HDR on Youtube - next big thing? Requirements?

[sam]

Jon, you'll be happy to hear at least one of the "snobs" at LGG, Marc Wielage,  uses the c7 for daily grading, but not sure If he uses it for hdr work.   If you buy a certain remote for the lg's you can access the service menu which lets you turn features on/off (specificallyMaxfall) but use at your own risk!  Sounds like you've put some time into figuring @$&* out.  Oh, and now that you can see what your looking at, I can't understand why you still like the gh5?   

[Jonesy Jones]

9 hours ago, jonpais said:

@PannySVHS I don’t want to start cluttering up this thread with YT videos, but just to give you a rough idea of how much better HDR is, particularly with films that have man-made colors (ie. not from nature - such as neon colors, fluorescent greens, automobile finishes and so on) and especially science fiction and action films with explosions (though it looks equally stunning for dramas to me), have a look at this demonstration beginning at 16”30’ and ending at 18”30’. The bolt of lightning in the rec 709 space looks drab, the HDR version really flashes! It’s those values above white (the highlights) that really pop. 

HDR is also capable of great subtlety. 

Jon, this was an absolutely great watch. Thanks for posting. For those who are wondering what all this new lingo means, this video, though kinda long, explains it well. Here are my take aways. (Those more technical than I are encouraged to point out my mistakes.)

• Rec 2020 has to do with color, not luminance. It greatly broadens the amount of color values that can be displayed compared to Rec 709. Also, Rec 2020 derives it's name in that it is supposed to be the standard by the year 2020. Meaning that Rec 709 was standardized in 709. AD or BC the video did not say.
• HDR describes an increased luminance range (I think all of us filmmakers know this one). SDR's limitation is 100 nits. HDR's limitation was confusing to me since at first I thought I heard 1000 nits, then he started describing another format (2084) with a threshold of 10,000 nits. Suffice it to say, HDR has a whole lot higher brightness threshold. 
• With HDR, white will be at 100 nits, and anything above is highlights, like lightning or fire. 
• Also, he didn't say this, but my impression is that HDR seems to be a catch all name for greater luminance AND the greater color format rec 2020, even though this isn't accurate. 
• There is a dilemma with HDR in that broadcasters would need to deliver or transmit 2 formats, HDR and SDR, for people with either display.
• HLG is an attempt to solve this dilemma by being one delivery format for either HDR or SDR displays. HLG has a 5000 nit threshold.
• All the log (s-log, c-log, etc) formats delivered by our cameras these days actually look great on HDR TV's. These log formats make a great master for future proofing. Don't make rec 709 masters.
• Atamos Inferno or whatever it's called makes a great and very color accurate HDR monitor. 
• An English accent makes you 10 times smarter.

That's all I can remember. Thanks again Jon for sharing.

[jonpais]

Thanks @Jonesy Jones. I really wanted to sum the video up myself for those that don’t have the time to watch/listen to the entire video, but ran out of steam after writing about reference monitors. 

@Vesku So @sam must be right about turning off Maxfall, that could very well be what Alister Chapman was referring to when talking about the different curves manufacturers apply to make their sets shine. (?)

You’re a Canon shooter yourself, aren’t you sam? 

[sam]

2 Canons and 2 Sony's.  

[Axel]

5 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Rec 2020 has to do with color, not luminance. It greatly broadens the amount of color values that can be displayed compared to Rec 709. Also, Rec 2020 derives it's name in that it is supposed to be the standard by the year 2020. Meaning that Rec 709 was standardized in 709. AD or BC the video did not say.

If I recall correctly, it's a broad enough color space for 1080p, whereas 609 was okay for 640i, 2020 being appropriate for 2160p and above (afaik it also includes at least 10bit, HFR and HDR). How do you say "709". Seven hundred and nine? Or seven o nine? Then for my foreigners' ears it almost sounds like someone from the very distant future:

5 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

An English accent makes you 10 times smarter.

Because english is not my native language, I couldn't tell. I do hear a difference between, say, Alex Jones and John Oliver.

5 hours ago, jonpais said:

I really wanted to sum the video up myself for those that don’t have the time to watch/listen to the entire video, but ran out of steam after writing about reference monitors.

This thread turned out to be an HDR seminar. I think that those who followed it have a deeper understanding and a better overview by now. jonpais, will you report on your Atomos experiences? You could write, edit and sell your own E-book about HDR. And hurry, before Wolfcrow changes his mind about the topic and does just that!

6 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

With HDR, white will be at 100 nits, and anything above is highlights, like lightning or fire.

This kind of answers my repeated questions how 709 video would look on an HDR TV: more or less the same as on an SDR TVs, probably with better blacks. With the resolution race, new standards had to be sold by proving how poor the lower resolution looked in comparison. For early adopters (consumers or producers) HDR stands out without such direct comparison. But the day may come when some couch potato says, why do they still broadcast all this dull SDR stuff ?!!??

You can't, of course, make your own stuff futureproof with technique, but only with content. 

Quote

In the year 2525, if man is to survive ...

According to Stephen Hawking, he isn't. He will either freeze to death, drown or will be eaten by CGI wolves on a boat in the streets of Manhattan. Raising the brightness (and power consumption) of TVs won't prevent that. 

[jonpais]

@Axel It's seven-oh-nine. I'll definitely be making a video about my experiences with the Ninja Inferno, though there are already several hundred online.  rec 709 looks spectacular on an HDR TV. I watch YouTube content (including my own) and SDR movies streamed by Netflix on my LG C7 and the image quality never ceases to amaze me (excluding my own!). 

Because english is not my native language, I couldn't tell. I do hear a difference between, say, Alex Jones and John Oliver.  

You can't, of course, make your own stuff futureproof with technique, but only with content. Truer words were never spoken.

[kidzrevil]

I wonder if we will ever get a SLOG to HLG/HDR LUT ? If SLOG is able to capture an extended dynamic range then in theory it can be converted for HDR displays.

I’ve done some research on LG tv’s and hear they amongst many allow HDR with an 8 bit display. I even read somewhere that they consider their tv sets to be HDR compatible because they cover the whole luma lange so it doesn’t matter if their tv’s can fill the color gamut. That makes sense because a lot of HDR tv’s and Sony A7riii HDR mode is 8 bit color as well. My display for what its worth is HDR but only covers a limited amount of the dci-p3 coor space. This leads me to believe if tv manufacturers are ok with 8 bit color if their displays can render HDR’s luma range then 8 bit color maybe effective for HDR even with sgamut

[Jonesy Jones]

1 hour ago, kidzrevil said:

I wonder if we will ever get a SLOG to HLG/HDR LUT ? If SLOG is able to capture an extended dynamic range then in theory it can be converted for HDR displays.

I’ve done some research on LG tv’s and hear they amongst many allow HDR with an 8 bit display. I even read somewhere that they consider their tv sets to be HDR compatible because they cover the whole luma lange so it doesn’t matter if their tv’s can fill the color gamut. That makes sense because a lot of HDR tv’s and Sony A7riii HDR mode is 8 bit color as well. My display for what its worth is HDR but only covers a limited amount of the dci-p3 coor space. This leads me to believe if tv manufacturers are ok with 8 bit color if their displays can render HDR’s luma range then 8 bit color maybe effective for HDR even with sgamut

If you watch the video Jon posted you'll learn that s-log is already HDR/HLG. The curve is the same. Logs look great on HDR TV's right out of the box.

[Axel]

2 hours ago, kidzrevil said:

... because a lot of HDR tv’s and Sony A7riii HDR mode is 8 bit color as well.

 

58 minutes ago, Jonesy Jones said:

If you watch the video Jon posted you'll learn that s-log is already HDR/HLG. The curve is the same. Logs look great on HDR TV's right out of the box.

It cannot be THE same, however. But it must be sufficiently similar, so that it doesn't present an unsurmountable challenge to offer an additional profile for the A7Rii and all the other vintage SDR crap cameras.

2 hours ago, kidzrevil said:

My display for what its worth is HDR but only covers a limited amount of the dci-p3 coor space.

Unclear specs everywhere. My display (iMac 27) has 500 nits brightness, allegedly closest to P3 as well (Larry Jordan explains the P3 - related points here), and it has a well-hidden preference: 

>system preferences >Displays >Display  - then alt-click on  >Resolution >Scaled - and a new checkbox appears below Automatically adjust brightness, and that's Allow extended dynamic range.

Found out accidentally (using alt+click often shows hidden things), but don't see how this relates to anything. 

[jonpais]

15 minutes ago, Axel said:

[...]and all the other vintage SDR crap cameras.

???

[kidzrevil]

@Axel damn HDR comes out now everything is a crap camera. Funny how the world works huh ? They were just fine and were something to talk about but the minute HDR gets announced they belong in the garbage huh ? Lol

[Don Kotlos]

9 hours ago, kidzrevil said:

I wonder if we will ever get a SLOG to HLG/HDR LUT ? If SLOG is able to capture an extended dynamic range then in theory it can be converted for HDR displays.

Yes we had capable HDR cameras for many years. The important step is to be able to store more than 10 stops in either log or RAW. 

The only thing that was missing was the capability of monitors to display such a large contrast. Once we got that NLEs supported a HDR pipeline.

Having HLG in camera is meant for delivery purposes. If you are a heavy grader then Log or RAW still is the way to go.

Creating a LOG to HLG LUT should be fairly straightforward. You just have to be careful of banding if you are working with limited bits.

 

 

[tomekk]

I like HDR, I hope TVs will be good enough to take full advantage of rec 2020 by the time my Panasonic plasma dies ;). 

[Kisaha]

I am sure most of you have seen this already. They are going H265/10bit/HDR/8K. Actually HDR maybe is coming faster because of Apple. It took them 3 years NOT to perfectly implement H265 in their workflow, but they seem to be the front runners of HDR. My previous post stands though, I do not care, much, about HDR in 2018!

https://vimeo.com/blog/post/luminous-colors-stunning-high-quality-hdr-arrived

 

[jonpais]

10 hours ago, kidzrevil said:

@Axel damn HDR comes out now everything is a crap camera. Funny how the world works huh ? They were just fine and were something to talk about but the minute HDR gets announced they belong in the garbage huh ? Lol

Even though we both know @Axel isn’t being serious, we can all probably think of one or two other technologies that, like a bolt of lightning (sorry, cliche I know!), suddenly made everything before seem outdated or at the very least, a drudge to work with. For me at least, one of those was IBIS. For example, once I started shooting with my G85, I never wanted to pick up my lowly GH4 again. But unlike IBIS, a feature still unavailable on professional cinema cameras and which most videographers have somehow managed to live without for a quarter of a century - to the best of my knowledge, long before the advent of HDR - colorists have never liked working with 8-bit files. And (afaik) most broadcasters have also required 10-bit. So in that repect at least, HDR has not really changed industry practice. To return to IBIS for a moment, I can think of at least two videographers, when moving up from mirrorless to cameras like the Ursa Mini, deplored the lack of IBIS. And I imagine the same disruption to the industry will occur once the GH6 and the Sony A7s IV boast built in ND filters. 

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

I am sure most of you have seen this already. They are going H265/10bit/HDR/8K. Actually HDR maybe is coming faster because of Apple. It took them 3 years NOT to perfectly implement H265 in their workflow, but they seem to be the front runners of HDR. My previous post stands though, I do not care, much, about HDR in 2018!

https://vimeo.com/blog/post/luminous-colors-stunning-high-quality-hdr-arrived

 

Time to change the title of this thread to HDR on YouTube & Vimeo - next big thing? ?

A quick tutorial for setting up Resolve 14 for HDR editing (for eventual upload to YouTube).

[kidzrevil]

@jonpais broadcasters never required 10 bit. If you go off of BBC standards the Canon Xc10 was considered a Tier 1 camera and it was most definitely 8bit. 10 bit displays haven’t even saturated the market and its 2017 theres no way broadcasters could require 10bit. Thats too much data to push to a coaxial cable.

I agree that HDR is a step up but its not that serious. High dynamic range in the wrong hands is as much of a disaster as it was when we had SDR cameras. HDR will in fact change industry practice its not something production studios have accounted for in the past. I really still believe HDR will remain an “icing on the cake” feature for at least a couple of more years. If the demand for it increases it will become a standard but it will have to survive a couple more years in this consumer market to be a thing i.e. 3D tv

[jonpais]

@kidzrevil That's why I qualified my statement with the words as far as I know. But this document published by the EBU (European Broadcasting Union), with 73 active members in 56 countries, and 34 associate members from a further 20 countries (according to Wikipedia), seems to carry some weight worldwide. For those not wishing to read the entire document, the organization specifies a minimum of 10-bit for UHD and recommends the same for HD. Of course, guidelines are just that - guidelines; and there will always be exceptions to the rule. It must be remembered that content isn't always broadcast live (much of it is taped), so we're not concerned here with whether the TV set itself is 10-bit or 8-bit. 

If you enjoy watching movies at home, HDR allows us for the very first time to see pictures in the same color space as in the theater.  And if you're familiar at all with Technicolor's influence in the industry (if not, I highly recommend watching this interview), you'll quickly understand that HDR is already the de-facto standard. 

[kidzrevil]

@jonpais   Don’t get me wrong im not opposed to anything thats going to up the quality of a production. Im all for the latest and greatest bleeding edge technology. I played PS4 in HDR for the first time yesterday and was blown away at the highlight rolloff. It was a great experience seeing HDR but for my specific uses & clientelle its a very faddish thing for me and im sure other freelancers can relate. When more displays and consumer phones support it I will jump on it without hesitation. I mean im still taking my 0-255 and compressing it down to 16-235 because anything outside of that range clips on most devices so I think you can understand why im not so eager to entirely abandon my current SDR workflow. 7 stops of DR is plenty if you know what you are doing. 

[jonpais]

@kidzrevil The day Dave Dugdale, Max Yuryev, Brandon Li, Curtis Judd and iPhonedo begin uploading their YT videos in HDR will probably be when it is widely adopted, and I don't see that time coming very soon either! =) Just wanted to share a bit about my own television viewing experience... I left the States for South Korea (and never looked back!) in 2007. At the time, none of my friends or acquaintances back home even owned an HD television (though they were definitely available) and TV shows were still being broadcast in standard definition (a euphemism for blurry). When I arrived in Korea, I was astounded to find that every TV was HD, and no matter how grubby a restaurant I went to for my bibimbap, I could watch Korean TV dramas in all their HD glory. Not only that: the subway, the airport, every diner, every school, every doctor's office waiting room and every home had a flat screen television from LG or Samsung. And that was only one of the many ways that living in Korea made Detroit seem like a third world country. =) I don't necessarily mean the unchecked proliferation of TV sets, which is really a nuisance - just the HD part!

[kidzrevil]

@jonpais a friend of mine went out there to live and teach english after we both got out of the military. They put her in an LG smart house and she couldn’t stop going on about how far ahead of the times South Korea is in comparison to the states. When I went to Japan I noticed tech that hasn’t come close to saturating our market is pretty common out there. If I was was working outside the states I would absolutely, positively abandon SDR and start practicing with the newer tech or face being left in the dust ! Sadly America’s consumer market aint as tech driven so it takes way too long for things to become a standard here  

I do hope our market prefers dynamic range over resolution because the race to 6K right now is complete garbage and not worth it over better color & dr.