Incredible RED sensor

[Don Kotlos]

2 minutes ago, tomekk said:

Are you sure software noise reduction (the one you can turn on/off in camera options) happens on the RAW data and not on a compressed file?

No, but that would be the optimal way of doing it. 

2 minutes ago, tomekk said:

Playing with a JPEG file I'm pretty sure I can denoise it much better in Photoshsop than through in camera option...

The implementation of noise reduction (or any other type of image processing for that matter) can unfortunately be very poor. 

I am not suggesting to always use internal noise reduction, but that if implemented properly it can actually give good results.  

[wolf33d]

42 minutes ago, noone said:

Well, it seems  you can buy the sensor now in the Weapon 8k.       Cost $49,000 for the brain (EDIT $29,500 with a lesser brain).    Add a basic recommended package $5,643 (and you still can not just shoot).     That will take 2 to 3 weeks to ship from Red.

http://www.red.com/store/products/weapon-brain-with-helium-8k-s35-sensor

Those Japanese cameras will cost less than the BASIC package needed to be able to use it and you can walk into a shop in many places and buy one.

Many of the mass produced things are being made by people working for an awful lot less than if they were made in the US (or almost any western country).

I can see a point where there wont be any workers in factories (or very few) and at that point you might start seeing production coming back to Western countries as costs will be the same.      We might be there already for some things but not yet for mainstream cameras.     

THIS, is not a mainstream camera and I doubt there would be a huge number of employees in the RED factory/factories.

I hope that cameras ARE made in the west and soon though as long as I can get what I want and can afford (this isn't either- way beyond me) I don't care where it is made really.

There is a big difference between Made in and Designed in. I was speaking about designed in. The made in just change the price but it does not change what the camera is (specs, innovations...) 

We lack of a Tesla-like competitor in the camera industry. People who truly innovate instead of spending their time thinking how to best cripple their product to protect their cine line. 

[tomekk]

40 minutes ago, Don Kotlos said:

No, but that would be the optimal way of doing it. 

Doesn't RAW data have to be converted to a correct colour space before doing anything else? How would denoising work on RAW data it it hasn't be converted to the target colour space. I thought it would look something like this: raw data>reference colour space>target colour space(sRGB/RGB)>denoising.

1 hour ago, Don Kotlos said:

The implementation of noise reduction (or any other type of image processing for that matter) can unfortunately be very poor. 

I am not suggesting to always use internal noise reduction, but that if implemented properly it can actually give good results.  

If 5dmk3 has poor implementation, then 99% of the cameras have poor implementation  

2 hours ago, wolf33d said:

I do not care that RED applies what ever correction and magic to their file and cook them for 10h before delivering it to my memory card. 

 

The point is, that sometimes magic is just magic and not what's really happening. Like current HDR TVs or 1080p on a Canon 5dMK3

[Ed_David]

Most of the stuff I've seen shot on dragon - like cough cough - some netflix shows and an unnamed Taylor Swift video- looks like a videogame.  I don't know why.  Maybe too clinical - too clean - no flaws like film - perfect edge to edge softness is so boring.  I like grain and mistakes.

 

 The Mark Toia thing looks great - but something about 6k or whatever it is - I can't put my finger on it, but me no likey.

So sensor tests be damned!

[Michael Ma]

I had my suspicions that a lot of the motivation to have a particular device rated, and not rate competitions on dxomark had to do with sponsorships.

[agachart]

this sensor made by Panasonic's Join Venture but why Panny used old tech sensor from Sony(is not stack,not bsi,not copper interconnection).

ha ha ha it is a real world joke. 

[zerocool22]

14 hours ago, wolf33d said:

I do not care that RED applies what ever correction and magic to their file and cook them for 10h before delivering it to my memory card. 

I care that what I get on my memory card is an absolutely fantastic looking 16 bit RAW image with 15.2DR and no noise. 
In a SS35 sensor... so imagine in FF..

I care that what we can buy for 3K today are 11DR in a GH5, or 14.8DR for stills in a D810 but with a body and logic (mirror) as old as my father and video capabilities of a 2010 phone. 

There is something wrong in this world. Why is there no US/EUR company making cameras? We have Apple in the US who completely changed the computer industry, then the music industry, now the phone industry and all those asian company copying what they do, taking them years to equal the product each time. 

Now why dont we have a Canon or Nikon from US? With people who can actually innovate and give us the best tech and innovations in products dedicated to photo and video. 
I am so tired of those Japanese company as classic as it gets serving us the same shit for years. Those guys are the most conservative people on the planet. Makes me sick. 

Now what a surprise RED is from California, and gives us a way better S35 sensor than any FF sensor ever done by whoever else. 
 

+1
Blackmagic is also in the game(hinging behind on the high end cinema lines). But I would like some more competition, as ARRI and RED prices are way beyond any hobbyist like myself can afford. But I do want that quality as I am really bored with all these DSLR specs and codecs. I would love a affordable cinema camera with a alexa or dragon image. If they only priced the alexa mini 5-10k I would be set for years.

[mkabi]

On 1/11/2017 at 11:23 AM, wolf33d said:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/red-just-dethroned-sony-a7rii-dxomark/

The new APSC 35mpx Red sensor beats everything in the world of stills camera. Higher dynamic range than D810 (15.2 stops!!!!) and incredible tonal range and high ISO

I do not understand how an APSC sensor like this can get that much DR and high ISO capability VS lets say a D810 sensor. Are RED sensor that much more advanced? Why dont we have APSC sensors with 15.2 of DR in stills camera? Or at leas in FF sensors. I dont get it.

If RED can do this why not Canon Sony Nikon or anyone else. 

I want a 35mpx FF sensor with those performance in DR and high ISO in a Canon mirrorless body compatible with Canon lenses with IBIS, 4K60p, FHD240p, Canon DPAF,  H265 150mbps codec + prores option, 10 bit. for 3000$. 

This will come in about 3 years. But damn... It exists today so why not

You don't get it?

See you are cherry picking and want everything to be done without consequences.

You want this, but don't want that... what are you between the age of 2 and 5 years old?

See the price of RED cameras? I better get something better than a D810 if I am paying $30K for a camera, is what you should be saying.

Have you seen a RED camera? Its a friggin brick with huge heat sinks.... again... if its designed like that and costs $30K... it better be better than a D810. Forget DXOMark scores... if I'm paying for a Arri or a RED, or even a Hasselblad/Mamiya/PhaseOne/Leica.... it better destroy and mash up Canon, Nikon or Sony to the point that they don't even exist in my realm of existence.

If I'm paying $30K for a single camera it better be covered in diamonds and gold - simply for better resale value.

[wolf33d]

2 hours ago, mkabi said:

You don't get it?

See you are cherry picking and want everything to be done without consequences.

You want this, but don't want that... what are you between the age of 2 and 5 years old?

See the price of RED cameras? I better get something better than a D810 if I am paying $30K for a camera, is what you should be saying.

Have you seen a RED camera? Its a friggin brick with huge heat sinks.... again... if its designed like that and costs $30K... it better be better than a D810. Forget DXOMark scores... if I'm paying for a Arri or a RED, or even a Hasselblad/Mamiya/PhaseOne/Leica.... it better destroy and mash up Canon, Nikon or Sony to the point that they don't even exist in my realm of existence.

If I'm paying $30K for a single camera it better be covered in diamonds and gold - simply for better resale value.

No, you do not get it. That's how it works. You pay 30K for it, same as you needed to pay 30k not long ago to get 4K60p and 10 bit that you now have in a 2k GH5. And it will soon be in a 3K camera... 3 years as I said. 

What I do not get is just the sensor part. It does not change anything to pay 30K or not, a CMOS sensor is a CMOS sensor, a piece of the same material. So yes, I am impress their sensor is better than Sony (which sensor is better than Canon, and it does not make canon cheap cameras...) 

And I am not between 2 and 5 years old, thanks, asshole. 

[fuzzynormal]

On 1/11/2017 at 2:09 PM, Don Kotlos said:

Arguing that Japanese are not innovative, thats a first. 

Well, it took them awhile, but they seemed to have caught on okay in the 19th century.  Got a little crazy in the middle of the 20th, but they weren't alone.  

[jonpais]

And I want to see more aerospace technology in Ghana, more particle accelerator research in Namibia, more artificial intelligence laboratories in New Zealand. And the Germans - why do they keep producing those clinically oversharp computer designed multi-coated, multi-element lenses, and can't anybody make a medium format 4K camera for under $3,000? 

[webrunner5]

What pisses me off on high end cameras is the damn money they charge for add on's, grips, storage, LCD's you name it. Hell they could give you the body and you still can't afford the other parts LoL. I know Red, Arri are small company's, but still they out date the one you buy in 6 months. Black Magic is a little better, and for a new company, i think only three years producing cameras, they are a force to be reckoned with down the road.

[jonpais]

We can build pipelines, walls and prisons, why can't we build a camera?

[agachart]

On 11/1/2560 at 11:23 PM, wolf33d said:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/red-just-dethroned-sony-a7rii-dxomark/

The new APSC 35mpx Red sensor beats everything in the world of stills camera. Higher dynamic range than D810 (15.2 stops!!!!) and incredible tonal range and high ISO

I do not understand how an APSC sensor like this can get that much DR and high ISO capability VS lets say a D810 sensor. Are RED sensor that much more advanced? Why dont we have APSC sensors with 15.2 of DR in stills camera? Or at leas in FF sensors. I dont get it.

If RED can do this why not Canon Sony Nikon or anyone else. 

I want a 35mpx FF sensor with those performance in DR and high ISO in a Canon mirrorless body compatible with Canon lenses with IBIS, 4K60p, FHD240p, Canon DPAF,  H265 150mbps codec + prores option, 10 bit. for 3000$. 

This will come in about 3 years. But damn... It exists today so why not

it is simply decide,this sensor made with new tech design,material and anything that we don't know.

why s35 beat FF/MF sensor?
 

advance-cmos beat garbage cmos,i do not surprise.

where you come from ? your country do not know the science!!! 

[Phil A]

8 hours ago, wolf33d said:

No, you do not get it. That's how it works. You pay 30K for it, same as you needed to pay 30k not long ago to get 4K60p and 10 bit that you now have in a 2k GH5. And it will soon be in a 3K camera... 3 years as I said. 

What I do not get is just the sensor part. It does not change anything to pay 30K or not, a CMOS sensor is a CMOS sensor, a piece of the same material. So yes, I am impress their sensor is better than Sony (which sensor is better than Canon, and it does not make canon cheap cameras...) 

And I am not between 2 and 5 years old, thanks, asshole. 

I don't think you consider how industrial development for these kind of products works as a whole investment. It doesn't matter if the material for the sensor is the same as the Sony one or Canon one. Companies have expenses for research and development, prototyping, etc. which is all humongously expensive, then you will often face manufacturing issues in the first time with the result of discarding whole batches or (worse) to recall the first products for replacement or fixing. You have to factor in that many research projects might also plain fail, the investment being a complete write off, so these will have to be compensated by the successful products, too.

As a result, new technology that is cutting edge will always be crazy priced to recover the cost asap and allow you to innovate further before competition can catch up to your level. Will it be commodity priced in 3 to 5 years? You bet, but by then the investment for that product generation or technology is paid off and you made profit on top (or you filed for bankruptcy) and you already work on the next big thing.

Alternatively, companies cross subsidies. Don't you see how many companies don't rely on that camera business (poor Nikon though) but actually make not too impressive financial figures that are mainly sustainable due to cross subsidizing within these huge corporations (Sony makes everything, Panasonic is in many field, Olympus is strong in medical equipment, etc.).

The same happens in many field, not just cameras. Look at how life science companies have to price their drugs with a huge profit so they can recover cost before the patent protection runs out and other companies can produce and sell generica of the drug for a fraction of the price with none of the research efforts.

But yes... I want better tech, too. Maybe I should get frozen and be thawed on 20 years? Sometimes I feel development goes in completely wrong directions with cameras but that's maybe because I look at my needs/wants and not at the manufacturers' market research data.

[Marco Tecno]

On 11/1/2017 at 0:12 AM, wolf33d said:

There is a big difference between Made in and Designed in. I was speaking about designed in. The made in just change the price but it does not change what the camera is (specs, innovations...) 

We lack of a Tesla-like competitor in the camera industry. People who truly innovate instead of spending their time thinking how to best cripple their product to protect their cine line. 

Actually Samsung was almost there with nx1 (out in nov 2014), but most ppl were not enough open minded to understand that (both inside samsung and among customers).