How do you grain?

[Liam]

@Bioskop.Inc nice, I wish I had a camera that produced the grain on its own.

I did some more testing. I think what was bothering me before was just because I was zoomed in way too far. Also adding a touch softness to the grain made it match my footage a lot better, and kept me from whining and fussing with other adjustments to make it more aggressive. Anyway, this wasn't totally about my issues, other ways of graining welcome.

David F Sandberg said an interesting way on his vimeo a while ago, one image of grain that he randomized on his own, I believe? Talented guy

[Bioskop.Inc]

3 hours ago, Liam said:

@Bioskop.Inc nice, I wish I had a camera that produced the grain on its own.

I did some more testing. I think what was bothering me before was just because I was zoomed in way too far. Also adding a touch softness to the grain made it match my footage a lot better, and kept me from whining and fussing with other adjustments to make it more aggressive. Anyway, this wasn't totally about my issues, other ways of graining welcome.

David F Sandberg said an interesting way on his vimeo a while ago, one image of grain that he randomized on his own, I believe? Talented guy

The tip about using an adjustment layer is also a really good thing to do - I use FilmConvert that way (for colour &/or grain).

My the experiments with underexposure are iffy at best, as it's really difficult to get the footage shot in daylight to match stuff filmed indoors or in low light. But you see a lot of films that are clean one minute & then get grainy the next - so not everyone adheres to an even amount of grain.

The two free grains mentioned (VisionColor & Gorilla) are good to use.

[mercer]

@Zak Forsman and @Bioskop.Inc with your Micro and Pocket footage, respectively, do you guys denoise your footage before your correction/grade and then add the film grain as a title grade over the entire project... or do you just let BM's organic noise add to the grain effect?

[Zak Forsman]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

@Zak Forsman and @Bioskop.Inc with your Micro and Pocket footage, respectively, do you guys denoise your footage before your correction/grade and then add the film grain as a title grade over the entire project... or do you just let BM's organic noise add to the grain effect?

 

 

Usually I denoise, sharpen, and use DaVinci's new-ish built-in grain on the clip level. I get a lot of studio features in my line of work (freelance editor) and the grain they add is very, very similar to what DaVinci offers. I remember noticing it when i cut this piece for Triple 9. Youtube compression kills the grain, but in the master, I was taken aback by how heavy it was. This and others have been a nice education on how studio pictures implement it.
 

 

 

[mercer]

15 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

Usually I denoise, sharpen, and use DaVinci's new-ish built-in grain on the clip level. I get a lot of studio features in my line of work (freelance editor) and the grain they add is very, very similar to what DaVinci offers. I remember noticing it when i cut this piece for Triple 9. Youtube compression kills the grain, but in the master, I was taken aback by how heavy it was. This and others have been a nice education on how studio pictures implement it.
 

 

 

Thanks, I will check it out when I get the Pocket (my 2nd... ugh) I just purchased Red Giant Renoiser, during their annual sale, and it seems pretty decent but I am fairly new to grain. This is a shot from the Rx100v. It's my first attempt at slog2, but if nothing else I thought the grain from Reniiser added a nice texture...

Btw, your company's new feature... Dead Bullet looks great... can't believe it was shot with a gh4. 

[Zak Forsman]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Btw, your company's new feature... Dead Bullet looks great... can't believe it was shot with a gh4. 

 

thanks, the DP is a talented guy.

[Bioskop.Inc]

2 hours ago, mercer said:

@Zak Forsman and @Bioskop.Inc with your Micro and Pocket footage, respectively, do you guys denoise your footage before your correction/grade and then add the film grain as a title grade over the entire project... or do you just let BM's organic noise add to the grain effect?

Never denoise, never add grain on the Pocket footage - just looks so nice just as it is.

Now DSLR footage - always add grain in an adjustment layer.

If you are going to buy a denoiser then Neat Video is the best that i've used & it does a great job in the sharpening department too.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, Zak Forsman said:

Usually I denoise, sharpen, and use DaVinci's new-ish built-in grain on the clip level. I get a lot of studio features in my line of work (freelance editor) and the grain they add is very, very similar to what DaVinci offers. I remember noticing it when i cut this piece for Triple 9. Youtube compression kills the grain, but in the master, I was taken aback by how heavy it was. This and others have been a nice education on how studio pictures implement it.
 

 

 

Btw, I assume Triple 9 was shot with an Arri with Arriraw? Or even if not, didn't you rent an Amira or a mini a while back? If so, how clean are the shadows? Just out of curiosity?

[mercer]

21 minutes ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

Never denoise, never add grain on the Pocket footage - just looks so nice just as it is.

Now DSLR footage - always add grain in an adjustment layer.

If you are going to buy a denoiser then Neat Video is the best that i've used & it does a great job in the sharpening department too.

I've never denoised footage and only recently attempted to use any grain. After this week, I am finally done testing cameras and just going with the Pocket... like I should have back in 2014. I basically have most of the peripherals I need for it and a few hundred in BH gift cards, so I should have it by Christmas. If my memory serves me you shoot only with ProRes, correct? Do you use 100% zebras to expose it to the right? And if so, do you still get noise? When I had my dud pocket back in October, I shot only in mid afternoon sun and it seemed fairly clean, but I had the micro long enough to know that there are some noise issues, but as you said, it's fairly organic.

[Zak Forsman]

yeah, i never denoised pocket footage until DaVinci Studio 12.5. the noise reduction is as good as Neat.

[Bioskop.Inc]

21 hours ago, mercer said:

I've never denoised footage and only recently attempted to use any grain. After this week, I am finally done testing cameras and just going with the Pocket... like I should have back in 2014. I basically have most of the peripherals I need for it and a few hundred in BH gift cards, so I should have it by Christmas. If my memory serves me you shoot only with ProRes, correct? Do you use 100% zebras to expose it to the right? And if so, do you still get noise? When I had my dud pocket back in October, I shot only in mid afternoon sun and it seemed fairly clean, but I had the micro long enough to know that there are some noise issues, but as you said, it's fairly organic.

Yep, I just use Prores as RAW produces more artifacts (the dreaded M&A is worse in RAW) & quite frankley ProResHQ is flexible enough to be able to push grading quite a fair bit - if you're coming from H264, then you'll be in heaven! As far as I'm concerned, I never ETTR whilst using ProRes (in fact I never ETTR full stop, with RAW it can help but too much hassle) - so I set Zebras to about 90%, so extra sure nothing clips & expose properly! The whole ETTR thing was only meant for RAW & if you have to push anything over the top, then you're not filming properly - if you do things properly, you never have to worry. The wisdom amongst BM users for a while is just get it right, so you only have to make minor adjustments. If you are shooting with minimal additions (available light or minimal lighting, practicals etc...) then ProRes will give you enough wiggle room to achieve a good image. If you get noise outside during the day, you're doing something wrong. Indoors in low light, well show me a camera that doesn't & the Pocket's noise is not distracting - you can even push the ASA to 1600 and get very good images.

The obsession with prestine images just annoys me, as there are so many good films that aren't perfect - too much noise reduction & you get that plastic looking image, then you add grain back in......pointless. With BM cameras minimal noise is really pleasing to my eyes - nearly on a par with ARRI cameras. Too many people out there using these cameras without any grounding/experience in filming - I've shot film, so know what to expect & what's acceptable. Testing a camera to its limits, so you know what you like, is the first thing anyone should do when getting a new camera, but don't do stupid tests, do practical realistic tests - a candle in a blacked out room doesn't reveal anything apart from you can't film like that. When you find the limits to your taste, that's when you know when/how to add extra lighting, reflectors etc...

Practice, practice, practice & test, test, test. Once you know your camera, you'll do things through instinct & filming will become second nature.

Finally, use an IR Cut filter & NDs. 

[Cary Knoop]

4 minutes ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

The whole ETTR thing was only meant for RAW & if you have to push anything over the top, then you're not filming properly - if you do things properly, you never have to worry.

Perhaps if you have a 14+ stops of dynamic range on your camera you don't but mere mortals with pro consumer cameras must make compromises all the time. 

Keeping everything under 90% on a sunny day is bound to underexpose your footage.  Some highlights you just have to let go.  If you work against the limitations of your camera by underexposing you will get hurt in the low and even the mid ranges.

 

[Bioskop.Inc]

2 hours ago, Cary Knoop said:

Perhaps if you have a 14+ stops of dynamic range on your camera you don't but mere mortals with pro consumer cameras must make compromises all the time. 

Keeping everything under 90% on a sunny day is bound to underexpose your footage.  Some highlights you just have to let go.  If you work against the limitations of your camera by underexposing you will get hurt in the low and even the mid ranges.

 

Nah...90% is a good place to be, as you can still let things clip (you have to, that's filming & you don't keep things under 90%, you let them clip at 90%), so in the end you don't have nasty looking blown out shots & keep the majority of things exposed properly. 100% on the BM Pocket is for RAW & not for ProRes, just not a viable option whatsoever (as I said, ETTR is a false economy when filming in ProRes & for RAW only, if you want). Now, keeping the zebras at 70-80% is being ultra safe (again, you let things clip at that point), but a good place to start for beginners.

Anywho, Zebras are just a guide & not very accurate - I never use them to expose, just to let me know when things are clipping. I'm so used to exposing on the Pocket now that I do it by sight, its become second nature - you expose the shot not the hightlights, but again if you dramatically blow the highlights its looks nasty.

Gotta let go of ETTR!

On a sunny day, you simply can't under expose footage - well not in my world, just don't know how to.

[tweak]

On 14 December 2016 at 2:17 PM, Zak Forsman said:

the old way was to put your grain on a video layer above the clip and set its blend or composite mode to "overlay" and then to use a contrast filter on the grain layer to dial in the intensity. 

That's how I've always done it, I like the results.

[no_connection]

Using just overlay will leave dark and bright areas clipped without grain. I made a simple filmgrain network in Fusion 8.
I tried to emulate the 35mm v2 HolyGrain scan as my source grain. I think it's close enough.

Use the blend slider on the composit nodes to adjust to the material and desired effect.

BlackGrain and WhiteGrain adds grain back at the darkest and lightest part of the image. It will look bad if overdone so adjust carefully to add just a little grain, this will ensure that nothing is clipped at ether end, it will be monochromatic BW as grain at the extreme don't really inherit any color information.

The levels nodes can be used to adjust how the black and white grain clips if desired. But I think that looks digital really fast.

FilmGrain.comp

[hyalinejim]

It's good to be aware that actual grain on film lives mostly in the midtones. That's why overlay is generally used to add digital grain.

[no_connection]

Mostly, but clipping is a digital thing, and there is still some grain there. You only want to add a tiny amount. Try both, you can always turn off those two nodes. Also try both after compression.

[Liam]

2 hours ago, no_connection said:

Using just overlay will leave dark and bright areas clipped without grain. I made a simple filmgrain network in Fusion 8.
I tried to emulate the 35mm v2 HolyGrain scan as my source grain. I think it's close enough.

Use the blend slider on the composit nodes to adjust to the material and desired effect.

BlackGrain and WhiteGrain adds grain back at the darkest and lightest part of the image. It will look bad if overdone so adjust carefully to add just a little grain, this will ensure that nothing is clipped at ether end, it will be monochromatic BW as grain at the extreme don't really inherit any color information.

The levels nodes can be used to adjust how the black and white grain clips if desired. But I think that looks digital really fast.

FilmGrain.comp

very cool, that's something I was curious about. how do I use your file exactly?

[no_connection]

Well, The brightness/contrast nodes labeled Source/Out is where you input and output your video stream.
The top row generates the grain needed and the bottom row is where is is applied. And where you adjust it by the Blend slider.
0.2 blend of WhiteGrain and BlackGrain is probably where you end up in normal content. MainGrain is, well main grain adjustment.
*edit* The resolution of the grain layer is set by the Gray50 node.
And the grain size is set in the grain node. The sharpen node is to get it closer to the 35mm scan and contrast node is to adjust the amplitude to match it.