The £3-£4K Market

[TheRenaissanceMan]

47 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

You could get TWO of *both* and still probably manage to squeak in under budget!

And spending less on your camera means a bigger budget for support, lenses, lights, etc.

[martinmcgreal]

I have to make a compromise with one or two specs, that goes without saying when rooting in such a price-range .. I just refuse to compromise on the following; motion cadence, colour science, and decent low-light. I'd add resolution (4K), since I want to shoot 2x anamorphic w/ a 2.66 delivery, but I'll happily drop to 1.5x anamorphic if a 2K image warrants it .. 

I've probably not flagged up motion candence enough as an essential spec, but for me, it's exactly that. Issue here however, is it's the one spec that can squeeze an option list of say ten cameras, down to one or two at a push. I mean, how many cameras in this price-range have what you'd deem as truly cinematic motion? The MX, D16, anything else? It's why I'm struggling to warm to the F3 as an option .. It delivers in absolutely every category except motion, in my opinion .. You'll disagree, but I've spent the past couple of weeks viewing hundreds of clips from this camera, and side by side with being blown away by the image, it still has a hint of video to it's motion, which is the deal-breaker for me .. 

It's the kind of spec that rarely makes it into a spec priority list (even I can account for this with my opening post), however it's one you soon realise is absolutely essential. You can spend thousands of pounds on systems in this price-range, accompany it with beautiful glass, a fantastic script, cinematic lighting etc., and yet once you sat there in the edit suite watching back the rushes, your scratching your head thinking 'the image still just doesn't feel right, or truly cinematic', and you soon realise why .. It's the reason I'm passing on my pocket camera, amongst other reasons. I'm not saying cinematic images can't be produced without cinematic motion, as good lighting can achieve this alone, but at least for me, to be truly lost into the cinematic world we're so familiar with, the motion candence of a camera has to be cinematic too. 

If anyone would like to provide additional examples to the MX/D16 of cinematic motion in this price-range, please please do, as that might just sway me towards a conclusion on which system to opt with. I assume the higher end Blackmagic's may pop up here, given global shutter and all that .. 

 

 

 

 

 

[mat33]

Personally I would stick with a RAW capable camera, having gotten used to RAW it is hard to imagine going back to a thinner image.  

IMO at this price point, I think the D16 has the most 'cinematic' image, both colour and especially motion cadence.  The D16 just nails skin tones, and handheld looks so nice with the global shutter.  It is also very versatile -can use it 'barebones' with the handle and an evf for run & gun or rig it up for more organised shoots.  Its not a low light monster (and there is no in-camera noise reduction) but the noise pattern is very nice -if I have to I usually lightly remove any chroma noise and leave the luminance noise in neat video. With speedbooster or fast glass its more than capable in low light.  Its also a very complete package -versatile m4/3 mount (PL available), can use BMPCC speed booster, good pre-amps, XLRs and no expensive media.  It biggest weakness is that it doesn't look like the other 'serious' cinema cameras -if it was a black box, had skulls on it and was called the D16 raptor, then it would be way more popular :-)

I would also carefully consider the 5D mark iii with ML as the RAW on this is also quite beautiful in a small package.

 

This was shot at a narrow shutter angle with no NDs, early firmware version, has a nice global shutter whip pan:

This was vintage c-mount lenses and natural light:

 

[webrunner5]

Well martinmcgreal here is your answer right here, buy the damn thing Now. Hurry! Need to get it for  little less, but I bet you can.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/35666868707/permalink/10154835915523708/?sale_post_id=10154835915523708

[Laurier]

My overall personal experience after having a Bmpcc , GH4, a7s + recorder and some production with them are that ... I m done with dslr style camera .

Either the codec or the battery or the colors are issues (or rolling shutter ect)...

 

So I decided to move to something more professional and also considered a red one , a kinefinity terra and a Ursa mini

( I m doing creative work so I need a bit of slow mo, so no canon)

 

At the end of the day I went with the ursa mini 4.6k .

The red one is just too heavy, won t have warranty and the accessories are not transferable with the more modern red cameras,  it s fine if you have small crew around you , but as the solo operator it s too hard to manage IMO ( and no 4k 60fps ) But the image is great and the workflow too.

I actually pre ordered the terra 5k, but canceled it after so many delays, also one of my a7s died on shooting and made me realize how important it is to be able to send your camera for repair easily, with Kinefinity you have to send your camera back to china ...so also a no go.

 

 

Red mx brains (either scarlet or epic ) prices are dropping but the accessories are still quite expensive .

 

 

[webrunner5]

7 minutes ago, Laurier said:

My overall personal experience after having a Bmpcc , GH4, a7s + recorder and some production with them are that ... I m done with dslr style camera .

Either the codec or the battery or the colors are issues (or rolling shutter ect)...

 

So I decided to move to something more professional and also considered a red one , a kinefinity terra and a Ursa mini

( I m doing creative work so I need a bit of slow mo, so no canon)

 

At the end of the day I went with the ursa mini 4.6k .

The red one is just too heavy, won t have warranty and the accessories are not transferable with the more modern red cameras,  it s fine if you have small crew around you , but as the solo operator it s too hard to manage IMO ( and no 4k 60fps ) But the image is great and the workflow too.

I actually pre ordered the terra 5k, but canceled it after so many delays, also one of my a7s died on shooting and made me realize how important it is to be able to send your camera for repair easily, with Kinefinity you have to send your camera back to china ...so also a no go.

 

 

Red mx brains (either scarlet or epic ) prices are dropping but the accessories are still quite expensive .

 

I agree, DLSR or even mirrorless just suck ass compared to a camcorder form factor. Having to hang 20 things off a cage is just crazy. Non of it is great but at least real cine cameras have most of the stuff you need as buttons, knobs, etc. I HATE complex menus to get to stuff. But for most people I think this new GH5 might be pretty much all you need rigged up well. The price will be right for what it can do I bet compared to the rest of the pack in it's price range.

Will be Very interesting what the next Sony A7s will have to counter it. They are going to have to make a bigger body for better heat dissipation and battery life to make it really a top notch trustworthy outlay. Man I can't have something that Maybe will work, it has to for that much.
 

 

[zerocool22]

Yeah prices are dropping fast on the MX camera's. If you got time, I reckon you can get a used epic mx kit for 5-k in 6 months as tech is changing fast, as more ravens and scarlet-w's have hit the market. Im sticking to my A7S II for another 6 months, then I shall see what way I will go. GH5 might be a cheap option though, but Ill have to wait and see.

[martinmcgreal]

6 hours ago, mat33 said:

Personally I would stick with a RAW capable camera, having gotten used to RAW it is hard to imagine going back to a thinner image.  

IMO at this price point, I think the D16 has the most 'cinematic' image, both colour and especially motion cadence.  The D16 just nails skin tones, and handheld looks so nice with the global shutter.  It is also very versatile -can use it 'barebones' with the handle and an evf for run & gun or rig it up for more organised shoots.  Its not a low light monster (and there is no in-camera noise reduction) but the noise pattern is very nice -if I have to I usually lightly remove any chroma noise and leave the luminance noise in neat video. With speedbooster or fast glass its more than capable in low light.  Its also a very complete package -versatile m4/3 mount (PL available), can use BMPCC speed booster, good pre-amps, XLRs and no expensive media.  It biggest weakness is that it doesn't look like the other 'serious' cinema cameras -if it was a black box, had skulls on it and was called the D16 raptor, then it would be way more popular :-)

I would also carefully consider the 5D mark iii with ML as the RAW on this is also quite beautiful in a small package.

This was shot at a narrow shutter angle with no NDs, early firmware version, has a nice global shutter whip pan:

This was vintage c-mount lenses and natural light:

 

Whilst the 35mm look isn't really my taste anymore, it's hard not to fall in love with the D16's image. It's the type of camera that your more than happy to make comprises for, in terms of say low-light and resolution, for that colour and motion. It's definitely under my consideration, that's for sure. Just a shame it's so difficult to come across in the current market (?) What's the issue with these things crashing etc. too? I've never looked deeply into the D16's flaws, but you see people flag it up every-time these are topics of discussion. 

4 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Well martinmcgreal here is your answer right here, buy the damn thing Now. Hurry! Need to get it for  little less, but I bet you can.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/35666868707/permalink/10154835915523708/?sale_post_id=10154835915523708

Cheers. I can't access the link however until my request to join the group is accepted, and worth noting too, I don't actually have the funds to make a purchase as of now. More March/February.

4 hours ago, Laurier said:

My overall personal experience after having a Bmpcc , GH4, a7s + recorder and some production with them are that ... I m done with dslr style camera .

Either the codec or the battery or the colors are issues (or rolling shutter ect)...

 

So I decided to move to something more professional and also considered a red one , a kinefinity terra and a Ursa mini

( I m doing creative work so I need a bit of slow mo, so no canon)

 

At the end of the day I went with the ursa mini 4.6k .

The red one is just too heavy, won t have warranty and the accessories are not transferable with the more modern red cameras,  it s fine if you have small crew around you , but as the solo operator it s too hard to manage IMO ( and no 4k 60fps ) But the image is great and the workflow too.

I actually pre ordered the terra 5k, but canceled it after so many delays, also one of my a7s died on shooting and made me realize how important it is to be able to send your camera for repair easily, with Kinefinity you have to send your camera back to china ...so also a no go.

Red mx brains (either scarlet or epic ) prices are dropping but the accessories are still quite expensive .
 

2 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Yeah prices are dropping fast on the MX camera's. If you got time, I reckon you can get a used epic mx kit for 5-k in 6 months as tech is changing fast, as more ravens and scarlet-w's have hit the market. Im sticking to my A7S II for another 6 months, then I shall see what way I will go. GH5 might be a cheap option though, but Ill have to wait and see.

This is one of my options too - as in, waiting even longer to make a purchase, say until the summer, for a much pricier yet superior system. As ever though, once you've fell out of love with a camera, and have your eyes peeled on an upgrade, it's hard to wait much longer. 

[Stanley]

Buy the UM4.6 because it's a brand new camera being used by recognised camera professionals eveywhere, and you get all the software for editing for nothing. It's a no brainer if your talented enough to use BMD. Wish I was cause I'd buy 2 tomorrow.

[Liam]

3 hours ago, martinmcgreal said:

Whilst the 35mm look isn't really my taste anymore, it's hard not to fall in love with the D16's image

do you mean 16mm? - just confused, but if that's what you meant, you can speedboost it to help that (as well as low light)

 

also, a few things

your top requirements are now the most subjective (cadence, good color, softishness)

I was pretty sure the pocket was supposed to have some of the best cadence. you can add the 1dc to the best cadence list for sure by the way.

the f3 was the camera Ed used on his film Five Star. all handheld style filming, great test of cadence. maybe "not perfect", but "better than some" could even be an understatement

maybe make sure you're comparing to the kings in the cadence arena too (f65, alexa, film) and that you're not just now discovering a problem with your display or noticing 24fps as a problem or something, because of suuuper intense pixel peeping

I'm confused how you like graded 8-bit c-log you're seeing, but you're concerned about how well it holds up to grading (your looks may be more intense I suppose, or just in case there's a problem shooting you can correct it - but 1dc/c300 footage doesn't look too thin or artifact filled at all).

also, I assume you have experience with the anamorphic lenses in question, but that glass has potential to both make sharp 4k more cinematic (especially opposed to online tests using L-series lenses or god knows what) - and not be a problem for good 1080p to cover.

probably all of your options and more have been suggested though. it's okay to have opinions and be picky here, it's a big purchase. but maybe the only thing you can do now is mull on it. remember the audience could be amazed by just about any of those suggested and/or not notice the difference (not that you shouldn't fall in love with the camera, but if you hate all of them.. that's too far the other way)

[Stanley]

On 12/8/2016 at 10:16 PM, martinmcgreal said:

So, I’m looking to make a camera purchase around Feb/March in the £3,000 to £4,000 market, new or used, as an upgrade to my current pocket camera. It will be mainly for narrative work/passion projects, so I want a ‘cinema’ camera as per say .. w/ the following specs;

13+ stops Dynamic Range

4K (2x Anamorphic Friendly)

Solid Colour Science

Minimum 10 bit 4:2:2 (Internal, Ideally)

Good Low-Light

Happy to lose a stop of dynamic range in exchange for good solid low-light. I’ve looked at the popular options, shall we say, and nothing appears to be ticking every box - except say a used MX, which is tempting, but its size, age and miles on the clock makes you think twice .. 

I can’t warm to Sony’s colour science, and Blackmagic’s 4K cameras, excluding the 4.6K, aren’t low-light cameras either. Sadly, the 4.6K is out of my price range too, given it's closer to £6K once fully kitted, right? My taste in Blackmagic’s image has soured somewhat too - these systems produce fantastically clinical/sharp images, however I want an image more on the softer/milkier side straight out of the sensor. I appreciate this can be influenced through choice of glass/filters, but you get my gist .. 

May well be worth me delaying a purchase even longer until NAB or the GH5’s release, though I can’t see the latter ticking the above boxes? Alternatively, perhaps I’m scowling the market for a camera with the above specs that just isn’t available in my price range? 

Cheers

Any chance to see some of your work ?

[webrunner5]

32 minutes ago, Liam said:

do you mean 16mm? - just confused, but if that's what you meant, you can speedboost it to help that (as well as low light)

 

also, a few things

your top requirements are now the most subjective (cadence, good color, softishness)

I was pretty sure the pocket was supposed to have some of the best cadence. you can add the 1dc to the best cadence list for sure by the way.

the f3 was the camera Ed used on his film Five Star. all handheld style filming, great test of cadence. maybe "not perfect", but "better than some" could even be an understatement

maybe make sure you're comparing to the kings in the cadence arena too (f65, alexa, film) and that you're not just now discovering a problem with your display or noticing 24fps as a problem or something, because of suuuper intense pixel peeping

I'm confused how you like graded 8-bit c-log you're seeing, but you're concerned about how well it holds up to grading (your looks may be more intense I suppose, or just in case there's a problem shooting you can correct it - but 1dc/c300 footage doesn't look too thin or artifact filled at all).

also, I assume you have experience with the anamorphic lenses in question, but that glass has potential to both make sharp 4k more cinematic (especially opposed to online tests using L-series lenses or god knows what) - and not be a problem for good 1080p to cover.

probably all of your options and more have been suggested though. it's okay to have opinions and be picky here, it's a big purchase. but maybe the only thing you can do now is mull on it. remember the audience could be amazed by just about any of those suggested and/or not notice the difference (not that you shouldn't fall in love with the camera, but if you hate all of them.. that's too far the other way)

I agree. The audience doesn't know if it was shot on a 8mm film camera or a Arri Alexa. And I doubt they would care if they knew. The story is king not the camera in a short or movie. And it has only been lately that there even has been 10bit cameras to buy that any normal person can afford.

I know no one wants to make a crappy movie looks wise, but in this day there are so many LuTs, editing programs, that I think you can make any camera look like any camera if you really want to. And if you expose right to start with there is plenty of meat even with 8bit to edit with.

I find to me I am in a crazy period right now anyways. When I look at 1080p it looks like crap to me now, and the 4k stuff looks too good, to digital, too sterile. So here I go paying big bucks for a 4k camera to make it look like shit so it feels better to view LoL. I don't know what the answer is other than find another business, hobby! A cheap one at that!

[webrunner5]

I found this chart about Red cameras that might be interesting to people buying the older models.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?70447-Differences-between-Scarlet-Red-One-and-Epic-Tech-Specs-Side-by-Side-Chart

[mercer]

46 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I find to me I am in a crazy period right now anyways. When I look at 1080p it looks like crap to me now, and the 4k stuff looks too good, to digital, too sterile. So here I go paying big bucks for a 4k camera to make it look like shit so it feels better to view LoL. I don't know what the answer is other than find another business, hobby! A cheap one at that!

It sounds like you may need some Mark iii ML Raw or a 2.5K BMCC... which are so cheap used now I am questioning why I am going to spend about the same for a new BMPCC...

[martinmcgreal]

45 minutes ago, Liam said:

do you mean 16mm? - just confused, but if that's what you meant, you can speedboost it to help that (as well as low light)

 

also, a few things

your top requirements are now the most subjective (cadence, good color, softishness)

I was pretty sure the pocket was supposed to have some of the best cadence. you can add the 1dc to the best cadence list for sure by the way.

the f3 was the camera Ed used on his film Five Star. all handheld style filming, great test of cadence. maybe "not perfect", but "better than some" could even be an understatement

maybe make sure you're comparing to the kings in the cadence arena too (f65, alexa, film) and that you're not just now discovering a problem with your display or noticing 24fps as a problem or something, because of suuuper intense pixel peeping

I'm confused how you like graded 8-bit c-log you're seeing, but you're concerned about how well it holds up to grading (your looks may be more intense I suppose, or just in case there's a problem shooting you can correct it - but 1dc/c300 footage doesn't look too thin or artifact filled at all).

also, I assume you have experience with the anamorphic lenses in question, but that glass has potential to both make sharp 4k more cinematic (especially opposed to online tests using L-series lenses or god knows what) - and not be a problem for good 1080p to cover.

probably all of your options and more have been suggested though. it's okay to have opinions and be picky here, it's a big purchase. but maybe the only thing you can do now is mull on it. remember the audience could be amazed by just about any of those suggested and/or not notice the difference (not that you shouldn't fall in love with the camera, but if you hate all of them.. that's too far the other way)

The pocket's candence, and blackmagic cameras in general, is far better than other systems within their price-range, but still not to the degree in which it feels truly cinematic, to my eye at least - though for the price, you can't really expect this either. I was on a shoot the other week in which shot w/ 2 x Amira's and a pocket as a C cam. I actually pulled the footage into post to compare candence between the two, amongst other characteristics. The pocket holds up really, really well to the Amira, as we've come to expect, but the difference in motion was there, and noticeable. 

8-bit C-log is indeed nice, but as you point out yourself, best to have 10-bit plus and be covered, for either a more intense look, or encase anything goes wrong in-camera. 

Your last paragraph sums up my current thoughts nicely. The plan is to spend the next few months mulling over a decision, especially with all this feedback now behind me. 

21 minutes ago, Stanley said:

Any chance to see some of your work ?

Sure - here's a selection of stills from the last narrative piece I shot w/ the pocket back in March, and here's my Instagram for further examples (though I don't update this as regularly as I perhaps should) https://www.instagram.com/martinmcgreal/

17 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I agree. The audience doesn't know if it was shot on a 8mm film camera or a Arri Alexa. And I doubt they would care if they knew. The story is king not the camera in a short or movie. And it has only been lately that there even has been 10bit cameras to buy that any normal person can afford.

I know no one wants to make a crappy movie looks wise, but in this day there are so many LuTs, editing programs, that I think you can make any camera look like any camera if you really want to. And if you expose right to start with there is plenty of meat even with 8bit to edit with.

I find to me I am in a crazy period right now anyways. When I look at 1080p it looks like crap to me now, and the 4k stuff looks too good, to digital, too sterile. So here I go paying big bucks for a 4k camera to make it look like shit so it feels better to view LoL. I don't know what the answer is other than find another business, hobby! A cheap one at that!

I could never debate that camera is more important than story, but if it wasn't important, we'd be out the job. Anyway, a debate for another day this, shall we say .. 

[mercer]

1 hour ago, martinmcgreal said:

The pocket's candence, and blackmagic cameras in general, is far better than other systems within their price-range, but still not to the degree in which it feels truly cinematic, to my eye at least - though for the price, you can't really expect this either. I was on a shoot the other week in which shot w/ 2 x Amira's and a pocket as a C cam. I actually pulled the footage into post to compare candence between the two, amongst other characteristics. The pocket holds up really, really well to the Amira, as we've come to expect, but the difference in motion was there, and noticeable. 

8-bit C-log is indeed nice, but as you point out yourself, best to have 10-bit plus and be covered, for either a more intense look, or encase anything goes wrong in-camera. 

Your last paragraph sums up my current thoughts nicely. The plan is to spend the next few months mulling over a decision, especially with all this feedback now behind me. 

Sure - here's a selection of stills from the last narrative piece I shot w/ the pocket back in March, and here's my Instagram for further examples (though I don't update this as regularly as I perhaps should) https://www.instagram.com/martinmcgreal/

I could never debate that camera is more important than story, but if it wasn't important, we'd be out the job. Anyway, a debate for another day this, shall we say .. 

Nice work, are you a director/dp? Was that footage Raw or ProRes?Gotta love the Pocket, just such a cinematic image... everytime I see something shot with it I wonder why I even bother with other cameras at this price point... even poorly shot footage looks pretty damn good. 

[webrunner5]

I really think buying a used Red now that they are 5k or less, maybe the real way to go and sort of have a camera that will work, no excuses, for 3,4,5 or more years. They can flat out get the job done, other than really low light.

And output in Raw with some killer footage to boot. Not making them work is the camera operators fault, not the cameras fault. Probably the best camera anyone can afford if you are sort of serious about making it happen for years to come. They are a workhorse, built to last camera. And you have no one to blame but yourself if it does not work. No need to upgrade etc.. They are that good, even the original Red One. MX is the way to go, but...

2 hours ago, mercer said:

It sounds like you may need some Mark iii ML Raw or a 2.5K BMCC... which are so cheap used now I am questioning why I am going to spend about the same for a new BMPCC...

Yeah but they have a passive lens mount which sort of sucks compared to the Pocket, internal battery also. But the 2k part of them is very tempting. You are right, they are a bargin for what they can output.

[martinmcgreal]

39 minutes ago, mercer said:

Nice work, are you a director/dp? Was that footage Raw or ProRes?Gotta love the Pocket, just such a cinematic image... everytime I see something shot with it I wonder why I even bother with other cameras at this price point... even poorly shot footage looks pretty damn good. 

I did both roles for that particular piece, but I'm a dp mainly. It was all shot in ProResHQ.

It's daylight robbery how cheap the camera retails for, given it's superior to systems five or six times the price. I'd always encourage even amateur shooters to make the pocket camera their first ever camera purchase. Yes, shooting/grading LOG images can be tricky/daunting at first, but you'd rather learn the hard way early on, than later. The menu system is perhaps the easiest/cleanest interface I've ever seen too, compared to say an A7S. 

32 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I really think buying a used Red now that they are 5k or less, maybe the real way to go and sort of have a camera that will work, no excuses, for 3,4,5 or more years. They can flat out get the job done, other than really low light.

And output in Raw with some killer footage to boot. Not making them work is the camera operators fault, not the cameras fault. Probably the best camera anyone can afford if you are sort of serious about making it happen for years to come. They are a workhorse, built to last camera. And you have no one to blame but yourself if it does not work. No need to upgrade etc.. They are that good, even the original Red One. MX is the way to go, but...

Yeah but they have a passive lens mount which sort of sucks compared to the Pocket, internal battery also. But the 2k part of them is very tempting. You are right, they are a bargin for what they can output.

I agree, and this exactly why it's perhaps worth me waiting even longer, to pull together the funds for say a Scarlet. I could make a purchase as early as next month, for a system that may last me a year or two, but for the sake of waiting an extra few months, I could purchase a system that would last me the best part of five years. It's a no brainer, when written like that. 

 

 

[Liam]

@martinmcgreal great images! Have you compared the pocket cadence in prores to raw? I heard raw is notably better

[webrunner5]

8 minutes ago, Liam said:

@martinmcgreal great images! Have you compared the pocket cadence in prores to raw? I heard raw is notably better

I agree. The grading is just to die for in those shots. That is what we all strive to get, as least I do. Well done!