The £3-£4K Market

[Laurier]

On 12/22/2016 at 4:16 AM, Geoff CB said:

Because the F35 is built like a tank compared to the easily broken Ursa, and has an incredible image without any magenta issues?

The magenta issue is a thing of the past, they fixed it with the last firmware , also the Ursa mini body is full magnesium, built quality is here , I was expecting something with more plastic but it s really not .

[Geoff CB]

1 hour ago, Laurier said:

The magenta issue is a thing of the past, they fixed it with the last firmware , also the Ursa mini body is full magnesium, built quality is here , I was expecting something with more plastic but it s really not .

I shot a short with 4.1. Magenta was in the corners when shooting wider than 28mm. Hope 4.2 fixed that.

The SDI for the viewfinder broke on set. I was shooting in the woods, the internal fan has no mesh covering, you can see right through the body. I used the camera on a low angle shot and a small twig jammed the fan, I had to shut down the unit and pull it out with tweezers.

It creates an incredible image, but build quality is far away from what's needed. I would rather they raised the cost to $10000 and up the build quality.

[John Brawley]

I've shot many broadcast hours on RED MX and that camera is realsitically only ISO 320 native and 1600 max useable ISO.  

I also just wrapped a show using 3 x Ursa Mini 4.6k that were used in very difficult conditions, including nearly two weeks of shooting in one of the hottest (42 deg average daily temp) and most remote parts of Australia without a single problem.  

This is the first time I've used them as the principal main camera on a TV drama series.  They worked very very reliably.  Only half my camera department of 7 had really worked on them and one of the focus pullers was very anxious about the camera.  By the end she was trying to convert the DP on the next show she was going to to use them over a RED Weapon.

We blew an SDI port eary on, most likely because of a fault with a wooden camera EVF modification.  (The wooden camera EVF mod blew up).

Ive had the same three bodies across a few shows now and they've now done more than a few hours.

If anyone has looked looked through the back of an Alexa you'll notice it's a lot like the Ursa Mini 4.6k.  You can see daylight through both of them. The back two thirds of an Ursa Mini 4.6k is just a big old heat sink.   I haven't had twig problems with my Ursa, but strangely the same twig problem has happened to me on an Alexa.  Grass stalk through the bottom of the vent caused a very loud noise mid take.  Go figure.  

In fact I once saw an arri rep pour water through the back of the Alexa through the top and watched water run out the bottom to demonstrate that it was just a heat sink in there...like the Ursa Mini 4.6k.  

Jb 

 

 

[martinmcgreal]

In my part of the world, the Mini 4.6K isn't available at any rental houses (as far as I can see), which I find interesting, considering how big the media industry is in the North of England now. I can only speak for commercials, since that's the area I work in, but it's as if it's not even made any sort of noise amongst professional's this side of town. Of course, Arri/RED systems will always be favoured for the bigger budget stuff, but even the more smaller stuff we (the production company I work for) shoot, FS7's w/ A7Sii as C cam's is usually the port of call, with Blackmagic's higher end systems never really entering the equation for consideration. 

Of course, every job demands different systems, and it's never always a case of 'well x camera is better than y camera, so let's use that', but it's interesting that for a camera (the 4.6K) which can produce such stunning results, it's yet to come under serious consideration by the rental houses this side of the country. Not suggesting anything with regards to the quality of the Mini 4.6K btw, with this statement, just merely stating an interesting fact, that if anything, frustrates me. I'm assuming the rental houses reasons aren't related to the quality of the camera, and instead, something else, perhaps logistically/financial, or just the fact the system is still relatively new, and their waiting for it's reputation to build? 

 

[John Brawley]

1 hour ago, martinmcgreal said:

I'm assuming the rental houses reasons aren't related to the quality of the camera, and instead, something else, perhaps logistically/financial, or just the fact the system is still relatively new, and their waiting for it's reputation to build? 

 

Commercials in my experience have the $$ so generally they want the more fully featured cameras. Remember until a few months ago, you could not load a LUT into an Ursa. 

On bigger shows the eco system is as important as the cameras look. I love Alexas a lot simply because of the way they integrate so tightly with the WCU4.  You can change settings without having to touch the camera and no stupid MDR hanging off your camera.  That stuff matters and that's where the more expensive cameras still have the advantage.

Look at the EVF.  It's actually one of the best EVFs I've ever used.  It's very underrated however, it's impossible to use on a geared head.  You can't get it back to the back of the camera.  The wooden camera mod lets you address that sort of, but it's still not very elegant and kind of a kludge, and frankly a little flakey.

Even on my own sets until the most recent shoot, the Ursa was a "C" camera and you're already grading it to match another principal camera.  

But I was pleasantly surprised at how great the Ursa can look when it's not pretending to be another camera.  Having it as the principal camera meant I can make it work to its own imaging strengths.  And that's where I think Blackmagic have done something really special with this camera.  

So bigger rental houses will only see it as an adjunct to other cameras.  Trying to grade this camera to look like an Alexa or RED isn't the best way to make the most of what it can do.  It's actually shooting with it on its own terms that its look comes into its own.  Something I imagine few have been brave enough to do.  

Thus, you won't see it in rental houses.

JB 

 

[webrunner5]

Pretty crazy how all Blackmagic cameras have the film look every filmmaker is striving to get, but the money is where you can cut your face with the detail that say a Arri can produce. For commercials I can see their point. Movies on the big screen you do need it to pop. 4k or more is the thing, and I can see why when a client looks at it. Hard to go back for them and pay big money for what seems less.

[martinmcgreal]

Following another viewing session of footage from both the D16 and Scarlet X this past week or so, I'm now definitely leaning more towards the latter. I've actually not been overly impressed with what I've seen from the Scarlet X, or more so for a system in such a price-range, though this probably hasn't been helped by mistaking it for Scarlet W footage at first, which is in another league entirely.

It's difficult not to fall in love with the D16 image, the more footage you view, and the longer you ponder on it. That CCD sensor .. Yes, it's not 4K, and yes, it's not a low-light camera either, but a fair argument can be made with the latter that such an inconvenience forces you into more considerate lighting, which can only benefit you down the road. It's also worth noting how easy the transition from the pocket camera to a D16 MTF will be, kit wise. Can you record ProRes externally via an Atomos Ninja with the D16? 

I'm by no means set on a decision, and won't be until purchase time, which is a fair few months away yet, but it's interesting just how far I've swayed from my original image appetite, which I guess speaks volumes for the D16. 

[Cary Knoop]

On 12/26/2016 at 8:58 AM, webrunner5 said:

.. the money is where you can cut your face with the detail that say a Arri can produce.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I thought that most Arri cameras are not capable of 4k resolution. 

I thought only the Alexa 65 is and only in special mode and that camera can only be rented for, what,  5k a day or up?

 

 

[webrunner5]

19 hours ago, Cary Knoop said:

Please correct me if I am wrong but I thought that most Arri cameras are not capable of 4k resolution. 

I thought only the Alexa 65 is and only in special mode and that camera can only be rented for, what,  5k a day or up?

 

 

Go to site and open up "Best Overall Image Quality" section . http://www.arri.com/camera/alexa/cameras/camera_details/alexa-xt/

[Cary Knoop]

4 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Go to site and open up "Best Overall Image Quality" section . http://www.arri.com/camera/alexa/cameras/camera_details/alexa-xt/

That camera is a 3.2K camera not a 4K camera.  It merely upscales to 4K.

 

[webrunner5]

9 minutes ago, Cary Knoop said:

That camera is a 3.2K camera not a 4K camera.  It merely upscales to 4K.

 

The sensor is 3.4k. Not much of a stretch "pun intended" to go to 3.8k, but I stand corrected.

[IronFilm]

Detail vs the resolution recorded are two similar but different things, don't forget that

[martinmcgreal]

Hate to bump this thread this again, but - couple of questions .. 

Is there any free resources online where I can download uncompressed footage from both RED systems (ideally the One/Scarlet MX), and also the D16? Besides shooting with the systems, this is probably the second best route for conclusive judgement. I've tried the Bolex website but the download links keep re-directing me to an ad page .. As for RED, I assume there's a ton on reduser, but I've yet to search that deeply - will do in the coming weeks .. Just asking here in the meantime .. 

Second question - does the D16 shoot 4:3? I can't see it anywhere on the spec sheets, but a quick google search directs me to a thread on this forum discussing 4:3 on the D16, so I'm curious? I assume it doesn't .. It's so difficult finding any anamorphic footage with the D16 too .. There's bits and pieces on Youtube/Vimeo but nothing more serious than quick unconsidered tests that look relatively poor due to user error. 

[webrunner5]

4 hours ago, martinmcgreal said:

Hate to bump this thread this again, but - couple of questions .. 

Is there any free resources online where I can download uncompressed footage from both RED systems (ideally the One/Scarlet MX), and also the D16? Besides shooting with the systems, this is probably the second best route for conclusive judgement. I've tried the Bolex website but the download links keep re-directing me to an ad page .. As for RED, I assume there's a ton on reduser, but I've yet to search that deeply - will do in the coming weeks .. Just asking here in the meantime .. 

Second question - does the D16 shoot 4:3? I can't see it anywhere on the spec sheets, but a quick google search directs me to a thread on this forum discussing 4:3 on the D16, so I'm curious? I assume it doesn't .. It's so difficult finding any anamorphic footage with the D16 too .. There's bits and pieces on Youtube/Vimeo but nothing more serious than quick unconsidered tests that look relatively poor due to user error. 

Well I think if you want to do Anamorphic you would be crazy not to do it with say a GH4 as cheap as you can buy one now. 4.3 is so cheap to do compared to other sensor sizes.

As to the Red footage I am surprised Vimeo would not have what you want.

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, martinmcgreal said:

Hate to bump this thread this again, but - couple of questions .. 

 

Well now you've bumped the thread in 2017 I'd say the answer is very clear after the GH5's announcement....   get a GH5! :-) 

[martinmcgreal]

20 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Well I think if you want to do Anamorphic you would be crazy not to do it with say a GH4 as cheap as you can buy one now. 4.3 is so cheap to do compared to other sensor sizes.

As to the Red footage I am surprised Vimeo would not have what you want.

19 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Well now you've bumped the thread in 2017 I'd say the answer is very clear after the GH5's announcement....   get a GH5! :-) 

It's a valid point, but as I've re-iterated throughout the thread, I'm looking for a cinema camera, and more on the high-end, which rules out both the GH4/GH5, given neither system is built specifically for cinema.

If I wasn't so picky about motion candence, such systems would come under consideration, but the fact I am so picky about it, limits me to a handful of cameras in this price-range, if that. It's frustrating - I wish I could look past it, but I've shot with so many CMOS cameras down the years that it's just become too big of a spec to continually skip on. I really would argue it's the key characteristic that defines the 'cinematic' universe viewers are so accustomed too, all be it a subconscious characteristic to everyone but filmmakers of course. Lighting, locations, production design, actors, writing etc. all vary from film to film, to different degrees of quality, but rarely ever does motion vary - it's the most common characteristic that remains the same in cinema, and as such, is the one we associate most within the cinematic universe/images - just most don't realise so. 

[webrunner5]

I think you are giving the audience way to much credit to be able to distinguish motion cadence. I can surely see why you don't like lesser quality, but the cost equipment wise is  pretty steep to benefit you and a handful that might notice it..

I don't consider the Bolex s16 as much of a offering. Now that they don't even make it anymore even more of a negative to me. Glorified BMPCC with less options. Form factor just sucks ass. Sure output nice, but at what price.

Red is your to go only real way for you it seems, but man the add ones for one is just crazy expensive, and low light is bad, as well as storage options. A Red kit is not for mere mortals LoL.Not counting a computer worthy of editing it. Way out of my price range. Maybe you will get a big pay raise this year!!

 

[martinmcgreal]

7 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I think you are giving the audience way to much credit to be able to distinguish motion cadence. I can surely see why you don't like lesser quality, but the cost equipment wise is  pretty steep to benefit you and a handful that might notice it..

I don't consider the Bolex s16 as much of a offering. Now that they don't even make it anymore even more of a negative to me. Glorified BMPCC with less options. Form factor just sucks ass. Sure output nice, but at what price.

Red is your to go only real way for you it seems, but man the add ones for one is just crazy expensive, and low light is bad, as well as storage options. A Red kit is not for mere mortals LoL.Not counting a computer worthy of editing it. Way out of my price range. Maybe you will get a big pay raise this year!!

 

I did say subconsciously .. It's not something they'd distinguish consciously until it was suddenly changed - i.e The Hobbit, which even laymen flagged up immediately. Yes, this was more down to the drastic shift in frame rate, but it stills ties into the whole concept of motion, and viewers noticing the motion feeling different to what their subconsciously accustomed too within cinema. I feel the importance of motion candence only ever comes to the forefront once you shoot with a system that delivers it cinematically. If you never shoot with such systems, you'll likely never miss it, as it can be subtle to the everyday eye, but once you do, and you jump back to a system that delivers more 'video-like' motion, you then realise the importance of it, in delivering images that feel truly cinematic.

It can become a petty debate though, so I'll leave it there. 

 

 

[webrunner5]

4 hours ago, martinmcgreal said:

I did say subconsciously .. It's not something they'd distinguish consciously until it was suddenly changed - i.e The Hobbit, which even laymen flagged up immediately. Yes, this was more down to the drastic shift in frame rate, but it stills ties into the whole concept of motion, and viewers noticing the motion feeling different to what their subconsciously accustomed too within cinema. I feel the importance of motion candence only ever comes to the forefront once you shoot with a system that delivers it cinematically. If you never shoot with such systems, you'll likely never miss it, as it can be subtle to the everyday eye, but once you do, and you jump back to a system that delivers more 'video-like' motion, you then realise the importance of it, in delivering images that feel truly cinematic.

It can become a petty debate though, so I'll leave it there. 

 

 

Heck of a good deal on a Red One MX. https://www.facebook.com/groups/35666868707/permalink/10154598779953708/?sale_post_id=10154598779953708

I can really see your point. But it takes a lot of money to not Have that happen. Something we sort of lack LoL.