New Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro looks great, but where's the new Pocket Cinema Camera?

[mercer]

4 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Well you can shoot a feature with a GH4 as well!

However, put BMPCC in the headline and it gets more clicks. NoFilmSchool are known for this... Their main innovation is putting "Kubrick" in a headline for clicks and ad revenue.

The BMPCC was a perfect building block for the later evolutions that never came... All they needed to do was keep the product concept and pricing, upgrade the sensor to Super 35mm and sort out the terrible battery.

IDK, I am sure I am biased because I love the image out of the BMPCC, but I think the same material shot on both cameras will look "better" with the Pocket than the GH4.

And yeah... if they offered a Super 35mm Pocket in 2.5k with EF mount and I'd hand over 2 grand to them... but I'd rather give them $995... Lol. 

8 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Maybe the sensor production issues were a problem, or they can't get enough sensors to do a big run of thousands of low priced cameras.

I have a feeling though that there just wasn't enough margin and profit in the Pocket and BMCC, and the market was too fiercely competitive (vs GH5, Sony, etc.) so they are focussing all their efforts on the $6000 beast instead.

Yeah very possible. Someone mentioned earlier... in this thread or another... that the Pocket was introduced at NAB '13. The Micro was announced at NAB '15... maybe the Pocket 2 will be announced this NAB. We'll see. According to 43Rumors a Pocket II will be released... time will tell. 

[jonpais]

At a Black Magic party in Ho Chi Minh I attended last month, the company representative from Singapore was saying one of Black Magic's chief obstacles to being adopted by professionals here was their low price (the perception that less money = lower quality). Has anyone ever heard this before? 

[dbp]

I've heard of that phenomenon. Never thought of that, actually. Same with finding work, I've read from many that if you charge too little, it can hurt you based on that same logic.

Interesting. 

[hijodeibn]

3 minutes ago, jonpais said:

At a Black Magic party in Ho Chi Minh I attended last month, the company representative from Singapore was saying one of Black Magic's chief obstacles to being adopted by professionals here was their low price (the perception that less money = lower quality). Has anyone ever heard this before? 

To be honest I think the main reason that pros kept away from BM was the many issues with the first versions of their cameras, really a lot of problems, banding, low light performance, batteries, hot pixels, etc…..you named it and you can find it in BM cameras….the BM forum was certainly in fire those days with all the complains…...so now for a pro is really hard to trust in the new BM cameras, but the Ursa mini pro could probably change that perception, time will tell……..

[Kisaha]

@jonpais this is a silly notion and first time I heard something so crazy like this.

Their products just lacked in very essential links of the whole chain that is a video production.

Most people were enthusiastic about them, exactly because they were "cheap", but most realized than it wasn't so, when you were adding everything to shoot in a good and efficient manner. Add delays, QC problems, promises couldn't keep etc

We have mention half a dozen of each, above in various posts. 

This camera is their most complete, it will sell more, it still lacks some serious stuff though, and if you put everything together for maximum performance the price adds up a lot, most people will go for a FS7 or C300mkII.

If you want to take it lightly and use SD cards, and no EVF, and find the cheapest battery solution (and do NOT need the fricking handle!) then it can compete for lower tier ones (FS5/C100ii). 

It is somehow in the middle, very dangerous spot to try to market your thingy!

[dbp]

It'll sell more if it's proven reliable, and honestly, blackmagic will likely have to be patient and put in work to undo the damage from their past offerings. People remember that stuff, and won't trust gear on important shoots if there are QC issues. 

[mercer]

No way the Ursa Pro will sell more than the Pocket did... the profit margins may be greater and maybe they'll make more in the long run... maybe... but no way they'll sell as many Ursa Pros as they did and continue to sell Pockets.

[Kisaha]

@mercer Who is buying a NEW Pocket these days? You have to see the market as it is, not as you would like it to be. Personally I know dozens of people owning C100s and just 2 own a Pocket. Even if it sells more than the two I know, it would have sell more in Greece than the pocket (joke)!

Ursa mini pro has a lot of uses, if it works well, it will sell "well", the only issue is the possibility to be lost in "no man's land". As I said before, dual pixel AF of Canon and Variable ND of Sony are the two most coveted features these days and their image quality is adequate for most things, plus their fan and users base. 

[webrunner5]

We are also forgetting the Ursa Mini 4k model, hell they are only 2995 new. I have seen them for 2400 bucks used. 2400 bucks, that is a hell of a buy for a real Camcorder style camera. I am not sure a GH5 is worth 2000 when I can get a Mini for 2400! They have the bugs worked out on them. And the thing shoots Raw and ProRes, Raw for 2400 bucks and a s35 sensor!

Heck maybe they are a better buy than a used Canon C100 mkII? I have never used either one but it is 4k and has Raw. Opinions.

[mercer]

28 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

@mercer Who is buying a NEW Pocket these days? You have to see the market as it is, not as you would like it to be. Personally I know dozens of people owning C100s and just 2 own a Pocket. Even if it sells more than the two I know, it would have sell more in Greece than the pocket (joke)!

Ursa mini pro has a lot of uses, if it works well, it will sell "well", the only issue is the possibility to be lost in "no man's land". As I said before, dual pixel AF of Canon and Variable ND of Sony are the two most coveted features these days and their image quality is adequate for most things, plus their fan and users base. 

Me. And if they weren't selling BH wouldn't still have them in stock. And we're not talking about a C100... we're talking about if BM sells more Ursa Pros than they sold and continue to sell of the Pocket.

I mean, 3-4 years after its release and there is not another camera at its price range that can match its IQ. IMO.

[kaylee]

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The BMPCC was a perfect building block for the later evolutions that never came... All they needed to do was keep the product concept and pricing, upgrade the sensor to Super 35mm and sort out the terrible battery.

totally agree. and a flippy screen. id buy one for sure. so would a lot of other people

[SR]

Better screen, better battery life--to sound like a broken record--and ditch the Sony-thin body. 

[Davey]

3 hours ago, jonpais said:

At a Black Magic party in Ho Chi Minh I attended last month, the company representative from Singapore was saying one of Black Magic's chief obstacles to being adopted by professionals here was their low price (the perception that less money = lower quality). Has anyone ever heard this before? 

I nearly didn't buy the 55mm f1.8 by Sony because it wasn't £900 like the 90mm f2.8 and the 28mm f2 had to be rubbish at only £350. Everybody knows about the Sony lens premium but I went ahead and bought those two lenses with great suspicion that there must be something wrong with them - which there isn't.

I shall do the same with the Sony 85mm f1.8 (£600), worrying that I should have got the Batis at £1000 or the f1.4 GM at £1600.

Half price camera bodies and lenses - or half price anything for that matter - whispers to us there must be something crappy about it.

The BMPCC is £70 cheaper than a GH4, so the end product (image) must be worse.

The saying "You get what you pay for" can deceive us.

[jonpais]

3 minutes ago, Davey said:

I nearly didn't buy the 55mm f1.8 by Sony because it wasn't £900 like the 90mm f2.8 and the 28mm f2 had to be rubbish at only £350. Everybody knows about the Sony lens premium but I went ahead and bought those two lenses with great suspicion that there must be something wrong with them - which there isn't.

I shall do the same with the Sony 85mm f1.8 (£600), worrying that I should have got the Batis at £1000 or the f1.4 GM at £1600.

Half price camera bodies and lenses - or half price anything for that matter - whispers to us there must be something crappy about it.

The BMPCC is £70 cheaper than a GH4, so the end product (image) must be worse.

The saying "You get what you pay for" can deceive us.

When they told me this I thought exactly like you - the Nocticron costs $1,600.00, it must be ten times better than lenses costing 1/4 of the price. Of course, that's only partially true! ?

[marcuswolschon]

Some here seem to be under the impression that the URSA Pro records raw onto SD -cards...it doesn't.

From the tech specs:

"2 x CFast for 4.6K RAW and ProRes recording. 2 x SD UHS-II card slots for HD and Ultra HD recording."

It can record some form of UHD (the TV-standard, not cinema DCI 4K) onto SD cards. For 4.6K RAW it needs these expensive CFast media... and obviously a lot of that.

 

I have 2 of the Blackmagic Pocket for 4 years now (remember that 500eur deal?). They are great.

BUT...who in their right mind would buy a FullHD-only camera with bad audio preamps in 2017?

After 4 years I was finally hoping for 4K or at least UHD and SATA SSD or at least M.2 sticks as a recording medium and a fan instead of a peltier for cooling and thus decent battery life.

3 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

We are also forgetting the Ursa Mini 4k model, hell they are only 2995 new. I have seen them for 2400 bucks used.

 

Very good point.

Sadly you need to sell your entire MFT lens collection to buy EF and buy these expensive CFast cards (200eur for 12x128GB cheap or 815eur for 128GB from Sandisk).

And be ready to find yourself buying the +1600eur viewfinder soon. Right after the 500eur V-mount charger+2 batteries.

[graphicnatured]

6 hours ago, dbp said:

Got a juicebox magicpower and that all changed. Runs for like 7 hours straight and mounts on top of the camera. But as you say, not really a pocket camera anymore. And another expense to consider.

Here's the funny thing about that comment. It still is a pocket camera in a way. I use my pocket both on and off my Beholder gimbal while keeping my Jukebox in my sweatshirt pocket, at the ready, between shots. Works like a charm and I've yet to run out of battery in a day. The image coming out of the pocket took some working to make easier, but as tech has progressed so many new products have come out to make this cam better. I have few complaints with my pocket cam.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, graphicnatured said:

Here's the funny thing about that comment. It still is a pocket camera in a way. I use my pocket both on and off my Beholder gimbal while keeping my Jukebox in my sweatshirt pocket, at the ready, between shots. Works like a charm and I've yet to run out of battery in a day. The image coming out of the pocket took some working to make easier, but as tech has progressed so many new products have come out to make this cam better. I have few complaints with my pocket cam.

Good idea. 

[Anna Possberg]

I was hoping for a 4K Pocket in m43 and got very disappointed last night. As a wildlife filmmaker I belong to the niche of the niche and I am aware that there is hardly a market for us. Still I wait for a 4K m43 that fits the pocket of an indie wildlife filmmaker. The budgets for wildlife docs are shrinking yet the costs to produce them are rising. So, although the Pocket had its downsizes it allowed me to shoot high-quality stuff until broadcasters expect nothing less than to deliver 4K mastering. 

The much hailed Super 35 sensor is great for a lot of situations but for shooting wildlife in 4K is painful. Grant showed yesterday a sleek picture of a cameraman shooting penguins with an Ursa implying that it is also a wildlife cam. The reality is totally different as in most cases I have to keep a serious distance to my wild subject. Meaning I need all the tele I can get (and depth of field as animals like to move unpredictably). Which is fine with a m43 sensor with its crop factor. And with all the rigging the Pocket is still a camera I can carry for hours off the beaten tracks. And I can still use my arsenal of m43 lenses. The tele lenses for a Super 35 sensor are very heavy and very expensive. And mostly primes - unusable for documentaries like I do. (Yes, Canon has a fine zoom lens 50-1000 mm at only 70 000 USD).

So for now I will wait for more footage from the GH5 - maybe it is my next camera.... 

[Liszon]

Many people have a good point here and I really couldn't see the Mini Pro coming, but I reckon they positioned it to became their flagship halfblood cam, emptied the whole fridge into the pan to make it jack of all trades now and I doubt it would jeopardize their lower end line.

The Pocket complemented the big URSA, the Micro did the same with the URSA Mini and I doupt their latest top of the range shoulder blaster will stay without a cute melee weapon for too long.

Also they still sell every piece of gear they made so far, even their first cinema camera is still available to buy brand new. They are patching every hole in the market with almost a half grand precision.

[Tone1k]

A $6000 dollar 'beast'  is unaffordable?  Surely if you need RAW then $6000 is super cheap compared to most other cameras out there.  Not long ago $15,000 got you 2/3" chips and a Hi8 or SVHS back!  You wanted 10bit, you needed to spend double that with similar features to this Ursa Mini Pro.  Sorry  I'm showing my age!

Not sure you can expect another RAW recording camera,  this time with 4.6k S35 sensor (original was s16)  for $995 unless you accept similar flaws to the original pocket.  The reason it was so cheap is because it was so underdeveloped so a sorted one will never fit into the same pricing strategy you mention. 

 

Id love you to prove me wrong,  but I don't expect it.