Political thread

[Kisaha]

First of all, we consider Syrians friends and family, since Alexander the Great conquest of the Persian empire, and especially the Orthodoxs of the later centuries. There is an uninterapted relationship and intermixing of thousands of years until the genocides of the Turks in the 20th century that killed or expelled every Greek in the region that lived there for almost 3000(!) years! So, I know a thing or two about ethnic cleansing. Both my parents's families came (in different centuries) from Constantinople (Istanbul= Is tin poli = Greek for the "To the city") to avoid the massacres.

I tottaly agree with everything you say, but for every war and destabilization of the west there is another one of the USSR, or Russia. Unfortunately it is uunavoidable.

You live in Australia, would you like to study and live in Russia or where you are right now? The fact that NOONE wants to go to Russia, but to the Western world, is an indication of what society humans instictivly prefer.

I feel so bad for what is happening in Syria that I am not worthy of talking to you about politics, or anything at all. When there is war, there is no humanity, but we the people have to realize that noone is coming to save us, we have to come to common grounds and build something new.

[fuzzynormal]

2 hours ago, Simon Shasha said:

The Western media, governments, and their apologists, would have their audiences believe that their bombs are full of chocolate and roses. They do not talk about the Agent Orange in Vietnam. They do not talk about the White Phosphorus used in Afghanistan and Iraq. Or all the Depleted Uranium they used against Iraqi civilians in Fallujah - which has resulted, not only in countless deaths, but birth defects and mutations which are still being seen till this very day.

You presume too much, because many citizens in the US that pay half a mind to whats going on in the world are well aware of all that.

In fact, I grew up 15 miles from one of the chemical plants that made Agent Orange and remember numerous and continuous protests at the plant throughout the years as a result of that notoriety.  Moreover, AgentOrange was so widely known and understood it was integrated into numerous popular culture narratives throughout the years.

The reason citizens can find out about this stuff is because U.S. media is free to disseminate that information.

Never mind that over half the people in the country opposed the Iraq war - during the Iraq war.

You might have an antagonistic itch to scratch regarding U.S. Americans, but we're not all idiots walking lockstep in some homogenous ideological blob.  We're a blob, but we seldom agree about anything and are willing to let our government know it.  In fact, that's exactly what our government supposedly is: a bunch of disagreeable people sharing the responsibility of making it up as we go along.

[Simon Shasha]

3 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

You presume too much, because many citizens in the US that pay half a mind to whats going on in the world are well aware of all that.

In fact, I grew up 15 miles from one of the chemical plants that made Agent Orange and remember numerous and continuous protests at the plant throughout the years as a result of that notoriety.  Moreover, AgentOrange was so widely known and understood it was integrated into numerous popular culture narratives throughout the years.

Never mind that over half the citizens in the country opposed the Iraq war - during the Iraq war.

You might have an antagonistic itch to scratch regarding U.S. Americans, but we're not all idiots.

I said the "Western media, governments, and their apologists". I didn't say "Every single U.S. citizen".

I have no gripe with U.S. citizens. I praise anyone that stands up to U.S. hegemony, aggression and war-crimes - especially U.S. citizens.

[fuzzynormal]

Just now, Simon Shasha said:

I said the "Western media, governments, and their apologists". I didn't say "Every single U.S. citizen".

I have no gripe with U.S. citizens. I praise anyone that stands up to U.S. hegemony, aggression and war-crimes - especially U.S. citizens.

Fair enough, but honestly if you think the "media" is effectively corralled by the government, you should see what some of the media does around here. It's all information chaos right now, as always.

[Simon Shasha]

Just now, fuzzynormal said:

Fair enough, but honestly if you think the "media" is effectively corralled by the government, you should see what some of the media does around here. It's all information chaos right now, as always.

It's a shame that Western journalism, especially in the USA, has turned to complete and utter s**t.

The mainstream media isn't really the "Fourth Estate" anymore, nor does it hold or adhere to the "muck racking" ideals that the Fourth Estate was built upon. Rather, it has mutated into nothing more than a public-relations firm - regurgitating and glamouring-up State Department press-releases and political speeches.

I remember when I began my Media Degree at University here in Sydney, the first lecture I attended, the lecturer's opening words were; "The modern mainstream media...is a lie. The Fourth Estate is dead."

It's funny how Australia gave the world that wretched bastard, Rupert Murdoch, however, has also given the world Julian Assange and John Pilger - two great inspirations to me personally - and the future of independent media - how the Fourth Estate was originally intended and meant to be.

I hope to be travelling back to Syria soon to make a documentary about my village/region (Syria's Christians), and how they suffered at the hands of Western-backed "rebels" - something that is never reported on in the West.

[fuzzynormal]

55 minutes ago, Simon Shasha said:

The mainstream media isn't really the "Fourth Estate" anymore... how they suffered at the hands of Western-backed "rebels" - something that is never reported on in the West.

You may want to stay clear of absolutes.  

The vaunted "4th Estate" in U.S. media really only held sway post WWII when you had an entire generation tempered with the global context --and that was combined with the rise of broadcast electronic media, which embraced an earnest seriousness for legitimacy.  Before that the U.S. media has always been a mess.  Print especially.  I seem to recall Orson Wells made a decent film that touched on that a little bit.

Also this: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/05/15/life-is-horrible-syrias-christians-fear-total-genocide.html

[Simon Shasha]

37 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

You may want to stay clear of absolutes.  

The vaunted "4th Estate" in U.S. media really only held sway post WWII when you had an entire generation tempered with the global context --and that was combined with the rise of broadcast electronic media, which embraced an earnest seriousness for legitimacy.  Before that the U.S. media has always been a mess.  Print especially.  I seem to recall Orson Wells made a decent film that touched on that a little bit.

Also this: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/05/15/life-is-horrible-syrias-christians-fear-total-genocide.html

I have seen a handful of reports about what ISIS has done in regards to my people. What I wish to uncover and show is how the more "moderate rebels", as Western media phrases it, have also done the exact same things to us that ISIS have. That is what I was getting at.

Though I disagree with some parts of the article, i.e. "U.S.-led Western coalition trying to restore stability with an as-yet-unidentified new regime" (that's a nice way of saying "we're trying to overthrow a government and replace it with a government that is favourable to us"), I am glad to see my people's plight get exposure, regardless. 

[Kisaha]

Simon Sasha, again, you seem to thrive and make dreams, because you are living in a western world country, not in Russia, not in Azerbaijan, not in Nigeria. 

There are people protesting everywhere in the US because they afraid that their elected president will not respect minorities and communities, the other day Pence (the vice president) went to the theater, and the actors declared their fears on stage, and audienced boo=ed the vice president. Could you do that in Syria 10 years ago? Can you do that outside Kremlin?

Also, Australia has the strictest immigration policy right now in the whole world. Have you not notice that tiny islands a lot of hundreds of miles away from the whole Oceania continent have thousands of people living in terrible conditions? Who is going to make a documentary about them?

See, your dream is someone's else nightmare.

I hope you can go back to your city soon, and do your documentary.

[fuzzynormal]

1 minute ago, Simon Shasha said:

 a nice way of saying "we're trying to overthrow a government and replace it with a government that is favourable to us"

Well, as a U.S. citizen I'm not going to poo-poo implementing our system of government elsewhere.  The players within my system will range from benevolent to malevolent, but the ideas are noble and can overcome the former.  What the U.S. did in the 18th century is a novel modern idea and has worked rather well and remained flexible within the the shifts of the industrial revolution.

Granted, the U.S. is not always about implementing our brand of democracy.  Most often those Americans involved in international politics just want something that gives U.S. businesses some sort of foothold to exploit things. So, yeah, ulterior motives.

Of course, there's an argument I'd make that Western republicanism/democracy as defined by the U.S. constitution and Bill of Rights is a good thing, and those that can adapt to something similar have a real potential for societal advantage. Which I think is true.  It allows liberal freedoms within structure; room for innovative enterprise too.  That's a key component.  I'd submit that certain cultures might even be able to handle it better than the USA.

I don't think it fits everywhere, but neither do dictatorships.

Basically, I'm saying the ideals of my country are kind of cool, so let's not bash the whole system because some people or elements in it suck.

[Simon Shasha]

56 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Simon Sasha, again, you seem to thrive and make dreams, because you are living in a western world country, not in Russia, not in Azerbaijan, not in Nigeria. 

There are people protesting everywhere in the US because they afraid that their elected president will not respect minorities and communities, the other day Pence (the vice president) went to the theater, and the actors declared their fears on stage, and audienced boo=ed the vice president. Could you do that in Syria 10 years ago? Can you do that outside Kremlin?

Also, Australia has the strictest immigration policy right now in the whole world. Have you not notice that tiny islands a lot of hundreds of miles away from the whole Oceania continent have thousands of people living in terrible conditions? Who is going to make a documentary about them?

See, your dream is someone's else nightmare.

I hope you can go back to your city soon, and do your documentary.

I don't really see the point you're trying to make. Sure, living in wealthy countries with free-markets, free-enterprise and free-speech, is great, but what has that got to do with anything? I never said there is anything wrong with such things. I wish a high-standard of living and freedom of expression was available to everyone in the world. More so, I wish governments stopped investing billions in weapons and more in education, health and science. 

Regardless, that was not what I was talking about, nor complaining about. What I said was very clear and simple - I said that Western Exceptionalism regarding war and war-crimes is a problem.

I'm sorry, but if those protesters think that Clinton is any better than Trump, than they are in for a very rude awakening.

Clinton is a war-criminal. I am not going to pour my heart out again regarding what her, and Obama's, foreign policies did to my family, friends, and village. I already did that in an earlier post and it was hard enough.

As I stated before, I do not think Trump, nor Clinton, are really any different. I am not fond of either. As I said, I supported, and still support, Jill Stein.

However, what I am sick of is Clinton supporters blaming everyone but themselves for this debacle. They supported one of the most unpopular politicians in US history in an election against someone like Trump. They could have had Bernie Sanders - a genuine, decent human-being, who was not propped up by the cronies on Wall St, the Military Industrial Complex, big pharmaceuticals, and Saudi Arabia, but they pushed him aside. They tore him down and burnt him in favour a corporate shill.

You think I'm going to feel sorry for those protesters? Not only after what they did to Bernie Sanders, but what their dear leader Clinton did to my family, to my home? You think I care about their protesting?

Put yourself in my shoes. Put that in perspective. Now tell me how to feel...

And I don't know why you're bringing up Australia's immigration policy - I have been against it for years, and have fought for the human-rights of immigrants for a long time.

I can't save the world, mate. I told you already, I don't believe in romanticism like that. I believe in being pragmatic. Realistic. I will do what I can. And right now, I'm sorry if this doesn't fit your narrative, but I have a sense of urgency to create a documentary about the plight of my own people first.

Call that selfish, I don't care. I don't see it that way.

Also, regarding the cast of "Hamilton" speech, I found it disingenuous. However, I think Mr. H.A. Goodman summed it up far better than I could:
 

 

45 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Of course, there's an argument I'd make that Western republicanism/democracy as defined by the U.S. constitution and Bill of Rights is a good thing, and those that can adapt to something similar have a real potential for societal advantage. Which I think is true.  It allows liberal freedoms within structure; room for innovative enterprise too.

I agree with this 100%.
 

And for those that are interested, here is an epic take-down of Obama, and all the phony liberal progressives in the West:
 

 

[fuzzynormal]

33 minutes ago, Simon Shasha said:

here is an epic take-down of Obama, and all the phony liberal progressives in the West:

FWIW, I'd argue that anyone using the phrase "Epic Takedown" deserves skepticism when complaining about the state of modern media.

 

 

[Kisaha]

1) My point was that the Russian's you think are going to save you, are the worst enemies of their own people.

2) point about Australia. The best that ever happened to you (and a lot of Greek friends there), but the worst of the thousands of people thrown into tiny islands, that can not escape with gangs ruling by the law of the jungle.

3) I didn't talk about the people protesting for Clinton (I know about the Clinton family), but the fact that they CAN PROTEST, something that wasn't possible in your country before, nor in Russia before, or now, or ever.

Western World is the best we have right now. You are being romantic if you thing there is a better possible solution right now. You take the best that there is, and trying to build from there. 

If I had to choose between a Theocratic State, like the one in Turkey, that just yesterday passed a law for men that says that men that have rape girls, are innocent, if they marry them, and Russia that the state murders or puts in jail whoever is against the government there, and put Academics and Journalists in jail in both countries, then yeah, definitely Western World isn't such a terrible place.

It is undeniable that Assad was ruling the state without being elected, and there were people there that felt excluded from the government, and I believe those people were the majority of Syria (and I have to state here, that Assad's regime kept the country stable and peaceful, that is the truth, but the majority felt like revolting, that is another Colonization Britain's map making of the past). It is pretty obvious that when Libya started, CIA and the western world didn't know what to do, and was unprepared. Qaddafi had just signed tenths of different papers with Western governments, and stayed in Italy (in his tent!) for a whole month. The West was pro Qaddafi. The revolutions, the Arabic Spring, DID started from democratic people, but as the history shows, the naive democrats and the young, soon felt the barrel of a Kalashnikov in their backs, the radicals capitalized on the instability, and guns are more powerful than protests and twitter. 

Historically, this is the best chance the Kurds have to make their own state, they are 30.000.000+ without their own state, they fight through this war to their freedom, in their new US funded armored 4WD and their new shinny boots. For them, this war is an opportunity, and Kurds are inhabited the area a few thousands of years since BEFORE even the Turks arrived from the steppes of far east (1109).

 

[Richard Bugg]

1 hour ago, fuzzynormal said:

Well, as a U.S. citizen I'm not going to poo-poo implementing our system of government elsewhere...

If we look at environmental impact, climate change, disparities between the wealthy and the poor, access to medical care, the proliferation of guns and gun-related violence, and so on the picture is less clear. And how many of the political class in the US are not in the highest few percentile regarding access to wealth? These issues are a product of the system of government and its implementation. There may be other models of democracy that are superior to US style government in many regards.

[Kisaha]

33 minutes ago, Richard Bugg said:

If we look at environmental impact, climate change, disparities between the wealthy and the poor, access to medical care, the proliferation of guns and gun-related violence, and so on the picture is less clear. And how many of the political class in the US are not in the highest few percentile regarding access to wealth? These issues are a product of the system of government and its implementation. There may be other models of democracy that are superior to US style government in many regards.

Yeah, almost all of the rest!

For us in Europe, crime rates, guns everywhere, extreme capitalism, health system, non very eco friendly, cheap Sony cameras are very far from the system here. Still, if we look elsewhere in the world, US system is the closest, and the friendliest to us than Communist(?!) China and Democratic(?!) Russia.

[fuzzynormal]

4 hours ago, Richard Bugg said:

There may be other models of democracy that are superior to US style government in many regards.

You're welcome to consider others, as I've also suggested, but the USA is not a bad model to start with.  For what it's worth, the USA is a republic, not a true democracy.  But our system is typically called "American Democracy" --and then there are some sore losers this election cycle complaining that the executive branch should be a pure democratic election.

Point is, the system is designed to withstand the whims of the populism while also franchising it, and it's done okay in that regard for a few hundred years.  Of course, the system never had to endure a phenomenon like the internet so maybe the system is breaking not bending.  I truly believe the next 2 years will really test that inherent flexibility.  We'll see.

[tigerbengal]

Check this article.....the alt-right are busy spreading lies and hate all over the place....the comments section are NOT REAL ANYMORE...THE ALT RIGHT ARMY TROLLS ARE IN ALL THE COMMENTS SECTIONS TOO

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/for-the-new-yellow-journalists-opportunity-comes-in-clicks-and-bucks/2016/11/20/d58d036c-adbf-11e6-8b45-f8e493f06fcd_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_opportunists-633pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

 

[MattH]

21 hours ago, Simon Shasha said:

I have seen a handful of reports about what ISIS has done in regards to my people. What I wish to uncover and show is how the more "moderate rebels", as Western media phrases it, have also done the exact same things to us that ISIS have. That is what I was getting at.

Though I disagree with some parts of the article, i.e. "U.S.-led Western coalition trying to restore stability with an as-yet-unidentified new regime" (that's a nice way of saying "we're trying to overthrow a government and replace it with a government that is favourable to us"), I am glad to see my people's plight get exposure, regardless. 

The only issue I would take in how you phrase things is using the word "Western" or "US led".  There is no more a coherent western position than there is a coherent Syrian position.  By saying western it sounds to some that you are against 'western' liberalist values such as free speech etc, which I am sure is not the case.   If you were to say "Globalist corporatist factions of the western establishment" or something along those lines, it would help avoid this misconception.

The fact is that these factions are only getting away with this because the corporatist media are brain washing everyone.  They exploit the fact that people understandably have suspision of dictatorial governments, but if the media were honest that western agencies where arming and militarily supporting wahabist islamists (the word extremist is obviously superfluous), and were honest about what these people represent, then more people in western countries would be opposed to it.

[Simon Shasha]

2 hours ago, MattH said:

The only issue I would take in how you phrase things is using the word "Western" or "US led".  There is no more a coherent western position than there is a coherent Syrian position.  By saying western it sounds to some that you are against 'western' liberalist values such as free speech etc, which I am sure is not the case.   If you were to say "Globalist corporatist factions of the western establishment" or something along those lines, it would help avoid this misconception.

The fact is that these factions are only getting away with this because the corporatist media are brain washing everyone.  They exploit the fact that people understandably have suspision of dictatorial governments, but if the media were honest that western agencies where arming and militarily supporting wahabist islamists (the word extremist is obviously superfluous), and were honest about what these people represent, then more people in western countries would be opposed to it.

I agree wholeheartedly

And I see how my wording may be taken as a generalisation - which I didn't intend, but yes, when I say "Western" and "U.S. led", I do mean the corporate run-and-owned media, and military-industrial-complex influenced governments of the West - not the citizens of the West, nor Western values - which I cherish, personally.

Every so often, I am given hope when I read posts like yours - it reminds me that not everyone has fallen victim to the propaganda the corporate Western media has put out against Syria (and Russia).

Back when the war began, and all these "rebels" from Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Libya, Chechnya, and so on, began flooding into Syria and attacking our towns and villages, I would turn on mainstream Western media, and they were framing it as some sort of popular uprising for democracy. Nobody was saying a word about the Wahhabi and Salafi filth that the Gulf/Turks and NATO had sent our way - and when they did, they would call them "army defectors", "freedom fighters", "rebels fighting for democracy" - nor did they ever say a word about how our country was being punished because our government refused to bend the knee to the Saudi/Qatari/Turkish gas pipeline...

I really thought it was going to be the end of us - I thought that everyone in the West was going to fall for it the way they fell for the whole Iraq WMD lie...

We're still here though. Still holding on...

You know, the second point you made is very important - very crucial. It actually reminded me of an article (http://www.ecowatch.com/syria-another-pipeline-war-1882180532.html) written by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. for EcoWatch back in February called "Syria: Another Pipeline War".

He said:

"As we focus on the rise of ISIS and search for the source of the savagery that took so many innocent lives in Paris and San Bernardino, we might want to look beyond the convenient explanations of religion and ideology and focus on the more complex rationales of history and oil, which mostly point the finger of blame for terrorism back at the champions of militarism, imperialism and petroleum here on our own shores.

America's unsavory record of violent interventions in Syria—obscure to the American people yet well known to Syrians—sowed fertile ground for the violent Islamic Jihadism that now complicates any effective response by our government to address the challenge of ISIS. So long as the American public and policymakers are unaware of this past, further interventions are likely to only compound the crisis. Moreover, our enemies delight in our ignorance."
 

Somebody actually emailed me a video today that address that exact article, and how Western mainstream media never gives their audience the important facts or the full-story (in this case, regarding Syria):
 

 

Perhaps the fall of the Clintons, and their neo-con and elitist cohorts and partners in the mainstream media, is the beginning of the end of the mainstream media...

I can't help but feel that there is a sense of awakening in the air - it seems as though the great majority of people do not trust the mainstream media anymore. For me, personally, I couldn't understand how anyone could trust them after the Iraq WMD debacle - not only the lies and manipulation, but the way the mainstream media cheered on and beat the drums of war was disgusting. F**king disgusting.

I'm glad you are a truth seeker, Matt. It is refreshing to see

[fuzzynormal]

I'd say it's fair to assume we're going through the next "Gutenberg" moment.  My opinion is that digital, in all aspects, is culturally revolutionary on a global scale.  Having enough information is not going to be the problem anymore.  Having reliable information is going to be next to impossible.  

[Kisaha]

Libels, yellow press, propaganda, demagoges, misinformation was always here. Since the ostracization in Athens (civilians were writing names in shells, of people wanted to exile), the offending graffiti in Pompei, to ever.

Always (self-)education, logic and reasoning are the only "weapons" we civilized humans have.

As I said before, it is an evolutionary thing, maybe we humans are not ready to go further, maybe we have to pause for a bit, take a few steps back, and decide from there. A lot of things happened the last couple of centuries, maybe some peole's bodies and minds are not capable to process, and evolve.

Do not forget that we still have some Neanterdals genes in our genome. Some people more so!

On a more positive note, at least things have been accelerated, this "steps back" may won't last 1200 years, like the last time!