New Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro looks great, but where's the new Pocket Cinema Camera?

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

Ursa pro mini is not a one-off camera, people will buy those to stick in the long term, being from basic (but with advanced hype) productions right now with the SD cards, a better production later on with the CF cards, and a feature with the recorded on the back. This is the selling point of the mini, and it is all over their site, as they do not stress enough how possible is to do it all with this camera (including studio work).

First of all the lower spec-ed Reds or the older ones aren't that competitive to the Ursa with the 4.6K sensor right now; this Ursa upgrade is hugely on the right way that will attract all those considering buying a used Red (with I do not know how many hours on the sensor), and Alexa (and the best of the Reds) are so far ahead that aren't even an option.

Do you know how many top Red and Alexa cameras people own? Less than you think, most are belonging to rental companies.

Yeah and Red cameras suck ass for the cost of accesories on them. Someone can give you the Brain and you can't afford one. I am not saying the Pro is cheap, but it comes with most of the stuff you need. I mean I could Almost see myself being able to buy one new if I bust my ass on saving money for it for less than a year. Sure as hell never going to buy a New Red, Arri. Not even a used Red, unless it is a Red One.

[mercer]

2 hours ago, robertmanningjr said:

I also agree.  May I add that I am an owner of the large URSA, which I love by the way, and I'm still waiting for the 4.6K sensor!!!  The reason I bought the large URSA is because of the ability to add new sensors, but alas I am waiting like everyone else.

Are you going to buy the upgrade at a discounted price? Or are you just pissed?

[Kisaha]

@webrunner5 ...and you can do most things C100markII does (except low light performance and Dual Pixel AF, sorry!) and you can go the extra mile and play with  4.6K/60fps raw!!

EF/PL/B4 (imagine the possibilities on this!) and Nikon mount is coming (with smooth aperture ring!). It is a well thought move, it's ticking a lot of boxes for some, but most people will go with the low light performance and best AF. Still there is a market for this Ursa, more than the previous ones.

Also,  "Blackmagic is also generously offering an upgrade to owners of the full-sized URSA for $3,495, allowing existing users to keep their original URSA and get the new camera at a heavy discount" that is unbelievable!

You can just sell the big one for a few thousands and get the new one! It is a no brainer I guess..

 

[webrunner5]

23 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

@webrunner5 ...and you can do most things C100markII does (except low light performance and Dual Pixel AF, sorry!) and you can go the extra mile and play with  4.6K/60fps raw!!

EF/PL/B4 (imagine the possibilities on this!) and Nikon mount is coming (with smooth aperture ring!). It is a well thought move, it's ticking a lot of boxes for some, but most people will go with the low light performance and best AF. Still there is a market for this Ursa, more than the previous ones.

Also,  "Blackmagic is also generously offering an upgrade to owners of the full-sized URSA for $3,495, allowing existing users to keep their original URSA and get the new camera at a heavy discount" that is unbelievable!

You can just sell the big one for a few thousands and get the new one! It is a no brainer I guess..

 

Wow I never heard about the upgrade. That is fair as hell. I am not too sure how they are going to make the B4 option work without a heavy crop on the sensor, or have to use a 1.4 or 2x extender between lens and camera to make it work, but would suck ass as far as F stops go.  B4 2/3" lenses just cover a m4/3 sensor with the 2x engaged.

I think you could totally make a full time living with this new Ursa Mini Pro, it is that impressive specs wise.

Canon had better think real hard about the pricing of the C100 mkIII now with this out. It had Better be 4k, and have a high bit rate to boot. But a C100 is ready to shoot right out of the box with just adding a lens and memory card. So that helps price wise. But I am glad Blackmagic is not getting into the stupid priority battery, memory media crap business.

[Kisaha]

https://www.provideocoalition.com/blackmagic-designs-ursa-mini-4-6k-b4-lens-adapter/

https://***URL not allowed***/blackmagic-design-talks-b4-mount-ursa-mini/

maybe these are interesting to some, there are infinite such lenses, and sure a lot can be found for good prices as a lot of people changed to dSLRs and EF and other mounts in the last decade, I am not sure about compatibility though.

I sure would love to use this camera with the new Sigma zooms though, something not unheard for these price ranges (camera+lenses https://www.ducloslenses.com/products/sigmazoomset)

[Bkn Soc of Cinematography]

The Ursa Pro is really tempting. But I'm going to hold off until I see some real world reports. The last Mini was fraught with numerous QC issues. I'm not ready to be a beta testing guinea pig. All that said, when BMD gets it together, their cameras produce much richer images than the competition. In this case, their direct competition will be the  FS7, FS5 and Canon C300 II. While I've used Sony's F series for numerable productions, aside from the F55/5, their color science has always been lacking especially for narrative work - thin flesh tones, green undertone, etc. C 300 II is an excellent camera but with great IQ but its price point is about double the Ursa Pro.

While the Ursa's sensitivity isn't on par with Sony or Canon, 800 native ISO, is still plenty fast and will let you get away with minimal lighting with fast glass. The ND wheel with calibrated IR is most welcome. For gimbal users and docs this is indispensable. My biggest misgiving as Andrew mentioned, a camcorder batt system would really make this a killer camera. Imagine using Sony NP or BT batts. The weight and footprint savings would be a boon to handheld, drone and gimbal use as well as a huge expense saving we could use towards those CF cards. The last grip is a lack of an OLPF. This truly makes a difference. Wouldn't have been too complicated to throw that in.

Can't wait to see footage.

[webrunner5]

Well if they sort of are going for a ENG audience well the big batteries will help balance long zoom lenses. There is a reason news cameras had them. Plus they last forever with the big ones. And I am sure people will make plates that you can use just about any battery on them.

I doubt there is any room in it anyway. I heard that inside it has a big Aluminum heat sink? No fan either?

[Juxx989]

Seems like they are trying to really change the game like maybe you keep the same body for years and they sell you a 6k sensor to stick in it in 2 years....

I just came across this vid

@ 30min he talks about URSA Pro he was sponsored by them last year and says he has some connections and claims BM is DEFENETLY releasing more gear at NAB

What else could it be? Must be BMPCC 2.0? or a capture card for Ipads... 

[John Brawley]

The camera's face barriers to higher end acceptance because a lot of camera rental companies don't even stock them.

You can't rent them from Panavision.  They're just too cheap to be worthwhile to rent out.  They're cheaper to buy for a production than to rent. 

I haven't bought a camera for a show for a long long time.  I only rent.  I own two of my UM4.6K bodies because the production bought them for the show I was shooting and "gave" them to me at the end because they'd written off the costs, which were, in the scheme of things very small for camera.

JB

 

 

[Ed_David]

On 3/7/2017 at 0:15 AM, John Brawley said:

The camera's face barriers to higher end acceptance because a lot of camera rental companies don't even stock them.

You can't rent them from Panavision.  They're just too cheap to be worthwhile to rent out.  They're cheaper to buy for a production than to rent. 

I haven't bought a camera for a show for a long long time.  I only rent.  I own two of my UM4.6K bodies because the production bought them for the show I was shooting and "gave" them to me at the end because they'd written off the costs, which were, in the scheme of things very small for camera.

JB

 

 

I think more and more rental houses will start buying them once we start shooting really beautiful stuff with them and show them to be reliable.

I bought the Ursa Mini 4.6k EF - after my stupidity on this forum - and I couldn't be happier.

[Tim Sewell]

On 3/10/2017 at 10:15 PM, Ed_David said:

I think more and more rental houses will start buying them once we start shooting really beautiful stuff with them and show them to be reliable.

I can't see this happening - not only is what John said true - they'd be cheaper for shows to buy than to rent, but for the rental houses themselves the rent they could charge likely wouldn't cover their costs in terms of storage/personnel/insurance/marketing/admin etc. These companies have cost bases built around the kind of revenue they get from renting out the big boys' toys.

[Ed_David]

On 3/13/2017 at 11:01 AM, Tim Sewell said:

I can't see this happening - not only is what John said true - they'd be cheaper for shows to buy than to rent, but for the rental houses themselves the rent they could charge likely wouldn't cover their costs in terms of storage/personnel/insurance/marketing/admin etc. These companies have cost bases built around the kind of revenue they get from renting out the big boys' toys.

The Sony FS7 is a very rented item - and it's only about $3k more than the Ursa Mini Pro.  They make a lot on low-cost items because people want to rent them fully kitted out and with backup options vs buying one and having it break down without any support.

[Tim Sewell]

Quote

The Sony FS7 is a very rented item - and it's only about $3k more than the Ursa Mini Pro.  They make a lot on low-cost items because people want to rent them fully kitted out and with backup options vs buying one and having it break down without any support.

Makes sense, I guess.

[Kisaha]

In my country the most rented cameras are the C100, rental houses have dozens of them, while a few C300 (per shop) and less of the rest. It isn't about cost, it is about demand I guess, most people will skip Ursa's for a Canon or Sony, 9 times out of 10, so why to stock Ursa cameras?

[Ed_David]

17 hours ago, Kisaha said:

In my country the most rented cameras are the C100, rental houses have dozens of them, while a few C300 (per shop) and less of the rest. It isn't about cost, it is about demand I guess, most people will skip Ursa's for a Canon or Sony, 9 times out of 10, so why to stock Ursa cameras?

The more people know about the Ursa's image quality - which blows the c300 mark ii and fs7 out of the water - and the compactness and usermenu system that is 400x easier than either - the more people will rent them.

I'm blown away by the ursa mini 4.6k.  Blown away.

[graphicnatured]

56 minutes ago, Ed_David said:

The more people know about the Ursa's image quality - which blows the c300 mark ii and fs7 out of the water - and the compactness and usermenu system that is 400x easier than either - the more people will rent them.

I'm blown away by the ursa mini 4.6k.  Blown away.

We have an FS7 at work and the only time I use it is for slow mo and when that time comes I hate it every time. Doesn't hold a candle to BM IMO.

[Andrew Reid]

On 07/03/2017 at 6:15 AM, John Brawley said:

The camera's face barriers to higher end acceptance because a lot of camera rental companies don't even stock them.

You can't rent them from Panavision.  They're just too cheap to be worthwhile to rent out.  They're cheaper to buy for a production than to rent. 

Do you mean the BMCC and Pocket, or is this the case even with the URSA cameras?

That would be short-sighted of the rental companies, but also a sign of how Canon and Sony have that market really tightly sown up between them. Even Panasonic have trouble with the Varicam at rental vs those two.

I think it's a market which is too slow to change... a creature of habit. "C300 works so why change"

This is why I wanted Blackmagic to stick to the BMCC and Pocket concept - affordable cinema cameras for the masses to buy in a shop. Instead they seem to think the pro and rental market is for them.

Perhaps the consumer market for the Pocket was just too fickle, at the other extreme of the spectrum and the margins weren't high enough?

Personally I think there is a HUGE pent up demand for RAW video and ProRes in a mirrorless camera.

If Blackmagic put out a GH5 rival shooting RAW (DJI have proved it's possible already), they'd sell a boat load of $2000 cameras to almost everyone from beginners to pros.

That would play well into the ecosystem they are building around Resolve too.

Instead, I am just not that hot for the $6k URSA, however nice it may be.

[Cinegain]

1 hour ago, Ed_David said:

The more people know about the Ursa's image quality - which blows the c300 mark ii and fs7 out of the water - and the compactness and usermenu system that is 400x easier than either - the more people will rent them.

I'm blown away by the ursa mini 4.6k.  Blown away.

How does its vibe hold up against a Sony F35, though?

[graphicnatured]

7 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Do you mean the BMCC and Pocket, or is this the case even with the URSA cameras?

That would be short-sighted of the rental companies, but also a sign of how Canon and Sony have that market really tightly sown up between them. Even Panasonic have trouble with the Varicam at rental vs those two.

I think it's a market which is too slow to change... a creature of habit. "C300 works so why change"

This is why I wanted Blackmagic to stick to the BMCC and Pocket concept - affordable cinema cameras for the masses to buy in a shop. Instead they seem to think the pro and rental market is for them.

Perhaps the consumer market for the Pocket was just too fickle, at the other extreme of the spectrum and the margins weren't high enough?

Personally I think there is a HUGE pent up demand for RAW video and ProRes in a mirrorless camera.

If Blackmagic put out a GH5 rival shooting RAW (DJI have proved it's possible already), they'd sell a boat load of $2000 cameras to almost everyone from beginners to pros.

That would play well into the ecosystem they are building around Resolve too.

Instead, I am just not that hot for the $6k URSA, however nice it may be.

I see what you mean regarding a GH5-type camera and that would be awesome. Maybe this is still in the cards for them in the near future, but I can also see why they are doing what they are. Problems as a new camera company aside, the image out of the Ursa Mini is amazing for that price. I can see why anyone would be excited by this cam and the possibilities with their tech that only they know at this point. I'm hoping they have the predicted success with their pro model and maybe we'll see these other cams like a new pocket sooner.

[zerocool22]

2 hours ago, graphicnatured said:

I see what you mean regarding a GH5-type camera and that would be awesome. Maybe this is still in the cards for them in the near future, but I can also see why they are doing what they are. Problems as a new camera company aside, the image out of the Ursa Mini is amazing for that price. I can see why anyone would be excited by this cam and the possibilities with their tech that only they know at this point. I'm hoping they have the predicted success with their pro model and maybe we'll see these other cams like a new pocket sooner.

Yeah the only problem I have with the ursa mini pro is the size/weight. But I think I will buy one anyway as it blows everything in the pricerange away. So I do not have hopes for anything similar in a smaller package from blackmagic(or any other brand) this year.