jonpais Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, Axel said: I am not a native speaker, I can't feel those niceties. I use many terms because others use them and so they seem appropriate. Should I have written natural instead? I don't think so. Focus isn't anything you are away of when seeing the world around you. Sure, you can hold your index finger in front of your nose and simultaneously look at the television tower on the horizon, but you wouldn't usually do that. DoF only exists in images, it has to do with aesthetics and sometimes with film language. She was so absorbed in thoughts, the world around her blurred. What we do though (but not by visually blurring the background and thereby isolating the object of interest) is that we perceive selectively. Test this: watch one individual in a crowd for a few minutes. You'll notice that you drift into some kind of trance. You know that there are other people around, cars, trees, traffic signs, you actually see them peripherally, but they become marginal. Your FoV is vignetted - it really physically is, like right now. I know there stands a bookshelf on my right side while I'm looking at the monitor, I know the books have different colors, but it's just as if they were blurred. Focussing has to feel right. How can you teach a software to make an adjustment feel right? Only if it allows you to program it. Sorry Axel, I didn't realize you'd even used the * word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arikhan Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 @jonpais @Axel I will make a video with these facts within the next two weeks. There are some more facts to consider, I've written them down. Example: During a concert in late August 2016, I made an interview with a band menber. It was a very bright, sunny day, the man stood (not sitting), the background was green (grass) and water. With standard AF it was impossible to get the artist in a constant focus with AF. The camera simply focused on background...Why? No clue... What I did: Though it was very bright (full sun and about 36 degrees Celsius, I remember very well), I put a LED light on his face. The hunting was gone... BTW: Distance to the subject (artist face and some of his chest) was about 65cm. During another run&gun interview, i put the FZ1000 very close to the face of my interview partner (hand held with Sennheiser mic on hot shoe). The interview was outdoor...The camera hunted like crazy on background...I got a miserable picture quality, it was pure garbage... The last "dramatic" situation was for me during an interview with a German bishop, I have loosed because I was alone and had to use AF...The camera hunted on background instead of focusing on bishops face (the guy simply didn't stand still - but this is the reality)...This was a desaster... After that I was tired of mediocre "AF footage", I begun to "study" the different scenarios and modes. I just wanted to get as reliable results as possible, not depending on luck when using AF. After some time of shooting and study, I got some good results: Quite perfect in focus footage of persons using AF in different modes (persons moving forth and back from camera, interview situations when subjects move a little bit forth and back). So far I am very happy with the results of my FZ1000. As you know, being perfectly on focus is one of the most important factors of my filming / photography. When possible I always use MF with additional control monitor (even when using a big shoulder camera), but when it isn't possible (unespectable run&gun situations, one man band, etc.) I need a reliable AF. @jonpais You shoot very much portraiture (faces). For this the two described methods (1. Face detection and 2. Specified area focusing) are quite reliable, in my eyes in more than 90% of situations). I will try to write down my experience and settings with the FZ1000 (but these settings are similar on all Pana consumer cameras) and will post some footage with excellent face tracking in low light. I will try being very precise in describing the situations, I used the different modes.... BTW: In cases with more than one face, it begins to get hard - because the camera can NOT know which of the faces you want to keep in focus (assuming you have Face1 about 1,5m, Face2 about 2,5m and Face3 about 4m far away from camera - subjects spread all over your field of view)... Please consider that I am not a experienced reviewer at all. I can only debate on practical facts I have experienced a lot of times. Axel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Axel said: I am not a native speaker, I can't feel those niceties. I use many terms because others use them and so they seem appropriate. Should I have written natural instead? I don't think so. Focus isn't anything you are away of when seeing the world around you. Sure, you can hold your index finger in front of your nose and simultaneously look at the television tower on the horizon, but you wouldn't usually do that. DoF only exists in images, it has to do with aesthetics and sometimes with film language. She was so absorbed in thoughts, the world around her blurred. What we do though (but not by visually blurring the background and thereby isolating the object of interest) is that we perceive selectively. Test this: watch one individual in a crowd for a few minutes. You'll notice that you drift into some kind of trance. You know that there are other people around, cars, trees, traffic signs, you actually see them peripherally, but they become marginal. Your FoV is vignetted - it really physically is, like right now. I know there stands a bookshelf on my right side while I'm looking at the monitor, I know the books have different colors, but it's just as if they were blurred. Focussing has to feel right. How can you teach a software to make an adjustment feel right? Only if it allows you to program it. The X-T2 (and I'm not name-dropping here because I'm infatuated with Fuji or anything, but because it's one of the only digital cameras I'm familiar with aside from Panasonic) has lots of customizable settings for AF-C; the GH5 will have at least four settings too, AFIK; and this is the future of cameras, at least as far as AF is concerned. Learning how to program your camera will take time and practice. So when Arikhan says that the X-T2 is third as far as his experience with AF goes, it could just be that he needs to spend time learning how to tell the camera what to do. I'm not 100% sure though, since to the best of my knowledge, those settings, just like face-detection (should there be a hyphen there?) are not even available when shooting 4K - and I'm not a stills shooter. What this means for enthusiasts is that, with the increasing sophistication of top-tier consumer cameras, photographers are going to be required to become more and more tech-saavy. And from an earlier topic here re: How to Save the Consumer Camera, one thing stands out: that apparently young people are not as computer literate as I once thought. @Arikhan I'm not referring to you here. 1 hour ago, Arikhan said: @jonpais You shoot very much portraiture (faces). For this the two described methods (1. Face detection and 2. Specified area focusing) are quite reliable, in my eyes in more than 90% of situations). I will try to write down my experience and settings with the FZ1000 (but these settings are similar on all Pana consumer cameras) and will post some footage with excellent face tracking in low light. I will try being very precise in describing the situations, I used the different modes.... BTW: In cases with more than one face, it begins to get hard - because the camera can NOT know which of the faces you want to keep in focus (assuming you have Face1 about 1,5m, Face2 about 2,5m and Face3 about 4m far away from camera - subjects spread all over your field of view)... Please consider that I am not a experienced reviewer at all. I can only debate on practical facts I have experienced a lot of times. The thing is, even the few times I tried using face detection, the camera showed the person's face as being detected, but when looking at the footage, it was out of focus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arikhan Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 @jonpais Quote The thing is, even the few times I tried using face detection, the camera showed the person's face as being detected, but when looking at the footage, it was out-of-focus. Please wait for my footage...I can only talk on the results I got with the FZ1000. When considering, that your camera is much more younger and advanced than mine, I still wonder that many of your shots are out-of-focus. No clue what is going on, but I will try to explain my settings and usage for different shooting scenarios... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Arikhan said: @jonpais Please wait for my footage...I can only talk on the results I got with the FZ1000. When considering, that your camera is much more younger and advanced than mine, I still wonder that many of your shots are out-of-focus. No clue what is going on, but I will try to explain my settings for different shooting scenarios... Remember that a one-inch sensor is much more forgiving of focusing errors than an APS-C sensor, or even u4/3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcuswolschon Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 5 minutes ago, jonpais said: Remember that a one-inch sensor is much more forgiving of focusing errors than an APS-C sensor, or even u4/3. Is it? With an aperture matching the same depth of field? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, marcuswolschon said: Is it? With an aperture matching the same depth of field? No, only when the Moon squares Pluto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arikhan Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 @jonpais Quote Remember that a one-inch sensor is much more forgiving of focusing errors than an APS-C sensor, or even u4/3. I am aware of this fact, but the only Pana consumer camera I own is the FZ1000 (1")...I don't own a Pana MFT...BUT when you take a look at the "AF-Kings", they all are APS-C or FF (Canon DPAF, NX1, X-T2, Sony). So sensor size should NOT be an excuse for manufacturers to offer completly unusable bullshit AF. With small sensors of broadcasting cameras it's much more easy to keep the subjects in focus, yes. But technology moves on and there are manufacturers offering phantastic AF on big sensors though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Arikhan said: @jonpais I am aware of this fact, but the only Pana consumer camera I own is the FZ1000 (1")...I don't own a Pana MFT...BUT when you take a look at the "AF-Kings", they all are APS-C or FF (Canon DPAF, NX1, X-T2, Sony). So sensor size should NOT be an excuse for manufacturers to offer completly unusable bullshit AF. With small sensors of broadcasting cameras it's much more easy to keep the subjects in focus, yes. But technology moves on and there are manufacturers offering phantastic AF on big sensors though... We await your tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanicalEYE Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Arikhan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arikhan Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 @mechanicalEYE 4 minutes ago, mechanicalEYE said: Looks great, but at 0:22 - 0:26 you can see, this is NOT AF. This was manual focus...Or is your posting not in context of AF? Dynamic shots (moving mountain bike) are with one hand gimbal and AF? Thank you for response! jonpais 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanicalEYE Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Just now, Arikhan said: @mechanicalEYE Lokks great, but at 0:22 - 0:26 you can see, this is NOT AF. This was manual focus...Or is your posting not in context of AF? Yes, just a post... not in context of AF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 5 minutes ago, mechanicalEYE said: You have to love the comments over at YouTube. Somebody asks, 'isn't there any sound?" Frickin' hilarious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamoui Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 9 minutes ago, jonpais said: You have to love the comments over at YouTube. Somebody asks, 'isn't there any sound?" Frickin' hilarious! I think the commenter was asking if the GH5 records sound while shooting in high frame rates because apparently the GH4 does not. What's wrong with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Nothing I've seen of Steven Clarey's footage on YouTube convinces me that the GH5 is any better than any one of Panasonic's lower end cameras. 1 minute ago, iamoui said: I think the commenter was asking if the GH5 records sound while shooting in high frame rates because apparently the GH4 does not. What's wrong with that? I could be mistaken, since I don't shoot high frame rates, at least I haven't in a long while, but I wasn't even aware that cameras recorded sound at 180fps. If I'm mistaken, please forgive me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Pierre Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 2 hours ago, jonpais said: This may not pertain to what Fritz is referring to, but from watching the video above, it appears that when purchasing V-Log L, you also get four LUTs which you can use to view a sort of graded image in-camera or through an external recorder. I never shot V-Log with my GH4, one of the reasons being it looked like mush in the viewfinder, the other being it really requires 10 bit for good quality. The GH5 should solve both of those issues. So I don't belong to the camp that says they wouldn't buy the camera if they have to pay for something that unlocks extra features. What I do object to is the 1990s way they are distributing it. @jonpais...yes...LUT preview is going to be available with the GH5...I think you're going to be able to load up to four preview LUTS, of your own choice though, (I hope!)...must say I'm very impressed with @Neumann Films LUT used in the footage he provided....I've shot with Vlog L both internally and on a external device...you have to pick your battles, but you get used to it and if you use Leeming's ETTR exposure method (listed on his website) it's fantastic!...(but for me the camera is really just a stepping stone to the story)...other's needs obviously differ hugely from my own...a last thought on VlogL for your ears only...if you're shooting internally....even on the GH4 you have to pick your battles...as my interest is narrative only, I can!...also production design....controlling wall color etc. makes a huge difference...not to reopen a tired old argument, but in fairness to Panny, I don't think it was really intended as a "walk around" tool, but a more professional enhancement tool...I am probably alone in saying that I'm glad they did not make the camera a $100 more expensive and include this, but made it a paid upgrade only for those who really want it....otherwise you land up with a lot of negative feedback when someone tries to use Vlog in a way not intended by the designers....+1 on the clumsy implementation method...they must have their reasoning I guess! jonpais 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshimo Garcia Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Hey guys, I am curious if anyone might have an idea if this is possible. I have the GH5 preordered for release, but with the SXSW coming a few weeks before its listed release date, I'd love to be able to shoot with it while I'm freelancing over the week. Do you think there is potential in me getting in contact with a Panasonic rep to see about getting an early released model to be used for covering the even with the agreement that I'd provide them with footage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Moshimo Garcia said: Hey guys, I am curious if anyone might have an idea if this is possible. I have the GH5 preordered for release, but with the SXSW coming a few weeks before its listed release date, I'd love to be able to shoot with it while I'm freelancing over the week. Do you think there is potential in me getting in contact with a Panasonic rep to see about getting an early released model to be used for covering the event? Sure, I'll let you borrow mine when I'm finished with it next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 3 hours ago, Arikhan said: When possible I always use MF with additional control monitor (even when using a big shoulder camera), but when it isn't possible (unespectable run&gun situations, one man band, etc.) I need a reliable AF. 3 hours ago, jonpais said: What this means for enthusiasts is that, with the increasing sophistication of top-tier consumer cameras, photographers are going to be required to become more and more tech-saavy. I'd rather have a camera be fully manual like my old Bolex 16mm or the Ursa Mini (insofar as you have two parameters to worry about: exposure and focus, even WB isn't important). I'd try to "customize" the GH5 to do that. Waveform would be an assistant for better exposure, peaking for better focus. AF - perhaps -for certain challenges, IBIS -perhaps - for others, both assisting me to achieve exactly what I have in mind. If the camera has automatic features, I'd trust them only so far as I could fully control them, delegate a thoroughly tested routine to them. I predict we are going to see hundreds of terribly degraded v-log clips this year, slomos of paint drying, terminator-vision autofocus and far away sparrows in 7,5 x slomo, terribly graded with focus transitions to a wind wheel in the foreground. That's when they fell in love with the GH5's virtues but never thought of controlling them. 5 hours ago, jonpais said: Recently, I've been noticing just how often that while I am focusing, (and I have the menu set to focus assist whenever I touch the focus ring on the lens), that I forget I'm in focus assist; and I go to change exposure with the dial, and instead of changing exposure, I've changed the magnification from 3X to 10X or something. Very annoying! And anyone who's ever used a Panasonic camera knows how useless 10X magnification is (you can no longer see focus peaking, for one thing). I don't know what Panasonic could do to avoid this from happening. Has anyone else here had this same problem? You can turn that off in the menu, was the same with GH2, there it was the default. jonpais 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKED-M Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Has this been posted? https://s04d.storage.yandex.net/rdisk/ea5a52ab6f166485504def18edbd765a9227204439dc72d1d9a20eabca3e807b/58800d30/1A6YoTnKCjjYtnUnKO2EeQKkBlqQGcC8mRmx-cAOZzhNqSaae4SXdMAF2MNWNnRuPnXbjUfflWZ06trMy0Rc3Q==?uid=0&filename=GH5_presentation_161226_Final.pdf&disposition=attachment&hash=DRnUU9msfNyIzmR6jQG3ghFH5VOLnI7%2BbC/SAFjR/7I%3D&limit=0&content_type=application%2Fpdf&fsize=4982440&hid=254fbfcd45972f69d42257dec9fe414b&media_type=document&tknv=v2&rtoken=zdMfLQM9f3YZ&force_default=no&ycrid=na-b64ee16ab8994786923cefdfbf607b39-downloader4d&ts=54667e939ac00&s=c3fd7f12c2ee17185c5421cc7288f2eeaf129bd3f6bfbc2bd7c518e5af6610f2&bp=/42/7/data-0.21:50117435719:4982440&pb=U2FsdGVkX1_a4HKHDhJQEURADl1VQipzMAr5dlcjWjK4eh5bVofhnS6wFu-x6Paua2-2xGze2ZQdi3QATr9QG9gD_E92Q-xNQ8f2xGIGhYc= Kisaha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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