Camera advice. Best image, ignore rest. $3000

[IronFilm]

KineMINI 4K "battle tested" (read: refurbished) were going for $3K last year?

I'd undoubtedly go for that in your situation if you can't afford a Kinefinity Terra, & don't care about other stuff such as size.

 

Otherwise you could get a secondhand Sony FS700 (as you're not counting the cost of extra stuff....   such as an external recorder to tap into the FS700 raw).

Other options I'd consider is Sony PMW-F3, BMD Micro Cinema Camera, and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe the URSA Mini 4K. Plus of course the GH5, but wait for it to be selling first for a month or two.

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Ed_David said:

I owned a f3, red one, f35 - 

don't own any of them now.

F3 = lacking in resolution

What do you mean "lacking in resolution"? Or is 1080 not enough is what you mean? 

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 3:41 PM, mercer said:

Yeah, way out of my price range, but maybe in a couple years it can meet me halfway. 

That is kinda my plan.

Get the FS5 once they show up cheap secondhand. I kinda want the 10bit 4K internal of the FS7 however..... but the variable ND and small compact size of the FS5 is tempting. 

 

Or a Kinefinity Terra if they show up "battle tested" in the future. 

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 6:57 PM, HockeyFan12 said:

I hope it's clear that despite using a concrete number, I mean this as a pretty arbitrary statement.

I actually recently wrote a post on reduser strongly defending the F35 and if you've got one I am envious, it's a great camera and I don't mean to attack it. It's the benchmark so far as I'm concerned for "adequate 35mm film replacement" and there are areas where it's still ahead (motion cadence, for one). But there's a lot out there at much lower prices that can compete pretty well with it, hence its precipitous drop in price on the used market. That said, it beats anything on this list for sure for a beautiful organic image and quite good specs too–but by less than I think most people realize. 

Would you mind please linking to your reduser post on the F35? :-)

[IronFilm]

18 hours ago, jpfilmz said:

No...that was an oversight.  I added the GH5 to the top of the list after I finished the post and reread the OP and saw the part about ignoring camera release date.  

 

 

Welllllllll then....  let's just mention some cameras from 2025 then!! GH10 any one? ;-)

[Dogtown]

I do like my F3, ( I have three of them now for multicam shoots ) I find for WEB and TV it has all the resolution I need, the image is wonderful going out to my Odyssey 7Q+ S Log RGB 444, it does have a great film like image when handled well, It is built tough and has so many solid HDSDI connections, just make sure you get the RGB S Log upgrade either installed already, or with the key! If I want to step up to a client that request 4K I bought a Canon C500, I do find 2K to be more than enough for everything I'm shooting these days. Some good information on the old F3 is out there.

F3 in fact has a 3.4-3.6 megapixel sensor. And from further reading it seems engineers find that, while very small pixel pitches bring with them increased noise, once you reach a reasonable size -- 4-6 microns -- the benefits of larger pixel pitches in terms of noise are reduced. Thanks for the comments -- that's exactly the kind of info I was trying to suss out.

Here is the full read:

http://nofilmschool.com/2011/03/sony-f3-times-light-gathering-ability-red

[webrunner5]

19 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Welllllllll then....  let's just mention some cameras from 2025 then!! GH10 any one? ;-)

This ought to make Ironfilm happy! The videos are long gone but the outcome is there on the stills. http://www.provideocoalition.com/f3_vs_af100_vs_5d/

[noone]

20 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Welllllllll then....  let's just mention some cameras from 2025 then!! GH10 any one? ;-)

That new GH10 has sure made M4/3 a much more viable format.

Personally I think it is almost as good at ISO 2,000,000 as last years A7s xxiv!  

[HockeyFan12]

On 2/21/2017 at 5:24 AM, jpfilmz said:

1. GH5
2. 5D3 RAW
3. BMPCC + Speedbooster + IR Cut Filter
4. BM Micro + Speedbooster + IR Cut Filter
5. BMCC + Anti Aliasing Filter + IR Cut Filter
6. C100mk 1
7. Sony a7s/a7s2/a7r2
8. GH4 + Speedbooster
9. 5DMK 4
10. XC10

Also to note: This list is just pure image quality via cameras I've had experience with (EDIT: except for the GH5).  Usability and workflow speed would totally change this list up.  The XC10 captures really good images in good light only. It's 4k is similar to a C300mk2 in well lite situations. The 5DMK4 is pretty good in 4k as well. You just need fast lenses(f/1.2-f/1.8) in low light and a Tokina 11-16 for anything wide.

While I disagree with this list on the whole (pretty strongly, but it's all subjective), I'm glad to hear the GH5 is as good as promised. I wanted to love the GH4 but it wasn't quite there in so many respects... maybe I will have to pick up a GH5 when they come down in price. The slow motion alone and ability to shoot high res plates is exciting to me, but I was worried issues with low light etc. would persist as well as ergonomics and strange crop factor and IQ issues.

How do you find the high ISOs compared with the rest? How is the slow motion quality?

[Riadnasla]

22 hours ago, Dogtown said:

 

I do like my F3, ( I have three of them now for multicam shoots ) I find for WEB and TV it has all the resolution I need, the image is wonderful going out to my Odyssey 7Q+ S Log RGB 444, it does have a great film like image when handled well, It is built tough and has so many solid HDSDI connections, just make sure you get the RGB S Log upgrade either installed already, or with the key! If I want to step up to a client that request 4K I bought a Canon C500, I do find 2K to be more than enough for everything I'm shooting these days. Some good information on the old F3 is out there.

 

100% Agree with this, I run with an F3 (S-log) + Gemini 4:4:4, and they're built like bricks, never had any issues. Often my clients have difficulty re-focusing from "need 4K" to "need awesome image quality", but after the shoot when I start going through the dpx footage, all debates stop. Biggest downside for me: It's a light cinema camera, but it still heavy as a cinema camera compared to stuff like the C100s. I'm usually a one-man band, so that means a lot more work, but if that doesn't bother you, I can't recommend better IQ for the price. In addition, the native FZ mount can adapt to pretty much anything other than E-mount for the price of a cheap adapter. 

 

My reel, shot mostly with available light, with this rig for demonstration: 

 

[mercer]

1 hour ago, Riadnasla said:

100% Agree with this, I run with an F3 (S-log) + Gemini 4:4:4, and they're built like bricks, never had any issues. Often my clients have difficulty re-focusing from "need 4K" to "need awesome image quality", but after the shoot when I start going through the dpx footage, all debates stop. Biggest downside for me: It's a light cinema camera, but it still heavy as a cinema camera compared to stuff like the C100s. I'm usually a one-man band, so that means a lot more work, but if that doesn't bother you, I can't recommend better IQ for the price. In addition, the native FZ mount can adapt to pretty much anything other than E-mount for the price of a cheap adapter. 

 

My reel, shot mostly with available light, with this rig for demonstration: 

 

Beautiful work. 

[Kisaha]

@Riadnasla solid reel, +1 for the wierd, big, goats!

I am been very critical with Sony for their mirrorless line, and the reason is this.

I do not believe they ever delivered such beautiful 1080 fhd, especially when you compare with a newly top APS-C camera like the a6500(a6300), everyone I know shoot 4K with this camera, while deliver 1080p, maybe is it too much to ask?

Even EX-1 is still -somehow- competitive with their smaller sensor.

C100 is the most comfortable camera to use on a difficult all day shooting. I just hope for a great mark III, it can be a camera for the ages!

[Mattias Burling]

On 2017-02-22 at 9:23 AM, IronFilm said:

KineMINI 4K "battle tested" (read: refurbished) were going for $3K last year?

Problem was that they really didn't have any for sale. I signed up for one about a year ago. Never heard from them again.

The whole company seems to struggle quite a bit imo.

[Riadnasla]

@mercer Thanks! This last year had me finally operating on a few more projects, but still so much to learn. 

@Kisaha Thanks, the goats were interesting to film as they love to perch right above a busy highway and kick rocks down into traffic! I actually had a bit of difficulty making them look good in footage, as they were in the shade on grey rock with dirty white coats......separating them was interesting. Also, completely agree about the C100 and am unfortunately having to try and sell my F3 as the bulk and intimidation is simply too much for the projects I have to work on. 

[mercer]

51 minutes ago, Riadnasla said:

@mercer Thanks! This last year had me finally operating on a few more projects, but still so much to learn. 

@Kisaha Thanks, the goats were interesting to film as they love to perch right above a busy highway and kick rocks down into traffic! I actually had a bit of difficulty making them look good in footage, as they were in the shade on grey rock with dirty white coats......separating them was interesting. Also, completely agree about the C100 and am unfortunately having to try and sell my F3 as the bulk and intimidation is simply too much for the projects I have to work on. 

What are you going to replace it with... FS5?

[Riadnasla]

23 minutes ago, mercer said:

What are you going to replace it with... FS5?

I'm actually gunning for a C100MkII, as my workflow before the F3 was entirely Canon-based, and I already own EF glass and am quite familiar with Canon's logic and image, though I wouldn't complain about owning an FS5 either. I'd just need to re-invest in glass.......

[Kisaha]

I am playing the waiting game, a C100markIII must be imminent, is the only non 4K C camera, even they replaced the XC10 with a newer model! 

The important thing is what features they will include to that camera (I just hope for some kind of 120/100 frames) and if the HDMI-out is 10 bit (probably not).

..and the dough.. Whoever has used a C100markII for more than a week, knows what we are talking about.

[Dogtown]

You might be better of keeping your F3, the prices are so low now it could make you cry   besides the Canon C100 II, with the limit to 8 bit out is still nice, but it's not the 10 bit of the F3! I like the locking SDI connectors on the Sony, the C100 HDMI is too weak. The C100 original and C series cameras are lovely cameras, but you have more DR range shooting RGB S Log, with the F3. The Sony F5 would be a nice upgrade path, but it gets bulky when you add on the extras.

  

[Ed_David]

I bought my f3 for $12,000.  Slog upgrade was $3000.  I just sold my last one for $1,500 including tons of batteries and media.  

Out of every piece of gear, cameras depreciate in value probably the fastest.  

[Riadnasla]

7 hours ago, Dogtown said:

You might be better of keeping your F3, the prices are so low now it could make you cry   besides the Canon C100 II, with the limit to 8 bit out is still nice, but it's not the 10 bit of the F3! I like the locking SDI connectors on the Sony, the C100 HDMI is too weak. The C100 original and C series cameras are lovely cameras, but you have more DR range shooting RGB S Log, with the F3. The Sony F5 would be a nice upgrade path, but it gets bulky when you add on the extras.

  

In image quality, I totally agree, and if my work (and hobby) was films with a small crew, you couldn't pry the F3 from me..... Unfortunately my main shtick is glidecam, interview, and adventure style videos. 

Long story short I was convinced away from the recently released C100 and towards the F3 a few years ago while upgrading from DSLR. After realizing of bought a heavier, pro-only camera, I've been trying to afford all the pieces it didn't come with since then. 

The right tool for the job..... Unfortunately the F3 isn't for my needs and I just want to move on to a lighter camera that can fit on my glidecam and fly in the overhead bin easily. 4K....uncompressed..... All nice features I don't mind sacrificing for a solo-friendly camera. 

 

So hey, if you know anyone who needs a complete F3 and Gemini kits with batteries and media, you know who to call!

[IronFilm]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Dogtown said:

I do like my F3, ( I have three of them now for multicam shoots ) I find for WEB and TV it has all the resolution I need, the image is wonderful going out to my Odyssey 7Q+ S Log RGB 444, it does have a great film like image when handled well, It is built tough and has so many solid HDSDI connections, just make sure you get the RGB S Log upgrade either installed already, or with the key! If I want to step up to a client that request 4K I bought a Canon C500, I do find 2K to be more than enough for everything I'm shooting these days. Some good information on the old F3 is out there.

F3 in fact has a 3.4-3.6 megapixel sensor. And from further reading it seems engineers find that, while very small pixel pitches bring with them increased noise, once you reach a reasonable size -- 4-6 microns -- the benefits of larger pixel pitches in terms of noise are reduced. Thanks for the comments -- that's exactly the kind of info I was trying to suss out.

Here is the full read:

http://nofilmschool.com/2011/03/sony-f3-times-light-gathering-ability-red

oh wow, that is quite a few F3 cameras you have collected now! Do have three 7Q+ as well?

[IronFilm]

On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Riadnasla said:

@mercer Thanks! This last year had me finally operating on a few more projects, but still so much tom

@Kisaha Thanks, the goats were interesting to film as they love to perch right above a busy highway and kick rocks down into traffic! I actually had a bit of difficulty making them look good in footage, as they were in the shade on grey rock with dirty white coats......separating them was interesting. Also, completely agree about the C100 and am unfortunately having to try and sell my F3 as the bulk and intimidation is simply too much for the projects I have to work on. 

Strip the F3 way way down. Just use it with internal batteries and the recorder as your monitor. Then it can become pretty lightweight and a pleasure to use when you are going solo as just yourself as the crew.

 

I too went the same pattern of at first having it heavily built up and intimidating, but ditched that eventually as too much effort without a proper crew.

11 hours ago, Riadnasla said:

In image quality, I totally agree, and if my work (and hobby) was films with a small crew, you couldn't pry the F3 from me..... Unfortunately my main shtick is glidecam, interview, and adventure style videos. 

Long story short I was convinced away from the recently released C100 and towards the F3 a few years ago while upgrading from DSLR. After realizing of bought a heavier, pro-only camera, I've been trying to afford all the pieces it didn't come with since then. 

The right tool for the job..... Unfortunately the F3 isn't for my needs and I just want to move on to a lighter camera that can fit on my glidecam and fly in the overhead bin easily. 4K....uncompressed..... All nice features I don't mind sacrificing for a solo-friendly camera. 

 

So hey, if you know anyone who needs a complete F3 and Gemini kits with batteries and media, you know who to call!

Instead of selling your F3, why not have two cameras?! (great for interviews too!)

 

 Get yourself an a6500 or a secondhand a7S mk1 on the cheap, for your glidecam to match with the F3

[Dogtown]

I think that's a much better idea than selling the F3, the a6500 or A7S or A7SII would be a great second camera for the F3, and would be easy to match, also you would the have 4K covered as well. I bought my first F3 in 2015, now this year I just picked up two more F3s as I can use them in multi live performance set up's, the F3 has every output option from HDSDI, HDMI, DVI, I can record to my Odyssey, and send a HDMI out for a streaming web feed, I have solid XLR inputs, I have a back up recording on my internal SXS cards, granted that was the weakest link in the F3, being only 420 and 35mbs XDCAM EX still it's nice to have the back up, not to mention the easy internal external  TC sync. The F3 still puts out the best 1080p image as far as I'm concerned, other than it's Big Daddy the F35, and If I want to shoot a commercial or infomercial, indie feature, it's good enough for that too! I use Nikon glass 17-55 2.8, 35-70 2.8, 80-200 2.8, I also use the 11-16 Tokina 2.8, and when I want something really nice I use my Zeiss ZF primes. I have two Odyssey 7Q+ units, one with every option RAW, APOLLO, TITAN, so for now I have the multi cam 1080p 24p, 30p, 60p system that I know will give a damn good looking finished product for the WEB, CABLE, or TV. I will add I did buy the Canon C500 because at the prices it is selling now it's a steal, and that's my 4K back up for now. I'm sure by 2019 I will have switched the F3s for F5s. I just don't see anything too my eye that really makes a difference for TV or the WEB camera wise, sure the ARRI AMIRA or ALEXA, look amazing for every output all the way to the big screen, the RED DRAGON is pretty too, but these cameras cost way to much for me to consider buying and making a return, due to my type of clients ( corporate, medical ) If I did get into higher end commercials I would just rent the cameras. It is nice to own your own gear, and know it inside and out, along with it's reliability.