HDR on Youtube - next big thing? Requirements?

[jonpais]

look what I’ve got here ?

[jonpais]

So basically, if you've got a camera that shoots RAW or LOG, for around the cost of the GH5s, you can get yourself a Ninja Flame or Inferno, a BMD UltraStudio Mini Monitor and the best 55" OLED TV on the market and begin creating and enjoying HDR videos that blow the socks off anything today - less noise, macroblocking and other compression artifacts, crisper images and several stops more dynamic range.

[Axel]

10 minutes ago, jonpais said:

So basically, if you've got a camera that shoots RAW or LOG, for around the cost of the GH5s, you can get yourself a Ninja Flame or Inferno, a BMD UltraStudio Mini Monitor and the best 55" OLED TV on the market and begin creating and enjoying HDR videos that blow the socks off anything today. 

Thanks again.

One questions, hopefully a simple one: what kind of Thunderbolt port is that? The reviews for the BM device date back to 2013. Will an adapted connection allow it to suck power from the Mac? Nowhere on the german seller's sites is specified if there are different versions for different ports (and neither on the BM homepage).

With taxes, I could get the Ultrastudio AND a Flame for ~ 1000 €. Now I'm spoilt for choice whether I should spent 300-400 € more for an Inferno, since it may turn out that my A6500's 8-bit (which is also limited to 30p @ UHD) turns out to be unsufficient.

jonpais, invaluable information!

[jonpais]

@Axel My iMac was in for repair, I'm about to go pick it up now (one of the ports wasn't working properly, nothing big!). After I get home, I'll be sure to try it out, provided I can find a Thunderbolt to Thunderbolt 3 adapter.

[Axel]

It's time to sum up my findings on the topic so far and invite you to comment.

First of all, I bought an HDR TV, finally. There is no risk in doing that, and it doesn't have to be about 'adopting new technology'. Everyone here should do this. You will watch content in better quality, any content, including your own.

Now I can answer my own question I asked a couple times in this thread. Does SDR on an HDR display look better or worse?

Better, in most cases. With one exception: LOG footage that has been graded and still is somewhat flat. Some may find it aesthetically pleasing in SDR. On an HDR TV, you'd simply say, lacks contrast. NOT good.

HDR does look better. Unfortunately, it's not easy or cheap to monitor and grade it now. This will change. As we discuss this, not a single TV panel for SDR is manufactured anymore. It's the future. Our rec_709 stuff doesn't become unendurable over night, that's the good news. 

Okay, you may say, it's like the jump from HD to 4k. We kept up with the times, but HD is still okay. Wrong. HDR will change much more. It may prove that your current equipment is not suitable to achieve the level of quality you demand and see elsewhere. That's the bad news.

[Damphousse]

9 hours ago, Axel said:

It's time to sum up my findings on the topic so far and invite you to comment.

First of all, I bought an HDR TV, finally. There is no risk in doing that, and it doesn't have to be about 'adopting new technology'. Everyone here should do this. You will watch content in better quality, any content, including your own.

I don't know about that.  I'm going to wait until the HDR format war is over.  I'm not into buying a new TV every 3-4 years.

If someone needs a new TV that's cool, but since my TV is perfectly fine I'm going to wait for this new technology to work out the issues.

[markr041]

1 hour ago, Damphousse said:

I don't know about that.  I'm going to wait until the HDR format war is over.  I'm not into buying a new TV every 3-4 years.

If someone needs a new TV that's cool, but since my TV is perfectly fine I'm going to wait for this new technology to work out the issues.

It doesn't make sense to say your TV "is perfectly fine." It's not; you cannot enjoy HDR video. You are missing out, now.

And HDR video is really something - it is not like 3D, requiring glasses and sacrificing light, or even 4K, which is not visible at enough distance. It is dramatically better, even for mundane videos. And HDR TV's are cheap (if you shop carefully and watch what is real HDR and what not). It might inspire you to shoot for HDR...

I agree that there is worry about standards. But there is at least one standard that I think is here to stay that most everyone has adopted - HLG. It's on most TV's now,  many cell phones will show it, and many of the latest video cameras enable shooting HLG (for free). Editors are ready for it too (Resolve and that Apple one).

[Damphousse]

5 hours ago, markr041 said:

I agree that there is worry about standards. But there is at least one standard that I think is here to stay that most everyone has adopted - HLG. It's on most TV's now,  many cell phones will show it, and many of the latest video cameras enable shooting HLG (for free). Editors are ready for it too (Resolve and that Apple one).

Are you serious?

Quote

Unlike the other HDR formats, no HLG TV shows or movies are available yet, and given the slow pace of broadcast innovations, I'm not holding my breath.

https://www.cnet.com/news/all-about-hlg-what-hybrid-log-gamma-means-for-your-tv/

[Axel]

16 hours ago, Axel said:

First of all, I bought an HDR TV, finally. There is no risk in doing that ...

6 hours ago, Damphousse said:

I don't know about that.  I'm going to wait until the HDR format war is over. 

 

Format war? The hurlyburly's done, the battle's lost and won. There are three victors: PQ, Dolby and HLG. Most TVs younger than 10 months accept / support all three. There are good arguments to let each format survive. It's not like VHS vs. Betamax or Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD, where you betted on EOL hardware.

As long as there is a need for classic broadcasting via cable or satellite, HLG will be the way to beam HDR. And within two or three generations of consumer cameras, it will be standard there. It doesn't need to be graded. Of course all Samsung and Apple smartphones will record and play back HLG. It can be recorded and stored in 8-bit as well.

As technology progresses, panels will become even better. 1000 nits will be considered "HDR ready" in retrospect, because the goal has already been set: 10.000 nits. For a start. You'll want to buy, rent and watch premium content then. Dolby set the standard. 

7 hours ago, Damphousse said:

... but since my TV is perfectly fine ...

It's good for you if you think that your 100 nits TV cuts it in 2018. Spares you at least 1000 bucks - I have researched two weeks, that's HDR TV entry price. These old panels do usually not support all formats, but will make SDR look as good as it gets. This alone is a difference comparable to your first DVD after decades of borrowed VHS cassettes. It really is.

Reasonable prices for "HDR ready" (all trademarks after spring 2017) with full support are ~1500 € for 55" and 2400 € for 65". For LG, i.e. (my choice), the next product line is announced for April, prices will go down further.

[kidzrevil]

Has anyone uploaded to vimeo or youtube in hdr yet ? Whats your grading workflow like in Adobe Premiere ?

[jonpais]

36 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

Has anyone uploaded to vimeo or youtube in hdr yet ? Whats your grading workflow like in Adobe Premiere ?

Short answer to question #2: use FCP X or DaVinci Resolve. Resolve is best.

https://www.mysterybox.us/blog?month=November-2016

[kidzrevil]

Thanks ! Your passion for HDR inspired me to start experimenting with the feature. I am aiming to process my Canon RAW footage for HDR output @jonpais

[jonpais]

@kidzrevil Excellent news! I'll be going to Malaysia next month to exchange my Ninja Inferno for the Shogun Inferno, so hopefully I can begin doing the same. (the Ninja does not work with the HDMI output of the BMD UltraStudio Mini Monitor, but apparently the SDI connectors of the Shogun will).

[markr041]

1 hour ago, kidzrevil said:

Has anyone uploaded to vimeo or youtube in hdr yet ? Whats your grading workflow like in Adobe Premiere ?

Yes, uploaded a bunch of HDR videos to YouTube, both HLG and HDR10. My Samsung S8 phone automatically switches to HDR mode when I play them full screen. Resolve Studio automatically inserts the metadata that YouTube uses to detect HDR videos. I use the "HDR" scopes in Resolve to grade.

Latest HDR HLG test video - snow, which is the brightest white on a sunny day, seems a good use of extended highlights of HDR HLG. Remnants of a previous-night snowstorm, cleaning up, and snow fun - snowmen, forts and sledding.

Just used one lens a 35mm f1.8, so I could get some very shallow DOF shots wide open using a variable ND.

[jonpais]

@markr041 Looking good!

[markr041]

6 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@markr041 Looking good!

Thanks. I'm hooked!

[Damphousse]

13 hours ago, Axel said:

Format war? The hurlyburly's done, the battle's lost and won. There are three victors: PQ, Dolby and HLG. Most TVs younger than 10 months accept / support all three.

 

Inaccurate things have been posted in this thread...

Quote

Samsung added 4K to its Vudu app, but no HDR (Vudu is still currently Dolby Vision-only, which isn't supported on Samsung).

Let me be clear.  I am not here to talk anyone out of buying an HDR TV.  It is your money and your choice.  If I HAD to buy a new TV today I would definitely be taking a hard look at the technology.

13 hours ago, Axel said:

As long as there is a need for classic broadcasting via cable or satellite, HLG will be the way to beam HDR.

Considering we just made the unimaginable switch from analog to digital TV broadcast a few years ago I wouldn't bet any tech will ALWAYS be with us.  The whole point of highlighting the HLG comment is there is no HLG content now and no concrete plans for it in the immediate future here in the US.  I can wait for the format stuff to get ironed out and prices to come down.  What is the point of me rushing to buy a HLG TV when there is no HLG content?

What bothers me is the inaccurate information posted.  Usually a legit point of view speaks for itself.  There is no need to mislead.

13 hours ago, Axel said:

These old panels do usually not support all formats, but will make SDR look as good as it gets. This alone is a difference comparable to your first DVD after decades of borrowed VHS cassettes. It really is.

That is your opinion.  It certainly isn't a fact.  VHS had so many issues other than the image quality.  Those things were bulky clumsy contraptions that were prone to mechanical failure.

If there is something I am not understanding or I am mistaken about I do appreciate education and clarification.  But I think you guys have really misrepresented where we are with this emerging tech.  I personally don't care but I hate to see people go out and spend their hard earned money and wind up with something different than what they thought.

[markr041]

5 hours ago, Damphousse said:

Inaccurate things have been posted in this thread...

Let me be clear.  I am not here to talk anyone out of buying an HDR TV.  It is your money and your choice.  If I HAD to buy a new TV today I would definitely be taking a hard look at the technology.

Considering we just made the unimaginable switch from analog to digital TV broadcast a few years ago I wouldn't bet any tech will ALWAYS be with us.  The whole point of highlighting the HLG comment is there is no HLG content now and no concrete plans for it in the immediate future here in the US.  I can wait for the format stuff to get ironed out and prices to come down.  What is the point of me rushing to buy a HLG TV when there is no HLG content?

What bothers me is the inaccurate information posted.  Usually a legit point of view speaks for itself.  There is no need to mislead.

That is your opinion.  It certainly isn't a fact.  VHS had so many issues other than the image quality.  Those things were bulky clumsy contraptions that were prone to mechanical failure.

If there is something I am not understanding or I am mistaken about I do appreciate education and clarification.  But I think you guys have really misrepresented where we are with this emerging tech.  I personally don't care but I hate to see people go out and spend their hard earned money and wind up with something different than what they thought.

Speaking of inaccuracies! I think you missed the point. There is HLG content now, in fact, right in this thread. And many cameras now can create HLG video directly - it's a standard among creators.

This whole forum is about creating video, not watching Hulu, or Neflix or Vudu (or Voodo). Go to some TV forum, wherever that is, to make your case to stick with your outmoded TV. That forum is for watchers and couch potatoes, not creators. There is plenty of whining there about standards and which service providers supply which flavor of HDR. You can also argue about which HDR mode is better!

What is relevant here is that if you get an HDR TV that has HLG or HDR10 you will be able to watch HDR videos you create and those created by many videographers all over the world, including some posting here. By not getting one you will be stuck in SDR land, inclusive of any videos you create. You just have to shoot in some log gamma with an extended color gamut to create HDR videos, and you may already be shooting in those modes (when you are not watching Amazon Video or Netflix). But you won't create HDR videos as long as you can't watch them.

So, you are missing out creatively; and the fact you do not have an HDR viewing device means that you are unable to even make an informed decision as to whether shooting in let alone viewing HDR is worth it. So, your SDR TV means you are missing a lot, unless your only purpose is to watch commercial TV. Too bad. 

[kidzrevil]

for all the guys with HDR sets let me know how you feel about this footage 

[markr041]

11 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

for all the guys with HDR sets let me know how you feel about this footage 

Where is this video posted? Given that this thread is about HDR on YouTube, we should be posting HDR videos there. Not to be anal about categories, but because many HDR sets (including HDR-capable cell phones) can only show HDR videos using the YouTube app. That's why YouTube figures importantly for those interested in HDR video. Is this on YouTube? Why not?

Given so few people have HDR viewers, it would seem you want to maximize viewership among those few. So, how do I feel about this footage - deprived!