Suitable Micophones to large indoor spaces

[mattpitts74]

Hi, 

I would be grateful for some advice from more experienced sound people.  I have had to record some dialogue in a sports gym, which a large room with lots of hard surfaces.  There are no real options to change the room in any way. so I'm trying to work out how to get the best audio? 

I have already tried using a Lav and shotgun mic and both have still ended up with echo.  So I was wondering if there is a more suitable mic for these kinds of situations?

I have read that some people seem to suggest using cardioid mics.

Any advice which me much appreciated.  

[sondreg]

I'm guessing you want to make the audio as dry as possible?

The only thing you can do is to add dampening as much as you can and get closer to the audio source...

in pic: Red is direct audio, blue is reverb.

Cardioid would help a ton as it won't capture as much of the reverberation coming from behind the mic.

 

Another option is obviously to do ADR (replace audio in post) and add reverb to taste later.

[mattpitts74]

Thanks @sondreg yes I that's correct,

Any suggestions for a suitable Cardioid mic for this kind of situation?

Some people seem to suggest the Rode NT5 as its quite budget friendly.  

[jcs]

The Schoeps CMC641 is one of the top indoor microphones if you want the best. The Audix SCX1-HC performs very similarly and is a great deal (we use both and they match well). Curtis Judd doesn't recommend the NT5 for indoor dialog (you can hear the NT5, Audix, and a few others tested here).

[Kisaha]

You don't need a cardiod, but a different, more directional version, some of them already mentioned by jcs. The Sennheiser MKH-50 is excellent, but as you seem to search for a very low budget solution, I could suggest something like this, http://www.oktava-shop.com/Small-and-medium-diaphragm-condenser-mics/Oktava-MK-012-01-movie.html or this http://www.oktava-shop.com/Small-and-medium-diaphragm-condenser-mics/Oktava-MK-012-02.html if you need the extra capsules (or you know what they do).

It is a bit tricky though, and if you want to move this mic, you would need the best protection from air, best shock mount system, and on top of that extra-super-special-ninja boom op ability, which is very difficult to find (or achieve) these low budgeted production days. If you have it stable on a stand, it will be just fine.

The Audix seems like the best of both worlds.

[Stanley]

I work in an enviroment where echo is huge, if the Gym has a crowd it shouldn't be as bad. So unless the echo is intolerable, just use it as atmosphere. As some soundies have said, "if the audience is listening to the echo, we've missed the point with our dialogue"

[Kisaha]

@Stanley this is a completely false statement! I wouldn't start like this any sound education, It is completely wrong! Who are these "soundies"?This is like a script writer's line, not a "soundies"! Actually, for a slight reverberation issue that I couldn't avoid (they gave me no other option) I had recently a cable channel's producer call me and complain.

@mattpitts74 Actually, one of the best "investments" for anyone care about sound are special blankets that can used accordingly to cut reflections, and are quite cheap most of the times, 

or even better, hire a sound man with the appropriate equipment, if you get 500 pounds for the job, give the 100 to a young soundman, if you get 600, give him 150, or whatever, you will be faster, more efficient, have someone to help with other things as well, talk, learn, socialize, networking etc

 

 

[Stanley]

41 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

@Stanley this is a completely false statement! I wouldn't start like this any sound education, It is completely wrong! Who are these "soundies"?This is like a script writer's line, not a "soundies"! Actually, for a slight reverberation issue that I couldn't avoid (they gave me no other option) I had recently a cable channel's producer call me and complain.

@mattpitts74 Actually, one of the best "investments" for anyone care about sound are special blankets that can used accordingly to cut reflections, and are quite cheap most of the times, 

or even better, hire a sound man with the appropriate equipment, if you get 500 pounds for the job, give the 100 to a young soundman, if you get 600, give him 150, or whatever, you will be faster, more efficient, have someone to help with other things as well, talk, learn, socialize, networking etc

 

 

Sorry I didn't realise he had a budget that would include a sound man, or have staging equipment such as T stands to hang blacks or blankets from.

We work in huge arenas that have echo, delay from PA's, sometimes foldback for the talent, delay RF for cameras and mics, and of course loud noise from the crowd, and the soundies I work with handle all of this with the greatest of ease. If anyone complains we remind them of how much it will cost to overcome it. And we do it live to screen.

[Kisaha]

@Stanley I was trying not to be offensive (as I wasn't, and I am not), sorry if I sounded(sic) strict, but I am a pro sound man since 1999, have done a few things, and I know that things are not working like this in the industry. I gave you a recent example, and I believe that you gave  a very bad advice that won't make anyone a better person (technician, artist, etc).

It is pretty obvious you are not aware of sound issues, better leave it to someone that can help, or give us the answer of the sound men you work with.

1) What is your job in these huge arenas?

2) The sound equipment on these arenas can cost to the millions (depending how huge, how many mics, what sport etc have you seen the NBA finals coverage?)

3) How many people belong to the sound department?

4) Either believe it or not, live TV is more forgiving than short films, and obviously feature films. In live TV, you need optimal quality of,course, always, but the most important thing is to accomplish the objectives. That depends on what kind of production is this. Live TV come and go, usually no one re-watches back to criticize reverb mistakes and a small flu-net difference, etc, a video that someone creates for a web site, can earn 200$, and be played, viewed and criticized multiple times, with play-pause capabilities and the such.

5) the sport casters, I am sure you have noticed, are wearing special microphones, that are a couple centimeters (or millimeters in cases) in front of their mouths. http://www.sportscasterlife.com/pick-your-pipebomb-stick-vs-headset-mics/ yes, they used to have stick mics, and some still are.

6) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsUTEIqoFOo

7) how's that for a "huge arena" head set? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1132522-REG/schoeps_hsc_4vxp_hsc_4xp_integrated_headset.html

 

I need a lot of paragraphs to describe what you need to cover big sport events, while I have already sufficiently proposed 1) an appropriate microphone that costs around 200$(with a stand), and a couple of blankets, they can be hanged for whatever, and can be moving blankets as well, or blankets you sleep at night, certainly something is better than nothing, and exactly this, nothing, is what you suggested! 2) a young professional sound man, with equipment of a few thousand dollars, could do a special price of 100pounds, if it was a 3 hours job (mandy and other sites offer this services in UK), or 150 if he had to travel from the next town etc, and I mentioned more than 4 reasons to have someone to shoot with. A lot of people mistaken the moving image with the still image; a photographer can, and probably works alone, motion pictures are a TEAM job.

Doing absolutely nothing, and tell some story that doesn't make any sense, isn't a better option in my opinion. 

This is for sound blankets if anyone cares. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzyEaVYCk3s

 

[Stanley]

Mate I've worked in the industry for 30 years, so any cheap shots these days is like water of a ducks back. Personally I think you can over advise people some times, and so I would say to Matt, think like a news cameraperson in this instance, and if you can't beat the echo, use it as atmosphere unless it's intolerable. Create an establishing shot so the minds eye accepts the location, and the echo will make sense. And live to air is not in my opinion any easier than short films, no take 2,3, or 4, no post, etc, etc, feature films I haven't worked on, but they would employ the best of the best I imagine, and the wages would be big. But I'll leave it at that because this advice is getting bigger that Ben Hur.

 

[Kisaha]

Live TV is very difficult, because it is live, you can not do it again, nor edit it on post. I used to do shows and stuff, and it was very stressful having to mic everyone, and whatnot (and whatever anyone is doing live, cable people, journalists, cameramen, control room, etc).

I didn't in any way tried to de-value your job or any job whatsoever (and not only in this field),

I said that you are not paying attention to details on live shows, something really bad has to occur to create problems (and it has from time to time), other form of moving images have different challenges.

Live TV and reportage (news coverage) is very different than other video projects, and on the other side of cinema (short/feature films), where there (even though you can edit, and do it again) everything is REALLY strict, and mistakes are not permitted, while on live you can say "well, what should I do about the failed monitor speaker, it wasn't my fault"(true story, no one blamed me, just happened).

I am also doing a lot of music documentaries, and  today I was working on a documentary about a Carnival that happens in a very specific and special area in my city; 3 5D mark 3 cameras and one had a Zeiss 19mm. There were 8 people with drums, playing traditional Balkan music (with a twist!), and a few flutes and bag pipes (even more difficult, because the wind instruments were completely lost) while there were 3-5 circles of people dancing around them. This is a sound nightmare, and live..

I sensed that Matt was somewhere in between, he wanted to do something cheap, but better than a reportage (and usually on those, people are holding huge dynamic microphones up their noses!) and I responded accordingly.

It is a forum that everyone is trying to offer whatever they can, and help each other, and sound is my speciality; you do not see me replying on color correction posts!

I also used to do cinema classes in kids and teenagers for a while after finished University, so maybe I sound a bit teacher-y! Kids loved me though, once voted best teacher on a summer camp!

I hope we helped a bit.

[mattpitts74]

Hi Guys,  thanks very much for your input and suggestions, my career in video production is very much in its early stages, but I'm very aware the poor audio can make a big difference to the overall quality of something.  I have sent quite a lot of time watching and learning how to remove echo, which is useful, but still not as good as having better audio in the firest place, so I would rather try and capture the best audio I can in the first place. The mic I was using is a  Sennheiser ME66.

@Stanley  Your right about over advice, especally when your starting out and trying to do everything yourself.  I think thats the trouble with the internet sometimes so many views!  and I'm sure people will appreciate the footage was shoot in a gym, so some echo is to be expected, but I still want to try and reduce it as much as possible. 

@Kisaha Thanks for your input too, I am always trying to improve the production value of what i do and learning from my mistakes all the time, which is good. But realising how much time it can take to improve bad audio and still end up with something which isn't that grea, t I would rather invest in better equipment and technique which should pay off in the long run.  But I'm sure as with everyone money is still and issue.  But it sounds like investing money in a good quailty mic would save lots of time in post production, but I have to be realistic as I don;t have 1000's to spend, but I can see the logic in higher quailty.  The sound blankets also sound like a good idea too.  Its just figuring out using all this stuff together.  

 

18 hours ago, jcs said:

The Schoeps CMC641 is one of the top indoor microphones if you want the best. The Audix SCX1-HC performs very similarly and is a great deal (we use both and they match well). Curtis Judd doesn't recommend the NT5 for indoor dialog (you can hear the NT5, Audix, and a few others tested here).

Thanks for these suggestions, Realistically the Audix is the one within my price range and I assume it is similar to the Audio Technica AT4053b, I have watched many of Curtis's videos and seem to rate the Audio Technica, I guess I just want to be sure that one of these mics would make a big enough difference in these situations to be worth investing in over the shotgun mic, but it sounds like it properly will. 

[Don Kotlos]

Of course nothing beats using a very good mic for the job and trying to remove the noise before capture, but sometimes that is just not possible and "using" the background as Stanley suggested can be very effective in driving the focus away from the noise by expectation. 

Have you tried the noise filters from Adobe audition (instructions here). Sometimes they can give OKish results. 

[mattpitts74]

14 hours ago, Don Kotlos said:

Of course nothing beats using a very good mic for the job and trying to remove the noise before capture, but sometimes that is just not possible and "using" the background as Stanley suggested can be very effective in driving the focus away from the noise by expectation. 

Have you tried the noise filters from Adobe audition (instructions here). Sometimes they can give OKish results. 

thanks for the link, yes i have tried the dereverb and managed to improve the audio enough to use this time, cheers

[joema]

On 1/15/2017 at 5:20 AM, mattpitts74 said:

Hi, 

...had to record some dialogue in a sports gym, which a large room with lots of hard surfaces.  There are no real options to change the room in any way...I have already tried using a Lav and shotgun mic and both have still ended up with echo.  So I was wondering if there is a more suitable mic for these kinds of situations?...

Was the ME66 shotgun mic boom operated or camera mounted? If camera mounted it may not help much since the main advantage of a shotgun mic is pointing the broad side toward unwanted sound. It is not like an "audio telescope".

If this is an interview, you may need to frame it tighter to get the mic closer. If it is simply voiceover dialog, you can get the mic as close as necessary. If this is a scripted narrative involving subject/actor movement, then you may need the mic further away which could be pretty hard. 

A high-quality lav like a Sennheiser G3 if place well usually does pretty good. Sennheiser also makes a cardioid mic for the G3 lavs called the ME-4N. This may have some advantages over the stock omni-pattern mic if placed correctly: http://a.co/dbDpkE4

If a boom operated shotgun, you have many options about placement. In a large "echoey" sports gym if you place the mic low and angled upward the speaker, it may pick up sounds bouncing off the reflective ceiling above him. OTOH if you place the mic above him and pointed down it might block some of that out. 

You said you have no real options to change the room, but simply letting the subject stand on a sound blanket (or even a small carpet) and aiming the shotgun mic down might help. That way the blanket attenuates reflections from the floor and the mic null pattern attenuates sound reflected from the ceiling and walls.

Monitoring the audio with good headphones and testing various mic angles and positions at the specific venue and position -- before shooting -- can help. If possible it's best to have a dedicated sound person.

[mattpitts74]

2 hours ago, joema said:

Was the ME66 shotgun mic boom operated or camera mounted? If camera mounted it may not help much since the main advantage of a shotgun mic is pointing the broad side toward unwanted sound. It is not like an "audio telescope".

If this is an interview, you may need to frame it tighter to get the mic closer. If it is simply voiceover dialog, you can get the mic as close as necessary. If this is a scripted narrative involving subject/actor movement, then you may need the mic further away which could be pretty hard. 

A high-quality lav like a Sennheiser G3 if place well usually does pretty good. Sennheiser also makes a cardioid mic for the G3 lavs called the ME-4N. This may have some advantages over the stock omni-pattern mic if placed correctly: http://a.co/dbDpkE4

If a boom operated shotgun, you have many options about placement. In a large "echoey" sports gym if you place the mic low and angled upward the speaker, it may pick up sounds bouncing off the reflective ceiling above him. OTOH if you place the mic above him and pointed down it might block some of that out. 

You said you have no real options to change the room, but simply letting the subject stand on a sound blanket (or even a small carpet) and aiming the shotgun mic down might help. That way the blanket attenuates reflections from the floor and the mic null pattern attenuates sound reflected from the ceiling and walls.

Monitoring the audio with good headphones and testing various mic angles and positions at the specific venue and position -- before shooting -- can help. If possible it's best to have a dedicated sound person.

@joema Thank you, this is very useful, the ME66 was off the camera on a mic stand as close as I could get it without being in the frame, but it was pointing up towards the ceiling, so I imagine thats where much of the echo came from.  It sounds like a hyercardiod mic boomed from above and a sound blanket on the floor would help reduce the echo a fair amount? Is it possible to get reasonably priced sound blankets? 

[joema]

2 hours ago, mattpitts74 said:

...the ME66 was off the camera on a mic stand as close as I could get it without being in the frame, but it was pointing up towards the ceiling, so I imagine thats where much of the echo came from.  It sounds like a hyercardiod mic boomed from above and a sound blanket on the floor would help reduce the echo a fair amount? Is it possible to get reasonably priced sound blankets? 

Yes it's possible the upward orientation picked up reflected sound from above and behind the subject.  Similar things can happen in outdoor settings if wind starts blowing through trees behind the subject.  The main pickup lobe of the mic doesn't just go deaf when it reaches the subject but will pick up anything behind him. 

With shotguns it's important to point the null (ie broadside) toward the unwanted sound, don't just point the mic toward the subject. Think in terms of what you *don't* want to hear and point the mic broadside in that direction. Some mics also have a rear pickup lobe so you also need to be aware of that. It is hard to shoot the video while simultaneously having sound-isolating headphones on and assessing audio. This is why a dedicated sound person is good idea, if possible. 

Purpose-made sound blankets are not that expensive but if you compare to the cost of blowing the entire shoot due to poor audio or the cost of spending hours with iZotope RX5 trying to fix it, they are downright cheap.

[IronFilm]

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 0:29 PM, Kisaha said:

You don't need a cardiod, but a different, more directional version, some of them already mentioned by jcs. The Sennheiser MKH-50 is excellent...

....from what he is saying, I think he should also check out the MKH-40, he might even prefer that over the 50 for his needs. 

[IronFilm]

 

ohhhh.....  reading further I see you already have a ME66, & you're rather budget constrained. Thus I think you should get yourself a ME64!! It is almost a no brainer decision. I picked up a ME64 capsule for only $99 on eBay last night! & they're only $150 to buy brand new.

[Stanley]

@mattpitts74....This is the mic we use for interviews in all sorts of noisy inviroments, ranging from changing rooms to vox pops on the street, and in-crowd pieces with the public in their seats in large stadiums. The horse may have bolted concerning your purchase, but I can gurantee you that this mic is an exceptional performer, near bullet proof, and if you shop around it can be had for about $100 AUD. The one caveat though is you need to develope a good technique with regards to throwing the mic, a lot of reporters and good eng camera operators use this mic in my part of the world.

Cheers.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/904403-REG/Rode_Reporter_Omnidirectional_Interview_Mic.html