer of the half dozen I contacted here in Vietnam bothered to respond either.

Hoping to hear back from Atomos soon. I've got the feeling that (1) not many are shooting and grading HLG for HDR delivery and (2) almost none of those editing HDR projects of any kind are using Final Cut Pro. 

Rant time?

Why is it easier to find out the habitat of brain-eating amoeba and the symptoms of PMA than to find out what damned connector is needed for the Ninja? 

[Axel]

25 minutes ago, jonpais said:

On the other hand, in Apple's white paper, they do say that third party hardware is necessary for monitoring HDR, so I'm assuming something must work...

I don't mean FCP. Perhaps (as Mark Spencer says) the AJA is the only officially supported interface for FCP. The old Decklink Mini Monitor (HD) also worked so-so with FCP. The image sometimes froze. The solution then (with cheesegrater MP) was to have Resolve open at he same ime - where it worked perfectly. My maximum tolerable price for an interface would be ~ 600 €. Roundtripping is pretty reliable, and grading in Resolve is still better. More so since the new CC tools of FCP seem to have their problems.

 

[jonpais]

19 minutes ago, Axel said:

I don't mean FCP. Perhaps (as Mark Spencer says) the AJA is the only officially supported interface for FCP. The old Decklink Mini Monitor (HD) also worked so-so with FCP. The image sometimes froze. The solution then (with cheesegrater MP) was to have Resolve open at he same ime - where it worked perfectly. My maximum tolerable price for an interface would be ~ 600 €. Roundtripping is pretty reliable, and grading in Resolve is still better. More so since the new CC tools of FCP seem to have their problems.

 

Why is it then, that after jitter problems with the Zhiyun Crane, round-tripping between Resolve and FCP has been one of the most consulted posts in my blog for years?

[Axel]

20 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Why is it then, that after jitter problems with the Zhiyun Crane, round-tripping between Resolve and FCP has been one of the most consulted posts in my blog for years?

I don‘t know. I‘ve been using it since the day it became free software. I‘ve read the manual (all), I bought the Hurkman video training, I searched for and tested roundtrip workflows. I witnessed, how the two softwares became more and more compatible. Last time I used Resolve, it didn‘t yet auto-adjust the pitch of retimed clips, for instance, no big deal. Roundtripping with APPLES Color was more awkward than Resolve is now.

[jonpais]

@Axel Just asking really. I haven't used Resolve in ages, though I keep updating the one I've got. hehe

[markr041]

I am back to HDR, with HLG.

First, the workflow in Resolve (free!) is easy:

Import your HLG clips as you would any clips.

In Project Settings, choose the "Color Management" pane and select DaVinci Resolve YRGB Color Managed as the Color Science.

Choose Rec. 2100 HLG as the Input Color Space if you shot in HLG, and Rec. 2100 HLG as the Timeline Color Space.

Choose Rec.2100 HLG as the Output Color Space.

Place the HLG clips on the timeline and edit (and grade if you want).

Export using the QuickTime container with a Google-supported codec. I use DNxHR HQX 10bit.

Upon rendering DaVinci automatically includes the metadata needed by YouTube for it to know that your video is HLG. I think this is also true for the free version.

That's it (the rest, the important things like editing, are normal). For the paid version, there is HDR mode for editing which provides tools (like scopes) especially for HDR editing.

So, this is what I did for my 4K HLG test clips.

Here is the 4K HLG video (totally boring). If you do not have an HLG enabled TV, you will see this in SDR as transformed by YouTube (looks ok). If you have an HLG-enabled TV the video should go into HLG automatically and you should get an HLG logo.

Maybe this will work, maybe not!

And, one can use the Atomos Shogun Inferno as an HDR monitor (7"!), using HDMI (with the appropriate graphics card). You can select whether the input is HLG or PQ, very easy.

[jonpais]

Thanks @markr041 !

[jonpais]

What exactly is the point of advertising that the Ninja Inferno is also able to serve as a portable editing solution if the required converter costs triple or quadruple what you paid for the recorder/monitor itself? But that’s exactly what Atomos is claiming. I was on the phone with Atomos technical support in Melbourne this afternoon and was told that the only compatible converters are the AJA I/o 4K and Blackmagic Design Ultrastudio 4K Extreme – devices which run around $3,000 USD – more than I paid for my 2017 27″ 5K iMac for crying out loud! And in Vietnam, the BMD Ultrastudio Extreme 3 with Thunderbolt 3 interface will set you back an astronomical $3,600.00. As if that weren’t bad enough, I want to begin shooting 4K 60p V-Log Lite right away, but Atomos distributors here in Vietnam don’t even carry full HDMI 2.0 cables. At this point, you might legitimately wonder why I’m so eager to jump on the HDR bandwagon when hardly anyone even owns an HDR television – and lately, I’ve been questioning my own sanity as well. The reason is that, even setting spectacular dynamic range aside, when viewed on YouTube, HDR video is incomparably cleaner and crisper looking than SDR. Shadow areas that are smudged and overwhelmed with macroblocking and artifacts when viewed in 4K are, if not immaculate, greatly improved when uploaded in HDR. Textures that were faint become palpable as a result of the insanely higher local contrast of a true HDR display. So much so, in fact, that I’d argue that the difference in apparent resolution is more appreciable than between 1080p and 4K.

[Axel]

Not only do the interfaces (for *Macs*) cost more than the monitor/computer. You might come to the conclusion that - for HDR - it'd be wiser to jump to Windows. You'll probably be able to build a custom PC (for *Resolve*) for the price of the AJA that'd outperform your iMac.

Since Apple obviously recognizes the potential of HDR (HDR in AppleTV 4k and more and more on the iTunes store VOD), we may see an iMac with an HDR display. You'd have a superior monitor with computer for ~ $2700, it would reverse the situation. When?

Here come 3d-party-manufacturers. All it needs is a little box with Thunderbolt in and HDMI out that correctly flags the intended color/HDR space to the monitor. Does it have to be very expensive? You could have spent the fortune for the AJA, and three weeks later you see the device (perhaps even from BM) advertised for under 300 bucks ...

As good as Resolve has become, it's still inferior for editing compared to FCP (and will remain so as long as it's married to tracks). And FCP adds CC features that turn out to be half-baked. It's an editor, period. Doesn't have - for instance - an audio mixer. Nevertheless, with audio events quickly and neatly sorted in role-lanes, everything is perfectly prepared for (i.e.) Fairlight, if an audio mixer is what you desperately missed. You can have best of both worlds.

HDR is the next big thing.

[jonpais]

This FCP X HDR tutorial, published last month, seems to confirm the worst: AJA I/o 4K or BMD Ultrastudio 4K Extreme 3. (at the 3:00 mark)

It's as though you just want to buy a garden hose, but in order to do so, you've got to put a mortgage down on the $500,000 house it's attached to.  

[webrunner5]

https://www.redsharknews.com/business/item/5224-hdr10-powers-ahead-with-support-from-panasonic-and-warner-brothers

[jonpais]

Update: Samuel Bilodeau of Mystery Box once again insists we don't need the premium i/o connectors, just something that handles 1080.

The Ultrastudio Mini Monitor will work DaVinci Resolve and FCP-X for HDR grading on a Ninja or Shogun. You don't need the 4K output, and you don't need the HDMI 2.0 that comes with the expensive I/O boxes, since you're telling the Ninja with the LUT how to interpret the input signal. DaVinci and FCP-X are more than happy to output a 1080 signal without adding the HDR flags on an HDMI 1.4 port. DaVinci makes no assumptions as to color space or EOTF unless you tell it to, and FCP-X will transmit a proper HDR signal without the flags if you hook it up this way. See our previous post on grading HDR with the Sumo 19 and the SmallHD 1703 P3X for more details on the workflow.

Note: the Mini Monitor retails for just $145.