The Nikon DL Cameras are Cancelled

[tugela]

21 hours ago, Kisaha said:

 

The DL series didn't seem very competitive as it was, they need a better (more retro-modern design as well) compact line, better make it full frame, and they have to up their video game. Newer generations need exceptional video on a compact camera, and when I say newer gen, I mean everyone under 50!

 

The problem with the DL series was that there were already well established cameras dominating that niche, with excellent optics, superior sensors and superior processors. There was never any real chance that they were going to compete effectively, the Sony equivalents just too much market presence. Nikon were always going to be a day late and a dollar short. The delays just sealed the coffin, that is all.

17 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Canons mirrorless is imho so underrated its almost not funny. The pictures I get from the original and super cheap EOS M + 22mm are just lovley. With ML its a great street shooter/pocket camera.

Its gm1 size with APS-C and a 35mm equivalent and 19mp. Panasony cant touch that. Samsung almost could, but we know how that went.

The M3 was also very capable and the M5 seems very legit according to some reviewers who's opinions I trust. Again, talking about stills.

No 4K but I could care less about that in a stills camera, image is king for me, not resolution.

It is because they are crap. Their mirrorless offerings have always been underwhelming, the only reason they sell them is because they are cheap in the bargain bin when they get there.

14 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Kodak went out of business.

Big name!

That is because they manufactured a dead technology.

[Marco Tecno]

Nikon should partner with Samsung and build a killer mirrorless, video oriented camera, to fight gh5 but with an apsc sensor.

[gethin]

nikon are so cloistered I cant imagine them partnering with anyone.  DJI would also make an interesting partner. I cant imagine it will be that long till DJI could buy Nikons camera division with spare change.

[Dean]

Very sad/disappointing and kind of serves themselves right for being so ... well ... Japanese in their conservatism and indecisiveness. 

They need a big shake up ... a western CEO and new blood.

[Mattias Burling]

4 hours ago, tugela said:

 

It is because they are crap. 

You didn't even read the post you quoted or you didn't try to understand it. Take your pick.

4 hours ago, tugela said:

That is because they manufactured a dead technology.

The best selling cameras currently are film cameras. But that debate has no place in this thread. Please try not to make this one of your recurring rants and bashings of things you for one reason or another dont like. 

[leeys]

20 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

The m4/3 might be doing ok but its still nothing compared to Canon. And Fuji is eating away at their fan base every day. 

But I do think Panasonic is in more trouble than Olympus. I don't know any Panasonic still shooters. And that's where the real money still is, not in video.

But there is currently way to many options compared to people buying cameras. 

Someone's gotta go.

I'm a Panasonic stills shooter!

5 hours ago, tugela said:

The problem with the DL series was that there were already well established cameras dominating that niche, with excellent optics, superior sensors and superior processors. There was never any real chance that they were going to compete effectively, the Sony equivalents just too much market presence. Nikon were always going to be a day late and a dollar short. The delays just sealed the coffin, that is all.

That's not completely true; the 18-50 is unique product with no competition (I was saving up money to get it), and the 24-500 lens coupled with the Nikon 1 AF's system could be something special. If you've never used the Nikon 1 you won't really know how good it is - it's still the only mirrorless system that is on par with a pro DSLR in terms of speed. Not even the A6300 can come close to that. (Disclaimer: I haven't tried the A6500 and E-M1 II yet)

Plus I've always liked base Nikon colour profiles. Wish I could get the same from my Panasonic when I want to do something quick.

3 hours ago, gethin said:

nikon are so cloistered I cant imagine them partnering with anyone.  DJI would also make an interesting partner. I cant imagine it will be that long till DJI could buy Nikons camera division with spare change.

 

2 hours ago, Dean said:

Very sad/disappointing and kind of serves themselves right for being so ... well ... Japanese in their conservatism and indecisiveness. 

They need a big shake up ... a western CEO and new blood.

You two just described how they got into this mess. I now worry about them, as I've never seen them bungle a product launch this bad. Together with news of restructuring and an extraordinary write-down, it doesn't look good.

[sanveer]

Actually when I read this across various sites, I realized, that there may be many reasons for this:
1. Nikon isn't really stellar at video, and the 1" camera market does have an interesting emphasis on video.
2. Sony is literally monopolizing the newer 1" sensors, and using them for its newer RX100 models. Everyone else gets a generation or 2 older version, of the 1" sensor. 
3. Panasonic's FZ2500 and the LX15 seem to have captured the Market of two of the Nikon DL models. This apart from Sony's own RX10 iii. 

Nikon announced the 3 cameras exactly 1 year ago, and then their R&D Department sat over them all this while, with almost no noticeable movement on that front (no product reviews, or cameras given to photographers, like the way Sony and Panasonic do for models before launch).
In the meantime Panasonic and Sony were in a race to bring out new 1" sensor models, making the Nikons effectively obsolete. The Nikons would have had a price advantage, but, they spent way to long in the R&D, and that probably jacked up the final costs, thereby completely ruining a very interesting series of camera. 

 

[Mattias Burling]

1 hour ago, leeys said:

I'm a Panasonic stills shooter!

There you go! They live!

I also agree with you that the DL had alot on paper. And I dont believe for a second that the "sensor and processor" has anything to do with sales. Im pretty sure 99 out of 100 that buys a camera doesn't even know they have processors. Let alone if its the latest model or not.

[Dean]

They constantly miss opportunities all the time by being conservative. 

D500 is a classic example and was maybe 4 years late ... people were literally begging Nikon for a D300/s replacement for years and Nikon never delivered. By the time the D500 was announced many were set up in another system. People who didn't even shoot DX felt sorry for the D300 shooters !! Same with many of their lenses. Arrogant & ignorant company.

The last time I remember Nikon being on fire was when the D800/e came out. After that ... nothing.

The D820 & D760 better have everything they can possibly throw at these cameras like excellent 4K and DIS ... not just 3 more focus points and a new way of uploading images wirelessly. 

They need a front man that can put a human face to the company ... like Apple & Fuji do. Someone who can speak directly to the Nikon faithful and at least give the impression that they understand and listen. At the moment they seem very distant and more like an accounting company than an imaging company. Roadmaps ... Nikon don't do roadmaps. 

Nikon is still alive and OK, but there's no doubt they are heading downhill and fast. They are shrinking. I really get the feeling that this is their last chance, but being what they are (insular) they will not be able to do what's needed to turn it all around ... what ever that is. I really think they need some boisterous American to come in and shake up their culture ... take some risks ... listen to consumers.

[leeys]

14 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

There you go! They live!

I also agree with you that the DL had alot on paper. And I dont believe for a second that the "sensor and processor" has anything to do with sales. Im pretty sure 99 out of 100 that buys a camera doesn't even know they have processors. Let alone if its the latest model or not.

Yes, you're right. Like I said, the Nikon 1 (which the DLs are based on) have some strengths, but Nikon never did anything to market its strengths. I mean, look at this:

14 hours ago, sanveer said:

Actually when I read this across various sites, I realized, that there may be many reasons for this:
1. Nikon isn't really stellar at video, and the 1" camera market does have an interesting emphasis on video.
2. Sony is literally monopolizing the newer 1" sensors, and using them for its newer RX100 models. Everyone else gets a generation or 2 older version, of the 1" sensor. 
3. Panasonic's FZ2500 and the LX15 seem to have captured the Market of two of the Nikon DL models. This apart from Sony's own RX10 iii. 

I can tell you straight off, the FZ2500 and RX 10 III will not come close to the operational speed of the DL 24-500 ever. For a big zoom camera this is a great advantage to have, but Nikon just doesn't seem to know how to (or worse, want to) market it, so it leads to people thinking that they're all very similar cameras. They're not. The DL 24-500 had a chance of capturing that segment, along with the 18-50 owning a special place, but Nikon just... well, they're just useless at the moment.

[JurijTurnsek]

16 hours ago, sanveer said:

2. Sony is literally monopolizing the newer 1" sensors, and using them for its newer RX100 models. Everyone else gets a generation or 2 older version, of the 1" sensor.

When I compare RX100 mkI to mkV on the dpreview tool, is see no real IQ progress made in 5 years. Reviews hinted at better shadow lifting for mkIV and 4K was possible with the last year's sensors anyway.

With the know-how from Nikon 1 series, I find it baffling how Nikon was unable to produce a AF speed monster with the DL series. I don't know about the image processing of the 1 series, but in any case, they have years of experience with this sensor size.

[jonpais]

Panasonic is definitely going down if the GH5 doesn't take off, no question about it.

[Kisaha]

Nikon has(had) a whole 1" mirrorless system for crying out loud! Once, before fully committed on Samsung NX (yes, I fully committed on an abandoned system when I realized that it was abandoned, go figure!) I was considering a Nikon 1 camera (probably the water resistant one) and a few lenses for ultra portable/hiking/vacationing camera (I got a small NX and I am fine finally, why to go to 1" when you have almost the same size/weight ration on ASP-C). That system had some serious advantages and some pretty cool little lenses. I do not understand why it took them so long for the DL series.

GH5 is going to sell, a lot, especially this year, and depending what Sony is going to do with their ASP-C series, and A7 mark III, the next year too. Panasonic has a whole chain of 4K things to sell and market, not only cameras, but their best bet, would be a C100 killer with 10 bit 4K/60p, it would seriously sell a lot less, but with a much bigger profit margin (how 5000 euros sound?).

[jonpais]

From everything I've heard, it's Nikon's lithography department that is being axed, that it's a great idea they don't manufacture the DL cameras and no, they are not going anywhere anytime soon.

[Mattias Burling]

Im sure the GH5 will sell well to video shooters. But then they will go down for sure. They need to capture the still shooters. Thats where the money and volume is. 

[jonpais]

Just now, Mattias Burling said:

Im sure the GH5 will sell well to video shooters. But the they will go down for sure. They need to capture the still shooters. Thats where the money and volume is. 

Well said for someone who believes the video movement is dead. 

[Mattias Burling]

28 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Well said for someone who believes the video movement is dead. 

It is imo. But that has nothing to do with sales or gear. Totally different subject for another thread.

[tugela]

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 6:51 AM, Mattias Burling said:

You didn't even read the post you quoted or you didn't try to understand it. Take your pick.

The best selling cameras currently are film cameras. But that debate has no place in this thread. Please try not to make this one of your recurring rants and bashings of things you for one reason or another dont like. 

I read the post and understood it just fine thanks.

The best selling "cameras" are cell phones, and last time I looked they don't shoot with film. Perhaps the ones you use in Sweden do, I don't know. You probably know that better than me, but certainly out here in North America digital cameras overwhelmingly dominate.

By "film" I think you are referring to those polaroid type ultra cheap cameras you can get from places like Amazon which are essentially disposable, Personally I have never seen one or any photo taken by one. Suggesting that those are "best selling" is absurd and you know it.

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 9:25 AM, Mattias Burling said:

There you go! They live!

I also agree with you that the DL had alot on paper. And I dont believe for a second that the "sensor and processor" has anything to do with sales. Im pretty sure 99 out of 100 that buys a camera doesn't even know they have processors. Let alone if its the latest model or not.

The market those particular models were aimed at is dominated by enthusiasts, and they certainly understand the role of the electronics. That is not to say that brand loyalty does not play a part, but it is less pronounced in cameras that are closed systems such as these.

6 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Im sure the GH5 will sell well to video shooters. But then they will go down for sure. They need to capture the still shooters. Thats where the money and volume is. 

The market in that segment is moving towards hybrid cameras however, and in that role the GH5 will be fine. The only serious competition in the long run will come from Sony. Panasonic have the most advanced processors, which means that the computational power (which translates to performance) of their cameras is going to put them at the front of the pack.

The main issue for Panasonic is brand loyalty, and it takes time to erode other manufacturers brand loyalty to increase market share. Eventually, if they stay on the cutting edge, they will win out however. It is just a matter of how long it will take, not if it will happen. The only other major manufacturer with the resources to compete and who understands this is Sony.

[dahlfors]

It's sad to see the boring corporate structure in Japan struggling. I think there's still plenty of good possibilities for making interesting & big new photo/video products for the big consumer categories, even after the success of the smart phone. You just need to approach it from scratch, from the user perspective. Some products integrating better with phones & computers & Internet - and that can bridge the gap between the more advanced cameras and cameras in phones.

Up until now, camera companies have tried to produce consumer cameras with added on app functionality and sync functions. Instead they should start at the question "what great user experiences can we deliver with camera products, that will make users want to have this in addition to their phone and is something that phones aren't likely to compete with?". Nail those products right, and there will be the same bread & butter category that compact cameras used to be.

Unfortunately, I don't think any of the Japanese camera companies are too traditional to be able to readapt to the market like this themselves. Only chance I see of it happening is if there's some other companies doing it that they can acquire...

[Mattias Burling]

2 hours ago, tugela said:

Suggesting that those are "best selling" is absurd and you know it.

So saying that the best selling camera model is the best selling camera is according to you "absurd". And you call a non disposable camera, "disposable"...

Sorry, once again you lost me and I wont discuss any further with you. Its impossible if you constantly insist on making up your own imaginary rules and guidelines. Its getting old to say the least.