Christopher Doyle calls out The Academy over Oscar for Cinematography

[soupkitchen]

if you guys are curious about political comedic cinematography watch Coppola's ''Twixt'' by DP Mihai Malaimare Jr., and then you'll rethink about ''Life of Pi.''  it's blatant cinematography improvised at an amateur level.  don't let purist cinematographers fuel you young generation kats...nor follow the ''Oscars''...

 

leave Miranda alone.  all this ''chilean born'' propaganda or ''wizard'' look is just a blatant example of American hate or sub textual racism in media as always...

I don't care where he is born. I'm Australian. I don't like his work. I also don't think he deserved an Oscar. I don't think he was the person in control of the shots after they were lit and therefore he shouldn't be given credit for the final look of the film. I don't mean awards, I mean credit. Perhaps Chilean born is intended to indicate that he isn't Spanish, Mexican, Italian or anything else. There is nothing racist or sub-textual about that. And the wizard thing? Have you not learned that the internet is fairly conservative in its gender rolls, and also for a bunch of nerd guys who shoot camera tests, saying he looks like a wizard is unlikely to be genuinely pejorative?

 

Also I don't understand what you mean by 'blatant cinematography improvised at an amateur level'. Do you mean it is badly shot or do you mean they chose to shoot with an 'amateur', unpolished aesthetic that doesn't work for you? I would like a little clarification to understand your point as Coppola hasn't made a good film in 20 years and I'm not going to subject myself to this one to check it out ;)

 

Also, like I've said before, if you are going to make assertions about the real world of film making please put a link to your work or imdb page in your signature. It is nice to be able to give your pronouncements some context. Plus we are all here to learn and share.

[Sean Cunningham]

 

Also, like I've said before, if you are going to make assertions about the real world of film making please put a link to your work or imdb page in your signature. It is nice to be able to give your pronouncements some context. Plus we are all here to learn and share.

 

 

In case he's too modest, here you go:

 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4675381/

 

@ VIMEO

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Plft7Sf2cGcJ:www.joelleang.com/index.php%3Fp%3D1_4_About+&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/joelleang   

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYotqzqnTTI

 

http://youtu.be/nQnBu_-nPtA

[Sean Cunningham]

FYI, just got additional confirmation, Miranda was never involved at the facility during post production on PI.  All reviews of work were with Ang Lee, his editor and Bill Westenhofer, the R+H supervisor who got the shark at :45 on the program.  

 

So, there you go, all the really really cool shit that happens in the movie and in the trailer to get you to go see it, yeah, Miranda had nothing to do with that.  Doyle is calling him out likely working under the assumption, same as most people giving Miranda the benefit of the doubt, that he was there working with the VFX team creating the world of PI.  That, he doesn't consider cinematography.  

 

But it's worse than that, and this fact likely hasn't even crossed Christopher Doyle's mind.  I'm betting the notion that a whole team of people he'll never meet are going to step in to actually craft the look and feel of a film his name is attached to would make his head explode, or he just might find new and interesting ways to tell everyone to "fuck off."  That's what Miranda did.  

 

Other people crafted the film in his absence and he took credit for it.  He had that moment, that Brady Bunch or Growing Pains or Diff'rent Strokes moment to do the right thing and say, "shit, fellas, I was off playing X-Box or getting laid while these other guys finished the movie."  But he didn't, or at least hasn't yet.

[Leang]

FYI, just got additional confirmation, Miranda was never involved at the facility during post production on PI.  All reviews of work were with Ang Lee, his editor and Bill Westenhofer, the R+H supervisor who got the shark at :45 on the program.  

 

So, there you go, all the really really cool shit that happens in the movie and in the trailer to get you to go see it, yeah, Miranda had nothing to do with that.  Doyle is calling him out likely working under the assumption, same as most people giving Miranda the benefit of the doubt, that he was there working with the VFX team creating the world of PI.  That, he doesn't consider cinematography.  

 

But it's worse than that, and this fact likely hasn't even crossed Christopher Doyle's mind.  I'm betting the notion that a whole team of people he'll never meet are going to step in to actually craft the look and feel of a film his name is attached to would make his head explode, or he just might find new and interesting ways to tell everyone to "fuck off."  That's what Miranda did.  

 

Other people crafted the film in his absence and he took credit for it.  He had that moment, that Brady Bunch or Growing Pains or Diff'rent Strokes moment to do the right thing and say, "shit, fellas, I was off playing X-Box or getting laid while these other guys finished the movie."  But he didn't, or at least hasn't yet.

 

You might want to intern with a pro gaffer just to understand the importance of lighting and then re-look at Miranda's past on Fincher's films.  Gaffer's are dope.  So now Miranda in his later career takes full seat as a DP and knows how to execute 3D (which he has deserved as we're moving to more digital creative territory) and you complain with no pro set experience with lighting?

[markm]

FYI, just got additional confirmation, Miranda was never involved at the facility during post production on PI.  All reviews of work were with Ang Lee, his editor and Bill Westenhofer, the R+H supervisor who got the shark at :45 on the program.  

 

So, there you go, all the really really cool shit that happens in the movie and in the trailer to get you to go see it, yeah, Miranda had nothing to do with that.  Doyle is calling him out likely working under the assumption, same as most people giving Miranda the benefit of the doubt, that he was there working with the VFX team creating the world of PI.  That, he doesn't consider cinematography.  

 

But it's worse than that, and this fact likely hasn't even crossed Christopher Doyle's mind.  I'm betting the notion that a whole team of people he'll never meet are going to step in to actually craft the look and feel of a film his name is attached to would make his head explode, or he just might find new and interesting ways to tell everyone to "fuck off."  That's what Miranda did.  

 

Other people crafted the film in his absence and he took credit for it.  He had that moment, that Brady Bunch or Growing Pains or Diff'rent Strokes moment to do the right thing and say, "shit, fellas, I was off playing X-Box or getting laid while these other guys finished the movie."  But he didn't, or at least hasn't yet.

 

Although the oscar should have clearly gone to those who created the cinematography. Miranda is also in a difficult position. If he tells it how it is he makes the oscar judges look pretty stupid. Also the film itself has this oscar attached to it and could affect its sales and prestige.  The blame should be placed on the judges by the media Surely Miranda is feeling awful about this although I could be wrong but could be doing what most film makers do and protecting the industry. Would you turn on the Oscars if you were him? He must be thinking of the potential damage to not only his career but to the oscars hollywood and the film.

 

This is what I hate about film competions and opinions that are subjective from people who use this to destroy fairness.

 

I'd like to see a media campaign to get it changed to an oscar for the cinematography only and Miranda an opportunity to redefine it as such.

[soupkitchen]

You might want to intern with a pro gaffer just to understand the importance of lighting and then re-look at Miranda's past on Fincher's films. 

Ok Leang, a couple of things. And I mean this all in truly the most positive way I can.

I THINK what you are saying with this is that as a gaffer Miranda had a hand in the look of Fincher's previous films before he got a chance to shoot Benjamin Button with him. The only place you will find a gaffer having as much creative control as you assume is at film school or on a low budget film where the gaffer's experience vastly outweighs the DP's and they go about setting the lights as they see fit without input. I watched the trailer for your film. If you came to me and said the gaffer had a bigger hand with how your film is lit than the DP, I would tell you to fire the DP.

 

Harris Savides, Jordan Cronenweth and Darius Khondji are all DPs with recognisable personal styles that tend to transcend the film or director they are working with. Now while most DPs have preferred gaffers, they are still the person telling them what to light and often how to do it. More importantly, preferred gaffers learn what DPs like and can often pre-set lights in a particular dp's style, but that is different to being the creative force behind the lighting.

 

Also, seriously check Sean's IMDB page before lecturing him. Seriously. It makes you look bad, just firing off insults about experience when you have very little and he has lots. Even in the low budget digital film making, he's made more features than you so, think on that.

 

Cheers,

 

Toby

 

PS, I'd love to see your trailer with english subtitles to know what's going on. Also in the Bendeyar trailer and in the Ã‡anakkale Åžehitlerine (Erkan Mutlu) clip there is a whole lot of post softening going on with people's faces. Was that your call or someone else's. Full props for making a feature. I haven't. Yet ;)

[soupkitchen]

PPS. Don't be shy Leang, add your vimeo etc to your signature. You have some decent stuff and it's refreshing to see a vimeo page not just full of lens tests and all that crap.

[Leang]

Also, seriously check Sean's IMDB page before lecturing him. Seriously. It makes you look bad, just firing off insults about experience when you have very little and he has lots. Even in the low budget digital film making, he's made more features than you so, think on that.

 

What do you mean by ''made?''

[Andrew Reid]

OK enough of this shit. Back on topic please.

[Leang]

PPS. Don't be shy Leang, add your vimeo etc to your signature. You have some decent stuff and it's refreshing to see a vimeo page not just full of lens tests and all that crap.

 

I did before, but I like the one I have now!  

[Bruno]

most of you talk about cinematography as if you're ASC but let's be real...c'mon...let's be real...

Ever thought there's a remote chance some of the people here might actually know what they're talking about?

[markm]

Ever thought there's a remote chance some of the people here might actually know what they're talking about?

 

Some may know about certain things but there are certainly no ASC's that I know of here. Leang is probably the only person to have directed and made a feature film although I don't know how succesful and I guess that is the only measure you could use if you want to say I'm a professional so I'm right.. 

 

However it doesn't make you right on everything by default no matter how good you might be.

 

But then the forum isn't really about teaching Its more about a social site and news about the latest gear and some political comment on the world of film.

 

Andrew seems to be the only expert in bringing us news of new equipment and knowledge of consumer cameras. Often providing us with stuff to talk about. No one else is giving tutorials or advice in a professional capacity other than experience with consumer equipment.

 

If you are an expert Bruno then in what field and what are you offering as credentials?

[Sean Cunningham]

You might want to intern with a pro gaffer just to understand the importance of lighting and then re-look at Miranda's past on Fincher's films.  Gaffer's are dope.  So now Miranda in his later career takes full seat as a DP and knows how to execute 3D (which he has deserved as we're moving to more digital creative territory) and you complain with no pro set experience with lighting?

 

WTF are you talking about?  LOL, just say more random stuff that has nothing to do with what you're quoting or anything here.  It's comedic.

 

He was not there and not involved in the real crafting of PI.  How daft are you to not get that?  How presumptuous are you to lecture anyone?  

[Sean Cunningham]

What do you mean by ''made?''

 

Contributed to a couple billion dollars worth of other people's films.   I was cutting my teeth creating iconic imagery for James Cameron, only a year after being able to legally buy and drink liquor,  when you were still gnawing on your fudge-sickle, watching Howdy-Doody.  Within a year after that I was a co-supervising artist on his "alimony" project with Katheryn Bigelow and then a whole score of name brands.  Creating techniques.  Figuring it out.  That was my job.  To figure shit out.  Figuring you out, I could do that in my sleep.

 

Since then I've co-written, co-produced, co-created two features, shot one.   Did you write Bendeyar?  No.  Did you produce it?  No.  Did you shoot it?  No.   Did you raise the money for it?  No.  Did you put your hands on every single frame of it after it was done?  No.  Did you (co)design all of its supplemental art?  No.  Did you run off fresh out of school, no real experience in the industry to speak of, to a country with a few hundred theaters and your Columbia degree to play big fish in a tiny pond?  Could be....

 

I'm not going take anything away from you, Leang, in your feature debut as a hired director.  Only people who have actually made a feature know what it takes from us to do it.  But if you want to continue with your charade of experiential or artistic superiority to anyone here I will be so happy to oblige blowing you right the fuck out of the water.

 

I've created a damn sight more than you, boy.

[Sean Cunningham]

Some may know about certain things but there are certainly no ASC's that I know of here.

 

Nobody is claiming to be.  That's just some bullshit he said, implying that since nobody here is ASC then nobody here has any valid opinions.  He talks like he actually has a lot of experience doing...anything.

 

Leang is probably the only person to have directed and made a feature film

 

And you'd be wrong there.  I'm disappointed, Mark.  Or do you somehow respect one of the Coen Bros. more than the other, because only one of them sits in the director's chair?  That is the partnership I have in creating two features, beginning to end, hands on every single frame, creative partner in every single aspect (and not just the director's chair).  Distributed in markets around the globe and only at that point is one of these projects out of my hands or direct control.   And we're laying the groundwork now for a third, we just have so many more options and opportunities we want to pick the right one.

 

Maybe you should re-evaluate your assumptions about this process, Mark, and what it takes to make a feature length motion picture.  

 

 

although I don't know how succesful...

 

That's easy to find out.  Big ups to him for being a part of a low budget indie that actually finished and got a limited theatrical in Europe.  He enjoyed a healthy majority of available Turkish screens for a period and a screen or two (in Muslim neighborhoods I'm betting) for a week at a time or so in some other countries.  They might make their money back on home video deals.  

 

I've never seen statistics on the movie buying versus pirating habits of America-Haters to fully project...there's a lot of them out there though, all over, but he's at the same quandry as every other indie working outside the establishment with no marketing muscle: how do I get the word out about my film so people even know it exists?

[markm]

Sean I am happy to re evaluate my position. I didn't know you have made films only that you played a major role in big feature films special effects and a master in that area as far as I am concerned.

[Leang]

Lol. This isn't me. It's about some girls complaining about Miranda's work which none of us have control over. I'm pro Miranda. Eat it.

[Sean Cunningham]

Lol. This isn't me. It's about some girls complaining about Miranda's work which none of us have control over. I'm pro Miranda. Eat it.

 

That's an easy postion to take not knowing how this stuff actually works.  You and the Academy share something in common in that respect.  They don't understand this stuff any more than any other uninitiated.

 

I've got no complaints about his work.  Eat Drink...was a beautiful movie, that he actually shot, for instance.   I've got complaints about him getting credit where he didn't work.  He was not a participant in the crafting of the imagery of PI.  That's a simple fact.  That's what this thread is really about and the news that he now has an even more respected-than-himself peer calling him out for this farce and not just the VFX riff raff.  What's extra funny, to me, is that Doyle likely doesn't even realize he only knows half the fraud that went down Oscar night.

 

 

edit:  I'm not just quoting a story here for the schadenfreude.  These are people that I know that have been affected by this.  My brother, a lead artist (he's basically a department head) on PI , put in more time on that film than Claudio Miranda did.  This is a company that myself and brothers have all worked now.  This is a company that I've followed since its inception in the late 1980s, since I was still in high school teaching myself how to do what they did so well.  This is something I have a personal interest in.  It's a firm and people I have made a personal investment in and who did the same with me.

[Sean Cunningham]

Sean I am happy to re evaluate my position. I didn't know you have made films only that you played a major role in big feature films special effects and a master in that area as far as I am concerned.

 

And FX is the only area I'll (currently) claim any expertise in (check back in ten years or so and it'll be a different story).  I'm pretty good in other areas but they are still very much works in progress.  I'm the first to admit that.  It doesn't mean I won't have strong opinions about other areas though.

 

I'm fully aware that I know less about these cameras than someone like Andrew, and so I keep tabs on his stories and this site.  I know I know less about lenses than someone like Tony, or Rich, amongst a few others, and so I keep an eye on what they say.   Shian is an excellent source of information on grading and lighting.   It's unfortunate that the only other person here (that I'm aware of) with independent feature experience has nothing to say that I'm interested in and nothing for me to learn from.  I only respect him for having the guts and ability to see a project through to the end, which is exceedingly rare.  

 

For every finished independent feature that gets any form of exhibition or chance at reaching an audience there are scores that never will, that are finished and sitting in a closet somewhere.  There's likely ten times or more beyond this that never made it through post production and likely ten times beyond this that never even get through principal photography.   Whether I like what he does or has to say, at least on this point, he has my full respect.

[Andrew Reid]

Leang and Mark sorry to be blunt but your ignorance astounds me on so many levels.

 

The logic of the argument is what matters, and the judgement & talent of the person making the argument.

 

There's no other creative industry where talent is trumped by some weird class order, as if having ASC after your name makes a mediocre talent great and 'ignore the rest'. There are people with experience who I don't respect, because I don't rate their work, their art, their taste, their world view and what they have to say. Doesn't matter if they are an ASC or not.

 

Doyle is not a career filmmaker, he only cares about the cinematography. If only more people were focussed on that, on understanding, refining and generally getting on with it - rather than climbing a career ladder. It wouldn't happen in the music industry. With music nobody sneers at a talented guitarist because he isn't part of the RIAA. It's the creativity, stupid. In the movie industry talent somehow takes a back seat to bullshit. It's weird.

 

And it isn't just about the attitude, if Doyle wasn't a genius behind the camera, his attitude would carry no sway with me.

 

Sean's work here could have any level of standing at all and I'd still admire it as the artistic achievement it is.

 

I respect people based on what they do, not 'who they are'. Maybe because I am a doer, and more interested in doing stuff than bullshitting around it.