Film School

[LippyLee]

I am quite curious of the opinion of this forum on taking a degree in film.

I understand that many would say its a waste of time and with the wealth of information available online, there is little reason to study film in an institute of higher education. Although individual talent does matter most, I wonder if there are any film school graduates here who can at least provide a positive argument on why going to film school is good or whether you found it a waste of time. Does it help in your employability or ability to see things in the big picture etc?

I'm asking this as I am planning to do a postgrad degree in Film/Media Production and I come from a different field of study.

(hoping this thread sits well, I realize this is a forum mainly for gear!)

[Cinegain]

This debate gets brought up every once in a while. Now, I haven't been, but the general concensus I believe always was: film school isn't useless, though, it's not really about the material that's being taught. It's working on things together and connecting with people that you might stay in contact with for years after graduating. For that it's quite useful. A degree on your resume does look cool, but it's not the thing that sells your skillset and level of talent. A list of productions you've worked on and a filmreel will do that for you. Think it's more about being good at networking and selling yourself, than what some paper says... so... you can start learning things you might already know... or work on getting actual field experience. One is not better than the other, you got to walk your own path, if that includes film school, that's cool, if it doesn't, that's cool too.

[mercer]

I would even add that it may depend on the school you attend. In the US, you will, generally, make better connections from NYU, Columbia, Northwestern, USC, UCLA, etc... than you may get from a state school in the Midwest.

[LippyLee]

26 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

This debate gets brought up every once in a while. Now, I haven't been, but the general concensus I believe always was: film school isn't useless, though, it's not really about the material that's being taught. It's working on things together and connecting with people that you might stay in contact with for years after graduating. For that it's quite useful. A degree on your resume does look cool, but it's not the thing that sells your skillset and level of talent. A list of productions you've worked on and a filmreel will do that for you. Think it's more about being good at networking and selling yourself, than what some paper says... so... you can start learning things you might already know... or work on getting actual field experience. One is not better than the other, you got to walk your own path, if that includes film school, that's cool, if it doesn't, that's cool too.

Thanks for stating these points. They definitely helps me in organizing my thoughts regarding this issue.

11 minutes ago, mercer said:

I would even add that it may depend on the school you attend. In the US, you will, generally, make better connections from NYU, Columbia, Northwestern, USC, UCLA, etc... than you may get from a state school in the Midwest.

Point taken, I understand the importance of industry links/network of the university. As I am living in South East Asia, the likely destination for me would be Australia.

Sadly, the next biggest potential film market (China) doesn't have a film school that readily admits foreigners, otherwise, I had that in mind as a way of entering the Chinese film industry.

[hijodeibn]

56 minutes ago, LippyLee said:

I am quite curious of the opinion of this forum on taking a degree in film.

I understand that many would say its a waste of time and with the wealth of information available online, there is little reason to study film in an institute of higher education. Although individual talent does matter most, I wonder if there are any film school graduates here who can at least provide a positive argument on why going to film school is good or whether you found it a waste of time. Does it help in your employability or ability to see things in the big picture etc?

I'm asking this as I am planning to do a postgrad degree in Film/Media Production and I come from a different field of study.

(hoping this thread sits well, I realize this is a forum mainly for gear!)

If you are coming from a different field of study i think it is a great idea to take a post-grade, yes, you can learn everything working on the field, but certainly since you already have another degree, you will learn very quickly from school training, just don`t get crazy and took a huge debt for this post-grade, look for something affordable to you and the most important get feedback from people who already completed the post-grade you are interested in. Good luck!

[LippyLee]

Just now, hijodeibn said:

If you are coming from a different field of study i think it is a great idea to take a post-grade, yes, you can learn everything working on the field, but certainly since you already have another degree, you will learn very quickly from school training, just don`t get crazy and took a huge debt for this post-grade, look for something affordable to you and the most important get feedback from people who already completed the post-grade you are interested in. Good luck!

Thanks! Cost is certainly a big factor :D

[Fritz Pierre]

I would say it depends on what you want to lean in film school....director....cinematographer....production designer...really only 2 ways to learn....film school or getting hired as a production assistant in a certain department (unless daddy or mommy is a director)....an amazing amount depends on the individual's personality and of course work ethic as anybody on a real set works their asses off...forums are informative, but it's not going to get you to that scenario where you spend 16 hour shoot days with crew and they're happy to see you again the next morning...

[Jacek]

I'm from Poland. Most of the best polish directors finished film school (Biggest one in Poland: Film school in Łódź):

Munk, Wajda, Polański, Kieślowski, Zanussi...

So it is quite usefull I think. At least statistics about directors in Poland says so .

[John_Harrison]

Honestly a lot of what I learned in film school was through experience. I'd say if you just challenged yourself to make a dozen small simple short films and a few more complicated / expensive ones you would get 60% of the film school experience. However there are a number of things you can get through film school which is much more difficult to find on your own. 

Most major schools have production equipment and post-production facilities that you can access for free*. This will allow you to play with equipment you probably couldn't afford on your own, and give you experience with industry standard (but slightly outdated) gear. 

*It's actually not free because you're paying tuition

Access to Mentors. Unless you have some friends in the film industry there isn't really another way to get professionals to critique your work. This can be really helpful and can do a lot to accelerate your learning. Good teachers can make a huge difference in your creative development, as they can challenge you and steer you in directions you might not have gone in on your own. 

Most important though is NETWORKING! If you're going to a film school, it has to be well regarded. It has to have active connections in the film industry. Look for notable alums who are working in the industry today. You're going to meet people in school, and some of these people are going to go on to get jobs in film and tv around the world. You want to be able to name drop your school at a job interview and have that mean something to your interviewer. My school has a good network of graduates in hollywood, and finding work can sometimes just be a question of posting in an alumnae facebook group, or asking friends who have graduated before you. I got my current job by responding to a post in one of those very same facebook groups, because my boss graduated from the same school that I did. 

Likewise it can be pretty hard to pull together a film crew who's willing to work for free, if you're not immersed in a community of people who are all trying to get as much experience as soon as possible and who genuinely love film. 

 

 

[tupp]

As others have stated, attending film school can help in networking and in quickly learning basic filmmaking concepts.  The importance of the networking advantage cannot be overstated.

However, if you just started film school and if you want to get set experience by working on a third-tier level (electrician, grip, set dresser, 3rd AD, etc.) on a medium/large set, it would be wise not to let anyone know that you are a film student.  Film students are notoriously lazy, presumptuous set workers, and most department heads would sooner hire an enthusiastic novice right off of the street, rather than having to contend with a "privileged" film school attendee.

If you are a film student and find yourself working on set at a third-tier level, make sure that you do your specific, minor job to the best of your ability, and do not try to always be around the camera, director, DP, jib, etc.  Always go through channels -- avoid talking directly to the director, DP and producer.  Also, do not criticize any decisions made by the director, DP, producers nor any department heads.

If you aspire to be a director, DP or senior editor (like most film students), there is something to be said for limiting your third-tier set experience, as dealing with the details of such jobs will take you away from focusing on the fundamentals of telling a story through moving pictures.  Same thing goes for frequenting forums such as this one -- if you want to direct or edit, avoid spending a lot of time learning about camera feature minutiae -- don't laboriously concern yourself with trifles such as rolling shutter, IBIS, DR, CRI, etc.  As a director, your main focus should be getting a performance out of the actors and effectively telling a story on film (digital).

[Cary Knoop]

7 hours ago, tupp said:

However, if you just started film school and if you want to get set experience by working on a third-tier level (electrician, grip, set dresser, 3rd AD, etc.) on a medium/large set, it would be wise not to let anyone know that you are a film student.  Film students are notoriously lazy, presumptuous set workers, and most department heads would sooner hire an enthusiastic novice right off of the street, rather than having to contend with a "privileged" film school attendee.

If you are a film student and find yourself working on set at a third-tier level, make sure that you do your specific, minor job to the best of your ability, and do not try to always be around the camera, director, DP, jib, etc.  Always go through channels -- avoid talking directly to the director, DP and producer.  Also, do not criticize any decisions made by the director, DP, producers nor any department heads.

 

Jeez, North Korea looks mild in comparison!

 

[Geoff CB]

8 minutes ago, Cary Knoop said:

Jeez, North Korea looks mild in comparison!

 

tupp is 100 percent correct.

Had an older friend I invited to shoot BTS stills, he had said he had been on sets before. It must not have been many. 

He walked right up to the director in the middle of shooting and asked what the scene was about. He was kicked off set, I will never even mention his name to the director again. I don't talk to him anymore either, it was an important shoot day and he cost us time and my reputation took a hit.

Don't screw around, don't talk to the director, do your job. Or you will never work on that crew, or any of the crews that those people work on, ever again.

On film school: I echo what others have said, go to make connections for the future. Do not expect to walk out of film school and be directing features right out of the gate.

[mkabi]

On 11/23/2016 at 8:44 AM, Cinegain said:

This debate gets brought up every once in a while. Now, I haven't been, but the general concensus I believe always was: film school isn't useless, though, it's not really about the material that's being taught. It's working on things together and connecting with people that you might stay in contact with for years after graduating. For that it's quite useful. A degree on your resume does look cool, but it's not the thing that sells your skillset and level of talent. A list of productions you've worked on and a filmreel will do that for you. Think it's more about being good at networking and selling yourself, than what some paper says... so... you can start learning things you might already know... or work on getting actual field experience. One is not better than the other, you got to walk your own path, if that includes film school, that's cool, if it doesn't, that's cool too.

As I grow older, I find that this is true in any industry not just film.

Getting a degree is only part of the equation... but experience is a larger part... 

If you are planning a career in film... start building that portfolio.

[Cary Knoop]

26 minutes ago, Geoff CB said:

tupp is 100 percent correct.
 

If true then this industry is in a sad state of affairs:

Discrimination of people (students), stereotyping of people (lazy) and ostracizing people because they are critical (and no, i'm not talking about extremes like talking on set).

 

[kaylee]

so, film school. my question is this: what are your goals? to be a commercial director? a famous filmmaker? a great Artist™?

if the answer is the latter, that you want to be an artist who uses filmmaking within his practice, i would highly recommend going to "art school" and taking all the classes you might not have thought about taking: basic drawing, color theory, 2D design, ART HISTORY, etc. ykno those "foundation" classes that many art schools make everyone take even if youre majoring in film? these experiences will broaden the horizon of your creativity exponentially

"film school" is a different proposition. in general i feel like youll waste a huge amount of time at great expense. a KEY point to film school in our contemporary world is MAKING CONTACTS – in a place like LA. v few places like that, and theres tens of thousands of fresh film school graduates working at restaurants who can tell you that there are very few jobs in hollywood

if youre trying to create your own content, its a radically new era, you can do so much yourself, and broadcast it to the whole world. film school programs can be kind of nuts where you dont pick up a camera for the first year or something... imagine if i taught a drawing class with no pencils or paper for a year. people learn by doing, so just making ANYTHING will be hugely educational

2 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

He walked right up to the director in the middle of shooting and asked what the scene was about. He was kicked off set

??????

when i was going to art center, art school number three for me because i was pursuing an education not a degree, i was taking film classes, and the first day the department head asked, "When should you, a new person on a film set, tell the director your opinion?"

the answer was... NEVER!!!!!!! SHUT THE HECK UP!!!

lol ppl dont get that when theyre new, i understand, but that was on day one bc its literally one of the WORST THINGS YOU CAN DO. to me this is common sense but its whatever*

*the only exception is in terms of safety

[Tarantinofan]

Do what you feel like, and do not let other people who are not your family or friends tell you how to spend your money and live your filmmaking endevour.

 

You like Film School, go to Film School. You don't, you don't. You have a good business, good. If not, work on it.

 

Don't be a Kanye West.

[IronFilm]

On 11/24/2016 at 8:04 AM, tupp said:

If you aspire to be a director, DP or senior editor (like most film students), there is something to be said for limiting your third-tier set experience, as dealing with the details of such jobs will take you away from focusing on the fundamentals of telling a story through moving pictures.  Same thing goes for frequenting forums such as this one -- if you want to direct or edit, avoid spending a lot of time learning about camera feature minutiae -- don't laboriously concern yourself with trifles such as rolling shutter, IBIS, DR, CRI, etc.  As a director, your main focus should be getting a performance out of the actors and effectively telling a story on film (digital).

I think a lot can be said for having a broad range of set experience if you're going to be a Director/DP/producer, as then it will make you a better Director/DP/producer as you'll be able to run the set better if you have a bit of an inkling of what the zillions of people under you are doing for their jobs. 

Plus your communication with the others on set can be a lot more effective if you can kinda talk "their own language" & translate. (i.e. understand a little bit of a camera lingo)

On 11/25/2016 at 3:29 PM, Geoff CB said:

tupp is 100 percent correct.

Had an older friend I invited to shoot BTS stills, he had said he had been on sets before. It must not have been many. 

He walked right up to the director in the middle of shooting and asked what the scene was about. He was kicked off set, I will never even mention his name to the director again. I don't talk to him anymore either, it was an important shoot day and he cost us time and my reputation took a hit.

Don't screw around, don't talk to the director, do your job. Or you will never work on that crew, or any of the crews that those people work on, ever again.

On film school: I echo what others have said, go to make connections for the future. Do not expect to walk out of film school and be directing features right out of the gate.

Yes, unless you are a HoD or in some other role which makes sense talking directly to the director (such as a lead actor, or the 1st AD) then....  don't!!

 

On 11/25/2016 at 5:35 PM, kaylee said:

*the only exception is in terms of safety

Nope, that is still not an exception. 

You should instead report the safety issue to the person above you. 

In extreme cases where that is ignored... you might consider going to the next person up in the chain, or similar, but you're still many steps away from the point of bringing it up directly with the director. 

[tupp]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

I think a lot can be said for having a broad range of set experience if you're going to be a Director/DP/producer,

In a few cases, it might help (especially if one is a producer), but having practical experience in a lot of the set details can be a hindrance, as one might limit efforts to what one thinks is practical.  So many great have things been accomplished by those who were completely clueless to the impracticality of a challenge.

 

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

... as then it will make you a better Director/DP/producer as you'll be able to run the set better if you have a bit of an inkling of what the zillions of people under you are doing for their jobs.

Directors/DPs/Producers should not run the set -- that's why we have ADs!

 

The director especially should concentrate only on acting and telling the story with the camera (along with the DP).  He/she shouldn't have to concern himself/herself with most of the practical details.

 

On 11/25/2016 at 8:35 PM, kaylee said:

when i was going to art center, art school number three for me because i was pursuing an education not a degree,

Nice to know that a fellow alumnus is on the board!  I consider it more of a professional design school rather than an art school.  Most of us were pursuing a profe$$ional education when I attended.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, tupp said:

Directors/DPs/Producers should not run the set -- that's why we have ADs!

DoP's certainly do run their part of the set (camera and lighting departments). 

And while directors have a somewhat limited role during the actual shoot days in managing the details of running the set, they certainly do play a role in the pre production phase (a very large role in lower budget productions!).

And ditto Producers, they absolutely should understand more about the roles on set to make sure they're budgeting appropriately. Thus a bit of a diverse on set experience for themselves wouldn't go amiss! 

1 hour ago, tupp said:

So many great have things been accomplished by those who were completely clueless to the impracticality of a challenge.

And so much money has been wasted and so many failures in the process too......    

[kaylee]

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

On 11/25/2016 at 8:35 PM, kaylee said:

*the only exception is in terms of safety

Nope, that is still not an exception. 

You should instead report the safety issue to the person above you. 

In extreme cases where that is ignored... you might consider going to the next person up in the chain, or similar, but you're still many steps away from the point of bringing it up directly with the director. 

yep thats true @IronFilm on a literal level that is absolutely correct, hear hear. i meant like if a bullet is headed for the director in slow motion

 

5 hours ago, tupp said:

On 11/25/2016 at 8:35 PM, kaylee said:

when i was going to art center, art school number three for me because i was pursuing an education not a degree,

Nice to know that a fellow alumnus is on the board!  I consider it more of a professional design school rather than an art school.  Most of us were pursuing a profe$$ional education when I attended.

yeah for sure. art center is a unique place. the most talented student body ive ever seen... most of the people walking the halls are geniuses

i got a p good fine art scholarship transferred to the film program ?  both weird majors for art center believe me i know. but my vision was always to learn from the whole school as much as possible. like i went and talked to the transportation design students and hung out with them (amazing), learned about rapid prototyping and stuff.

not surprised that youre an art center alumnus @tupp~! youre smart

i avoided leaving with a huge amount of debt, but some ppl were in $300k+

thats frickin crazy. thats a house (not here tho lmao)