Cinema5D slates the Panasonic GH5, calls V-LOG and 10bit "unusable" - They're wrong

[Orangenz]

1 hour ago, yoclay said:

Well, that was a pretty nasty little article. 

You did not enlighten me with a single argument pro or con anything. Just launched into ... melting snowmen or something.. ? Come on, keep it positive yoclay. And evidence please. 

[dantheman]

To be fair, Andrew didn't provide any evidence either because he doesn't have the camera yet, he probably is right but his reaction seems more based on a frustration that Panasonic didn't send him a unit, the same as with the Gratical Eye Yoclay mentioned, also there he forms an opinion based on specification only and telling us how great this unit would be with a gh4 or a7s while "forgetting" and not even mentioning it has a sdi output only, even ignoring it when Yoclay mentions it. This also looked to me like a sugarcoated article with a "buy here" link in the hope that Zacuto would send him a unit which apparently never happened as I didn't find a "hands-on" article.

[ValentinDeluy]

You have been the only one that gave us the help we really needed. Your way of thinking is so rare, you are one of a kind. I have been reading almost all of your posts since the Panasonic GH2 and no other one could do the same job as you did. We grow as you did. Don't read other blogs, focus on you and your community. We love your work. Please don't feel bad about what's happening around you. I hope to read your next article soon. 

Valentin.

[yoclay]

4 hours ago, Orangenz said:

Come on, keep it positive yoclay.

That is precisely my point.  Instead of slagging off Cinema5D, why not give everyone a pass ?  As I said we are all doing the best we can. That is certainly a more positive outlook than calling people snobs who only spend their time at trade shows.  My experience of Sebastien and the rest is that they are nice, sincere people getting along and trying to build something like the rest of us. 

[Nikkor]

5 minutes ago, yoclay said:

That is precisely my point.  Instead of slagging off Cinema5D, why not give everyone a pass ?  As I said we are all doing the best we can. That is certainly a more positive outlook than calling people snobs who only spend their time at trade shows.  My experience of Sebastien and the rest is that they are nice, sincere people getting along and trying to build something like the rest of us. 

Cinema5D has a history, this is just another chapter.

[Andrew Reid]

7 hours ago, yoclay said:

Well, that was a pretty nasty little article.  Why bother ?  The guys over at Cinema5D are trying hard just like everyone else.  Andrew, you talk about them basically as if they were corporate shills, but on the other hand I remember very clearly you promoted the Zacuto eye, saying what a great small EVF for small DSLR cameras

That article wasn't a review.

It was more of a news announcement and an opinion piece.

As far as EVFs go it's best in class. That is a fact! Nothing controversial about that.

Zacuto never gave me a loan unit. Count the number of Zacuto articles on EOSHD - what is it - something like 1 or 2 in 5 years.

Hardly shill like behaviour.

And for internal recording I'd much prefer to use the Zacuto Eye on a small camera than a whopping big field monitor.

The SDI input isn't a problem. You can get tiny HDMI to SDI converters for $70.

Blackmagic do one.

https://www.bpm-media.de/Studiotechnik/Konverter/Mini-Konverter/HDMI-=/X/Blackmagic-Design-Micro-Converter-HDMI-to-SDI::372209.html?language=de&gclid=CLa706XAztICFQIL0wodRvkFEg

The irony is you critisise me for criticising C5D then call me a shill! But I'm willing to let it go as you were a great mod over at the Cinema 5D forums... You put a lot of passion into that place. Surely, were you not just a bit pissed off at Seb and Nino when they decided to offload the entire forum to Planet5D on the condition the idiot over there would monetise it?

That community sold into the gutter for a penny.

And I would never sell my members to anyone - they are not mine to sell.

Quote

and when I pointed out repeatedly that it had no HDMI input (only SDI so really not adapted at all to those cameras) in your forum, not once ever did you respond.  The point is that your criticism can be extremely harsh, yet I don't see you holding yourself to the very same standards you ask of other people.  It's obvious that not once did you try the product with the DSLR's you mentioned or even consider such a glaring error, so what was that article?  Nothing but an empty promo in the end, right ?

Like I say, you can use the Zacuto Eye on DSLRs with a $70 HDMI -> SDI

Quote

I don't point this out to shame you, but merely to say that your article seems harsh, strident and unfair.  You really seem to have a chip on your shoulder. You could have just as easily rebutted their findings with the points you made in a more gracious manner.  In the current climate do we really need more harsh hate filled rhetoric these days ? Maybe they got it right, maybe they didn't on the GH5, but it's important to cut everyone a little slack now and then. 

I don't know why Seb thought he could trade people's forum activity for money... That's the crux of that little matter.

Yes I do have a chip on my shoulder but in this instance mainly because they slated the GH5 without understanding the technical reasons behind the macro blocking in 10bit.

Yet they are in direct contact with Panasonic about this and leading them down the garden path to announcements, firmware updates and god knows what else.

Quality feedback is extremely important.

I advised Panasonic not to put a statement out about it because it would only draw attention to a negative from a flawed test, which basically claimed the GH5 was unusable for professional work, when the truth is the opposite and it is actually an incredible piece of engineering with a few normal compression artefacts in VLOG if you grade it wrong.

Facts bro.

If you need the broader picture about my supposed 'chip on shoulder' then you need to consider the full history of what Cinema5D has done for the DSLR video community. Here's a brief outline -

1. Nino and the other Seb plucked out of obscurity by Philip Bloom to intern on the infamous Red Tails shoot. Nino and Phil have remained friends

2. The point being he did not get noticed out of the quality of his work, rather by association with who he knew.

3. Cinema5D started with Jared Abrams in L.A. covering DSLR video, hence "5D" in the domain name

4. Nino instigated the shift to professional cameras and a professional standpoint on everything, completely jettisoning the fun aspect and alienating enthusiasts, as well as damaging the democratic aspect of the whole community at that time. Meanwhile Jared was dumped out in the cold.

5. Nino gives seminars and talks for money at trade shows every year and has been at almost every one I've ever been to in some kind of manufacturer or dealer sponsored capacity... BVE, Photokina, etc. Nothing wrong with making a living of course but to then turn around and claim you're giving unbiased advice on Cinema5D is a bit rich in my view. You can't do both.

6. The forum was offloaded to Mitch at Planet5D, the most clickbate resource in the whole community, he of course made a huge fuck up and it haemorrhaged users. Seb I believe did this because he couldn't be bothered to maintain it despite the fact he had a team of mods to help him, and he wanted to off load it for cash. Disgusting.

7. The general content there is just so bland. Yet because of all their manufacturer associations it floats the public's attention like sponsored content.

8. Even during the years when we were on good terms, in the past Cinema5D rarely if ever mentioned my articles in their coverage... mean spirited.

9. Rather they saw me as a bitter rival to be crushed.

10. Way before my first ever article criticising their actions, they have been extremely rude to me behind closed doors... dismissive and argumentative.

[Andrew Reid]

Thanks for all the posts asking me not to quit EOSHD.

It's been a long time running this blog by myself - 7 years now!

I am completely disillusioned with the industry, the direction it is headed in, the lack of creativity, the focus on pros, the lack of quality online rivals, the bitterness that exists in the blogging community and the amount of clickbate out there.

It's going to take a miracle for me to get my passion back.

[yoclay]

21 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

That article wasn't a review.

It was more of a news announcement and an opinion piece.

As far as EVFs go it's best in class. That is a fact! Nothing controversial about that.

Zacuto never gave me a loan unit. Count the number of Zacuto articles on EOSHD - what is it - something like 1 or 2 in 5 years.

Hardly shill like behaviour.

And for internal recording I'd much prefer to use the Zacuto Eye on a small camera than a whopping big field monitor.

The SDI input isn't a problem. You can get tiny HDMI to SDI converters for $70.

Blackmagic do one.

https://www.bpm-media.de/Studiotechnik/Konverter/Mini-Konverter/HDMI-=/X/Blackmagic-Design-Micro-Converter-HDMI-to-SDI::372209.html?language=de&gclid=CLa706XAztICFQIL0wodRvkFEg

The irony is you critisise me for criticising C5D then call me a shill! But I'm willing to let it go as you were a great mod over at the Cinema 5D forums... You put a lot of passion into that place. Surely, were you not just a bit pissed off at Seb and Nino when they decided to offload the entire forum to Planet5D on the condition the idiot over there would monetise it?

That community sold into the gutter for a penny.

And I would never sell my members to anyone - they are not mine to sell.

Like I say, you can use the Zacuto Eye on DSLRs with a $70 HDMI -> SDI

I don't know why Seb thought he could trade people's forum activity for money... That's the crux of that little matter.

Yes I do have a chip on my shoulder but in this instance mainly because they slated the GH5 without understanding the technical reasons behind the macro blocking in 10bit.

Yet they are in direct contact with Panasonic about this and leading them down the garden path to announcements, firmware updates and god knows what else.

Quality feedback is extremely important.

I advised Panasonic not to put a statement out about it because it would only draw attention to a negative from a flawed test, which basically claimed the GH5 was unusable for professional work, when the truth is the opposite and it is actually an incredible piece of engineering with a few normal compression artefacts in VLOG if you grade it wrong.

Facts bro.

If you need the broader picture about my supposed 'chip on shoulder' then you need to consider the full history of what Cinema5D has done for the DSLR video community. Here's a brief outline -

1. Nino and the other Seb plucked out of obscurity by Philip Bloom to intern on the infamous Red Tails shoot. Nino and Phil have remained friends

2. The point being he did not get noticed out of the quality of his work, rather by association with who he knew.

3. Cinema5D started with Jared Abrams in L.A. covering DSLR video, hence "5D" in the domain name

4. Nino instigated the shift to professional cameras and a professional standpoint on everything, completely jettisoning the fun aspect and alienating enthusiasts, as well as damaging the democratic aspect of the whole community at that time. Meanwhile Jared was dumped out in the cold.

5. Nino gives seminars and talks for money at trade shows every year and has been at almost every one I've ever been to in some kind of manufacturer or dealer sponsored capacity... BVE, Photokina, etc. Nothing wrong with making a living of course but to then turn around and claim you're giving unbiased advice on Cinema5D is a bit rich in my view. You can't do both.

6. The forum was offloaded to Mitch at Planet5D, the most clickbate resource in the whole community, he of course made a huge fuck up and it haemorrhaged users. Seb I believe did this because he couldn't be bothered to maintain it despite the fact he had a team of mods to help him, and he wanted to off load it for cash. Disgusting.

7. The general content there is just so bland. Yet because of all their manufacturer associations it floats the public's attention like sponsored content.

8. Even during the years when we were on good terms, in the past Cinema5D rarely if ever mentioned my articles in their coverage... mean spirited.

9. Rather they saw me as a bitter rival to be crushed.

10. Way before my first ever article criticising their actions, they have been extremely rude to me behind closed doors... dismissive and argumentative.

Actually Andrew, I don't view you any more of a shill than them.  Which is my point.  I think everyone is just trying to create something in their own way.  And I really respect that.  As you know it takes a lot of effort to keep any project up and running.  Hat's off to everyone who does it ! I was not upset about the cinema5D forum being let go of either (thank you for the compliment for my moderation by the way,  I really tried to keep it a place where there was respect for everyone). To be honest, I think the forum was declining considerably because everyone was moving on from the 5D and that there are sufficiently other forums out there that it wasn't needed.  Actually, I find myself going to the new cinema5D frequently just to keep abreast of developments in a simple visual way, rather than piling through DVXuser posts, etc.

What I think too, is that the next step in each person's career requires increasing relationships to the community of professionals on all levels.  This is how a reputation develops and work is to be found.  It's a normal part of the growing process. I think Cinema5D have tried to do tests which are independent of sponsorship and have on many occasions criticized the advance products they tested from many companies which were even sponsoring some of their trade floor interviews.  On the other hand, I myself said that I would like to see more about the sensor issues related to the new Blackmagic 4.6K Pro, rather than a list of already available new hardware features. 

Ultimately, respect is valuable in these times.  I am horrified by the inflammatory tweet wars going on in my own country for instance.  I prefer to believe in the best of people rather than focusing on the negatives.

Keep up the good work and the passion Andrew !

Peace out.

Clayton

[Andrew Reid]

Of course man!

I am all for finding common ground.

It's just that I'd like to keep the normal pre-conditions to actually liking the person first before seeing if we have common ground.

I have met Nino in person

In our very first meeting in Berlin he preferred to answer a business call and disappear mid sentence than be attentive to the person sat in front of him who he was having the beer with.

[Fritz Pierre]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Thanks for all the posts asking me not to quit EOSHD.

It's been a long time running this blog by myself - 7 years now!

I am completely disillusioned with the industry, the direction it is headed in, the lack of creativity, the focus on pros, the lack of quality online rivals, the bitterness that exists in the blogging community and the amount of clickbate out there.

It's going to take a miracle for me to get my passion back.

Hi Andrew...my 2 cents worth...you are both a gifted writer and have a great eye with a camera,  and have somehow managed to maintain integrity through the years....regardless of your decision, there has been much benefit to the EOSHD members as a result of your work....as you will get your GH5 long before I get mine, I am definitely looking forward to what you do with the camera, as well as a shooters guide for it, if you choose to do one!

[fuzzynormal]

Of course, the "chip on the shoulder" is the exact reason why this place has more authenticity than others and feels more real. 

Its why the articles that do appear actually are entertaining and don't feel like  slogging through some PR brochure.

Its why the forum has some juice behind it.

Its not self censored for safe or broad corporate appeal. I, for one, appreciate that, and the culture it allows, if nothing else. 

[Andrew Reid]

Hey Fritz

Thanks!! Really looking forward to the GH5, my pre order should arrive on the 21st in the UK

And yeah the temptation is always to make money from plonking 5 sponsors logos on the front of my reviews and videos plus a page full of advertising and tracking cookies... But I have never done that and don't get enough recognition for it.

Just trying to keep the blog's content unmolested

its a shame more rivals don't do this because I am on verge of turning off from the whole thing... internet in general!

 

28 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Of course, the "chip on the shoulder" is the exact reason why this place has more authenticity than others and feels more real. 

Its why the articles that do appear actually are entertaining and don't feel like  slogging through some PR brochure.

Its why the forum has some juice behind it.

Its not self censored for safe or broad corporate appeal. I, for one, appreciate that, and the culture it allows, if nothing else. 

You're absolutely right

i would have to water down all the jokes and jibes or remove them entirely if I were to please Sony, Panasonic, etc and the PR people all the time... What's the point?

[Don Kotlos]

EOSHD is a great community. Not having eye-puncturing ads is a huge plus as well. But as yoclay mentions, it needs to be a positive place. Criticism and negativity should be kept apart. I do enjoy the personal style of the articles, but as evident in this thread negativity spreads fast and nothing really comes out at the end.

10bit from GH5 is of course quite usable and Cinema5D is wrong on many things, but the color blotchiness (YUV chroma smearing) is a real problem and of course not only with Panasonic cameras (and not only to 8bits). Cinema5D does look biased cause any A7x camera with Slog suffers with the same problem, but lets focus on what we need: a better codec. It is unfortunate that companies seem to listen only with these extreme but easily spreading titles but it has been done in this forum as well.

In any case, I hope the codec in summer helps a bit and all camera companies focus to improve their codecs. 

[Fritz Pierre]

10 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Hey Fritz

Thanks!! Really looking forward to the GH5, my pre order should arrive on the 21st in the UK

And yeah the temptation is always to make money from plonking 5 sponsors logos on the front of my reviews and videos plus a page full of advertising and tracking cookies... But I have never done that and don't get enough recognition for it.

Just trying to keep the blog's content unmolested

its a shame more rivals don't do this because I am on verge of turning off from the whole thing... internet in general!

 

You're absolutely right

i would have to water down all the jokes and jibes or remove them entirely if I were to please Sony, Panasonic, etc and the PR people all the time... What's the point?

Hi Andrew...we just watched Knight of Cups the other evening...Director Terrence Mallick and DOP Emanuel Lubezki....the moire on any stairwell scenes were so bad, it actually looked like a special effect....yet they don't seem to give a shit...because they're making a feature and overall Mallick makes visually some of the most stunning films in contemporary times...and in a way that's what I appreciate the most in how you view cameras in EOSHD....as a tool...not something to be squinted at at 400 percent zoom, but something that's possible to operate under the rigors and schedule of making a feature...not a single frame...because a frame represents 1 24th of a second in a 2 to 21/2 hour film....whether the tool overheats while you're shooting ....or is limited by how long you can shoot or is reliable, or can shoot while you're stumbling in the dark, are all choices the individual has to make for themselves, but if I had to say one thing that stands out for me in any piece of gear you write about, it clarifies for me as a filmmaker whether that piece of gear would work for me as a tool or not, and that as a resource is at least for me invaluable!

 

[fuzzynormal]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

on verge of turning off from the whole thing... internet in general!

Not alone.  It's my favorite procrastination tool, among other cons.  Feel like it often diminishes my quality of life rather than enhances it.

[Neumann Films]

10 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Not alone.  It's my favorite procrastination tool, among other cons.  Feel like it often diminishes my quality of life rather than enhances it.

My wife and I recently went on a little vacation and I chose to not bring my phone...it was bliss.  Cleared my head of so many things and just felt...untangled.  I would highly suggest it to anyone that dare try.

[fuzzynormal]

54 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

My wife and I recently went on a little vacation and I chose to not bring my phone...it was bliss.  Cleared my head of so many things and just felt...untangled.  I would highly suggest it to anyone that dare try.

Yeah, I'm of an age that knows a history without the information super highway mobile World Wide Web, so I had a life untethered. Maybe I romanticize that nostalgia a bit, but, among other things, I do know what it was like to have a conversation with friends about stuff before an easy answer was in everyone's pocket. 

[Neumann Films]

13 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Yeah, I'm of an age that knows a history without the information super highway mobile World Wide Web, so I had a life untethered. Maybe I romanticize that nostalgia a bit, but, among other things, I do know what it was like to have a conversation with friends about stuff before an easy answer was in everyone's pocket. 

Yup, I grew up in the country with no cable and we had to chop firewood for heat...lol.  I always find this to be a fascinating discussion though...I think people of our age group are some of the "oldest young people" in history.  We know of a life (pre internet/cell phones) that younger folks can't even comprehend.  

The invention of the automobile and people that experienced life before and after cars probably went though something similar.  

At 33 years old,  I can instantly feel like an "old man" when talking to 20 year old simply by discussing what life was like as a kid for me.  Usually that seems to take a full generation to happen.

[mercer]

5 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

Yup, I grew up in the country with no cable and we had to chop firewood for heat...lol.  I always find this to be a fascinating discussion though...I think people of our age group are some of the "oldest young people" in history.  We know of a life (pre internet/cell phones) that younger folks can't even comprehend.  

The invention of the automobile and people that experienced life before and after cars probably went though something similar.  

At 33 years old,  I can instantly feel like an "old man" when talking to 20 year old simply by discussing what life was like as a kid for me.  Usually that seems to take a full generation to happen.

I'm 42. In high school computer classes involved typing and running some DOS program. I think I had my first legal drink before I ever sent an email. I remember the days when I would yell at my brother to get off the phone because I was hoping some girl was going to call... she never did. Lol. Well she probably did but gave up because of the busy signal. Hell I remember when call waiting was the newest technology that I had to explain to my parents when they kept asking why the phone kept beeping at them. Lol. 

[Neumann Films]

4 minutes ago, mercer said:

I'm 42. In high school computer classes involved typing and running some DOS program. I think I had my first legal drink before I ever sent an email. I remember the days when I would yell at my brother to get off the phone because I was hoping some girl was going to call... she never did. Lol. Well she probably did but gave up because of the busy signal. Hell I remember when call waiting was the newest technology that I had to explain to my parents when they kept asking why the phone kept beeping at them. Lol. 

Yup, I ran some video games from DOS.  I remember using the internet for the first time to play Dark Forces: Jedi Knight with a friend, he had to call my parents land line and the phone would actually ring, then I would pick up etc, very weird.  Also...we had a shared land line with neighbors at one point and one of those old phones with the dial.  So, we would pick up the phone to call and a neighbor would be using the phone so you had to wait.  I can just see how this would sound to a 20 year old, like a post-apocalyptic Sci-Fi or something!