S-Log vs. S-Log2 vs. S-Log3

[Riadnasla]

Hello!

I've been looking around google, youtube, and vimeo, but haven't found answers to my specific situation. 

I'm operating a Sony PMW-F3 with the S-Log upgrade. Through experimentation, I've found that it does not play nicely with S-Log2/3 LUTs, and searching around, I can't seem to find any specifically for S-Log(1), nor any manner of translating 2/3 LUTs for 1. Do you have any resources you know that I can look into using a LOG to Rec.709 to do simple utility-grades for dailies, etc? Or am I better off spending hours developing my own LUTs? 

Thanks!

 

[Justin Bacle]

If you use Resolve, you may wanna try to convert your F3 Slog footage to ACES and then you can convert to whatever you want. (Not sure there is a specific F3->ACES profile but I can check if you want when I get home)

[Evgeniy]

On 1/21/2017 at 2:52 PM, Riadnasla said:

Hello!

I've been looking around google, youtube, and vimeo, but haven't found answers to my specific situation. 

I'm operating a Sony PMW-F3 with the S-Log upgrade. Through experimentation, I've found that it does not play nicely with S-Log2/3 LUTs, and searching around, I can't seem to find any specifically for S-Log(1), nor any manner of translating 2/3 LUTs for 1. Do you have any resources you know that I can look into using a LOG to Rec.709 to do simple utility-grades for dailies, etc? Or am I better off spending hours developing my own LUTs? 

Thanks!

 

This should help you with creating your own LUTs:

https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/

 

You can also create transformation LUTs from Slog to Slog2 or 3 if you prefer, but I don't think it's necessary. I would suggest to transform your color space from original S-Gamut to S-Gamut 3.cine and then do a REC709 conversion, because original S-Gamut has a pretty bad color.

 

1 hour ago, Justin Bacle said:

If you use Resolve, you may wanna try to convert your F3 Slog footage to ACES and then you can convert to whatever you want. (Not sure there is a specific F3->ACES profile but I can check if you want when I get home)

It's funny when people suggest to work in ACES without knowing what ACES actually is.

   

[dhessel]

All of the s-log variants have different gamma curves and different color gamuts, using a lut not designed for the specific one you are using it will not work properly. I own an F35 which has the same slog as the F3 if I am not mistaken. I have found that ACES is by far the best option, I have included a link that goes through the process of grading slog material in Resolve using ACES.

 

http://www.filmscientist.com/blog/2015/01/29/film-scientist-aces-workflow-revisited/

[Evgeniy]

8 minutes ago, dhessel said:

All of the s-log variants have different gamma curves and different color gamuts, using a lut not designed for the specific one you are using it will not work properly. I own an F35 which has the same slog as the F3 if I am not mistaken. I have found that ACES is by far the best option, I have included a link that goes through the process of grading slog material in Resolve using ACES.

 

http://www.filmscientist.com/blog/2015/01/29/film-scientist-aces-workflow-revisited/

You have no benefits in working in ACES nor you can't monitor it to see any difference. Why are you working in ACES?

[dhessel]

There are plenty of benifits to working with ACES one of them being that you can keep the full color gamut of sgamut which is much larger than Rec709. Once in ACES you can monitor and export to what ever final colorspace you want, Rec709, P3, Rec2020... Besides that the main reason why I do is that it is the best most neutral conversion I have found for transforming slog to Rec709. Everything else I have ever used either adds too much contrast, messes up the colors or is a look lut that I don't always want to use.

Lastly I don't know why you are assuming that I have no benifit for choosing to use ACES in the first place.

[Evgeniy]

1 minute ago, dhessel said:

There are plenty of benifits to working with ACES one of them being that you can keep the full color gamut of sgamut which is much larger than Rec709. Once in ACES you can monitor and export to what ever final colorspace you want, Rec709, P3, Rec2020... Besides that the main reason why I do is that it is the best most neutral conversion I have found for transforming slog to Rec709. Everything else I have ever used either adds too much contrast, messes up the colors or is a look lut that I don't always want to use.

Lastly I don't know why you are assuming that I have no benifit for choosing to use ACES in the first place.

You cannot monitor ACES because your screen is set to sRGB or REC709 and you also deliver it to REC709 screens. What's the point of having a wider color gamut if you cannot see it?

You can adjust your footage with contrast and saturation sliders without using LUTs to avoid too contrast problems.

ACES was created to be used in different departments to avoid color shifts when you go from edit to vfx and back. Using ACES in a single system workflow and web delivery doesn't make any sense.   

 

 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

I had a similar issue, and got a lot of help from this thread: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?323095-Sony-F3-Resurrection-The-New-Chapter

My results grading with this new workflow have been consistently natural and pleasing.

[Justin Bacle]

3 hours ago, Evgeniy said:

It's funny when people suggest to work in ACES without knowing what ACES actually is.

Sorry, I just began working with it, I don't know eveything about it (yet)

[dhessel]

2 hours ago, Evgeniy said:

You cannot monitor ACES because your screen is set to sRGB or REC709 and you also deliver it to REC709 screens. What's the point of having a wider color gamut if you cannot see it?

You can adjust your footage with contrast and saturation sliders without using LUTs to avoid too contrast problems.

ACES was created to be used in different departments to avoid color shifts when you go from edit to vfx and back. Using ACES in a single system workflow and web delivery doesn't make any sense.   

 

 

Again you are making a lot of assumptions. True at this point you cannot monitor with ACES, it was never designed to anyway, but by going to ACES and keeping the full gamut you can have access to that wider gamut if you were to ever want to go to P3 or another wider gamut format than Rec709. There are colorspaces beyond Rec709.

Of course I can adjust the contrast and what ever else but I still prefer to start with a neutral grade and you cannot properly grade slog/sgamut material with out a lut or at least a proper color transform matrix to bring the colors to Rec709 ranges or you can get nasty color shifts. Slog/sgamut is not desaturated the colors are in a different space and just adding saturation is one of the reasons why people get ugly color shifts in skin tones. 

What makes you think I am working in a single system workflow for web delievery anyway, and who are you to say what makes sense for someone else? If you don't like ACES and choose not to use it then don't but I am going to continue to use it because it is a better fit for my workflow.

[Evgeniy]

1 hour ago, dhessel said:

Of course I can adjust the contrast and what ever else but I still prefer to start with a neutral grade and you cannot properly grade slog/sgamut material with out a lut or at least a proper color transform matrix to bring the colors to Rec709 ranges or you can get nasty color shifts. Slog/sgamut is not desaturated the colors are in a different space and just adding saturation is one of the reasons why people get ugly color shifts in skin tones. 

What makes you think I am working in a single system workflow for web delievery anyway, and who are you to say what makes sense for someone else? If you don't like ACES and choose not to use it then don't but I am going to continue to use it because it is a better fit for my workflow.

You can do and use whatever you want but don't say that something is better when you fail to describe why it's better.

There are definitely a lot of benefits in working in ACES but only in certain workflow. Working in ACES just because it's wider color space does not make any sense.

[dhessel]

I clearly said that in my opinion ACES gives the best conversion from slog to Rec709, which is the main reason I use it and the topic of this thread.

 

[Riadnasla]

Wow....thanks for the overwhelming response! Imma take the next few days to finish the assigned reading.

[Amook]

I'm using the "slog to cineon" from MacGregor, found here http://www.hingsberg.com/index.php/2014/05/sony-f3-resurrected-luts/ then apply the arri Alexa cLog to Rec709 lut in DaVinci Resolve with good results. I'm not very experience with color grading but for me it's producing pleasing results. Here's a quick upload of some random f3 footage that I applied the lut's too. I think I could have easily upped the contrast and saturation, but I was more interested in how it looked on my TV instead of the computer which seems to be much lower contrast. 

 

[Amook]

Opps Looks like the dvxuser thread was already posted.  Sorry about that.

[sam]

On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Evgeniy said:

.....because original S-Gamut has a pretty bad color.

.....It's funny when people suggest to work in ACES without knowing what ACES actually is.

   

 

On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Evgeniy said:

 don't say that something is better when you fail to describe why it's better.

 

You sure came out swinging:-)  So follow your own advice and explain why your method is better for the op and what qualifies you.     Also whats your grading/viewing setup?

Op might like this http://liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-correct-way-of-normalizing-sgamut.8189/