Cinema5D slates the Panasonic GH5, calls V-LOG and 10bit "unusable" - They're wrong

[no_connection]

4 minutes ago, jonpais said:

 

Am I suppose to blush and feel embarrassed now? And that quote somehow gonna invalidate my opinion and everything I said?

threads like these:

 That I have seen you in even makes that point too. I can say it again if you want, I don't think dynamic range is that big of a deal. It's not unimportant but not the be all end all number to strive for. Same with resolution, there are usable standards and 480p probably won't cut it. I can say 8k is not that big of a deal and many would probably agree. 4k is good enough. Heck 2k can still be used right?

[dbp]

6 hours ago, jonpais said:

 

Can you be more specific, providing details? Because after only a spending a couple weeks with a camera, I have a pretty good sense of its strengths and weaknesses.

 

Sure. I don't usually do formal tests like shooting charts, color charts, etc. I might come to my conclusions quicker if I did this, but my test is usually just taking it out and shooting anything and everything, combined with my paid work (weddings, corporate videos, events).

I have owned and used 4 cameras extensively. Panasonic HMC150, GH2, GH4, and Blackmagic pocket. With all of them, they have strengths and weaknesses I find. It's not as simple as one is better than the other in every category. The lowly Panasonic HMC150 still wins on motion (CCDs, and all) and has color science second only to the pocket. Yet technically it's far inferior in other ways.

With all of them, I come back with footage that i'm sometimes thrilled with it, okay with, and outright disappointed with. Takes me a bit sometimes to see the variables. The GH2, for instance... over time, I noticed that under daylight, it was always great. Generally good under tungsten. But flourescant and mixed lighting, it took a big dive. And I would encounter this alot at weddings and events. Sometimes a second shooter would have a 7D, and it always handled the color on mixed lighting better. Same with the pocket and tungsten. Brilliant in daylight and florescent, but goes to the shits under tungsten. Even the stuff with an IR cut helps, but doesn't seem to cure it. That sensor really wants to  be at daylight, it seems. 

I shoot for this woman who does canine aqua therapy. Her pool is lit by these crappy mixed tungsten and florescent lights. I've used all 4 cameras there. I can *never* get the GH2 and GH4 to look good, color wise. Every profile and white balance setting, doesn't matter. HMC150 always did a much better job with the color, only exceeded by the pocket raw. HMC does a ton of stuff wrong, like resolution, dynamic range, highlight handling, but it always had nice color.

So that's kinda what I mean. Rather than definitely say Camera A is better than B, which is better than C... each seems to vary depending on the conditions. Only constant is that the pocket raw  exceeds all. *Especially* in harsh sunny conditions. It blows them all away, there. Though in tungsten, especially the 2800k tungsten, that gap narrows. 

And it takes a lot of using them to work this out. 

[Borbarad]

Well, lets see now!

panasonic will issue a statement about cinema 5d findings:

 

http://www.43rumors.com/cinema5d-gh5-test-controversy-panasonic-will-issue-an-official-statement-to-us-later-this-week/

 

 

B

[no_connection]

Hopefully a simple firmware update as 8bit show the same problem.

[fuzzynormal]

On 3/3/2017 at 4:38 AM, jonpais said:

clips from my X-T2, the extra stop or so of DR is pretty darn noticeable.

I have an x-pro2 and the gx85.  Yes, there's more DR with the Fuji.  I don't view it as being a lot of DR difference, but it's there.  Good thing too because the baked in color effects of the x-pro need a little extra grading push to align them with other camera footage.

It is fascinating to pull out so much detail in highlights and blacks from the x-pro2's clips.  Not exactly sure why Fuji buries that stuff in the color space they're using...

[jonpais]

14 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

I have an x-pro2 and the gx85.  Yes, there's more DR with the Fuji.  I don't view it as being a lot of DR difference, but it's there.  Good thing too because the baked in color effects of the x-pro need a little extra grading push to align them with other camera footage.

It is fascinating to pull out so much detail in highlights and blacks from the x-pro2's clips.  Not exactly sure why Fuji buries that stuff in the color space they're using...

Have you mixed X-T2 and GX85 footage together? I just finished testing out the Olympus 25mm f/1.2 and Fuji 90mm f/2 and was considering posting the results together in a sort of double field test, but was afraid I could never get the two to match. I shot a lot of the same subjects with both cameras and liked the idea of showing off two great lenses as well as seeing the subjects through a tele and a 'normal' lens, but was about to drop the whole thing. What do you think?

[fuzzynormal]

5 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Have you mixed X-T2 and GX85 footage together?

Yes.  

I'm writing this while procrastinating on a low-end-corporate-edit currently open in Premiere that has exactly that:  GX85 and X-pro2.  I like the x-pro2, but I don't like that it makes me color grade "backwards" from what I'm used to doing.  I have to lift the blacks and bring down the whites.  With my other cameras, it's the opposite.  Not a big deal.  Let's say I "push" up the x-pro footage and "pull" down the gx85 footage.

This doesn't even take into account the vast differences of lenses used on either camera.  The X-Pro2 was the Fuji f1.4-35mm and the f4-10-20mm.  The GX85 was an old Canon FD f1.2-55mm on a speedbooster.  And then also some other location shots done with the GX85 and an old Nikon f1.4-50mm on a speedbooster.  

Honestly, that's just a lot of variable.  I would never really get this stuff to match perfectly, but I'm making the footage harmonize, not necessarily be "perfect."  I'm not a perfectionist.  I mean, I know what shots come from what cameras and I personally can see the nuances. But that's me.  The client can't make the distinction, so therefore it's all close enough, for whatever that's worth.

[Michael Ma]

It's like you invite someone over to a prescreening of a movie that hasn't been audio mastered, and instead of telling you that there were issues with audio and hearing what you have to say about it, they publish an article to the world saying the movie is unwatchable.  Then they make assumptions and state that the audio issues probably can't be fixed.  Should anyone ever let this guy prescreen movies ever?

[dwijip]

All camera reviewers/bloggers are no longer impartial, not even eoshd. It has been that way for a while now. It's become a whole marketing/advertising system in itself. Even when bloggers/reviewers aren't bending under capitalism they will still have some kind of personal views on different cameras and brands based very much on their own experience alone. It's become meaningless to call out on bias, exaggeration or disagreeable information. 

I've taught myself to take any information on gear with a grain of salt. I've experienced burns on hasty purchases based on early reviews that said all the things I wanted to believe was true. 

[Andrew Reid]

27 minutes ago, dwijip said:

All camera reviewers/bloggers are no longer impartial, not even eoshd.

Some are more impartial than others, put it that way.

When you have personal relations with a nice man or nice woman from a marketing company or a camera company, you're not going to risk burning that bridge for the sake of a fully honest review which focuses on a number of negatives. You're just not.

Yes I myself have felt the pressure as well. I resisted and continue to do so.

If I cared about my relationship with people in the camera sales industry above the one I have with my own readers and followers, do you think I'd be blasting CInema5D on Twitter? I certainly wouldn't. For me though the blog is more important and shouldn't be 'sold' to the PR world.

Quote

It has been that way for a while now. It's become a whole marketing/advertising system in itself.

It has indeed.

Quote

Even when bloggers/reviewers aren't bending under capitalism they will still have some kind of personal views on different cameras and brands based very much on their own experience alone.

Well the latter part is fine by me. We can have different opinions based on experience and figure out which opinion suits our own experiences and how we intend to use the cameras we buy.

Quote

It's become meaningless to call out on bias, exaggeration or disagreeable information. 

It doesn't.

Regardless, whether you call somebody out or not is a personal freedom.

Especially when it comes to your own blog and some flawed test that claims the rather wonderful GH5 is unusable.

Quote

I've taught myself to take any information on gear with a grain of salt. I've experienced burns on hasty purchases based on early reviews that said all the things I wanted to believe was true. 

The hype machine is very persuasive... These types of articles get the most attention.

The truth is there is no silver bullet, you cannot buy your way to filmmaking greatness with camera purchases.

But it helps to put your $1000, $2000 or $3000 on the right horse!!

[mat33]

I haven't been following the GH5 drama nor do I regularly read cinema5D, but I do like that Johnnie Behiri's test videos are usually shot nicely often as mini-documentaries, with decent lighting etc rather than the somewhat random heavily graded montages that you usually see. 

[kidzrevil]

CInema5D's test are unfortunately the prime example of why you have to rent (if you can) before you buy. I remember when they rated the Samsung NX1 as one of the worst cameras ever and I personally can atest to its image quality. Like what everyone else said they did the test wrong...I would listen to James Milllers assessment instead. 

[Glenn Thomas]

At the end of the day, it will be the 4K 60P that most people will be buying it for. A feature currently not found in any other stills camera in that price range.

[Brellivids]

A reminder about the world we live in. In all fields of industry SCAMS are very common. Specially us consumers we are getting scammed by manufacturers and law makers lets not even talk about politicians. 

So in the light of the above is perfectly possible that Panasonic made a product which actually noes not do what it claims it does. What is real is real no matter what ppl say or claim. This case ofc could be matter of premature tech or firmware related and gets better over time. 

 

It could have been that they had to make a headline feature to compete but did not want to give out too good stuff. 

[jonpais]

1 hour ago, Brellivids said:

A reminder about the world we live in. In all fields of industry SCAMS are very common. Specially us consumers we are getting scammed by manufacturers and law makers lets not even talk about politicians. 

So in the light of the above is perfectly possible that Panasonic made a product which actually noes not do what it claims it does. What is real is real no matter what ppl say or claim. This case ofc could be matter of premature tech or firmware related and gets better over time. 

 

It could have been that they had to make a headline feature to compete but did not want to give out too good stuff. 

Why is the word scams in CAPS? Are you saying Panasonic is scamming someone? How are we being scammed by Panasonic? What does the GH5 not do that Panasonic claims it will do? What is real is real no matter what people say or claim? What does the last sentence mean? Are you a grade-schooler?

[Jeroen de Cloe]

Please don't stop the blog! You are the anti-snob and we need a healthy balance of the forces. ?

[kidzrevil]

4 hours ago, Brellivids said:

A reminder about the world we live in. In all fields of industry SCAMS are very common. Specially us consumers we are getting scammed by manufacturers and law makers lets not even talk about politicians. 

So in the light of the above is perfectly possible that Panasonic made a product which actually noes not do what it claims it does. What is real is real no matter what ppl say or claim. This case ofc could be matter of premature tech or firmware related and gets better over time. 

 

It could have been that they had to make a headline feature to compete but did not want to give out too good stuff. 

SCAM ? You are reaching dude. Its not out on the market yet, relax.

13 hours ago, dwijip said:

 

I've taught myself to take any information on gear with a grain of salt. I've experienced burns on hasty purchases based on early reviews that said all the things I wanted to believe was true. 

Happened to me with the xc10 lol

[fuzzynormal]

"Like I say, I have loved my time writing EOSHD but I am thinking I might soon stop. What has tainted it has been the sheer snobbery of some of that pro-video industry. The poor attitude so many pro videographers in particular seem to have towards newcomers and enthusiasts and artists."

For what it's worth, yours is the only website that feels authentic.  We all know the internet is now just a brown stream of corporate content, so to have a place where things are real is welcome.  Enthusiast used to have places to go in the past untainted by monied nonsense.  

Through a confluence of timing, ambition, and opportunity, and attitude, yours is a place that's remained "clean" from all of the corporate PR clutter.  No small feat in this modern life.

I'd suggest that if you decide to bow out as a guy writing content, maybe become the creative director --and then bring on board a select like-minded-few that might be willing to provide the same ethos that makes this place so special.  Or curate the more interesting organic bubblings that arise from the forum and turn those into front-page blog entries featuring input from the main players of the thread.

As for crusty snobby "pros" that bitch about people with "toys" that "don't know the first thing about making a film"... well, that sort of curmudgeon is a scared little snowflake because they rest their ego on the tech, which is always getting easier to use and better.  Not exactly the best foundation in the digital world.  There's enough of them to make a blizzard sometimes, but ultimately snow melts, doesn't it?

 

[hyalinejim]

17 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

curate the more interesting organic bubblings that arise from the forum and turn those into front-page blog entries featuring input from the main players

I vote for @Aghori Tantrik Baba

 

[Leica50mm]

Andrew, don't stop ! I enjoy your contentious content. Keep it up.