Christopher Doyle calls out The Academy over Oscar for Cinematography

[mtheory]

Hello everyone, a long time poster from the shuttled Cinema5D forums here, this is my first post.

 

The tension between DOPs and VFX Supervisors has been heating up for the past decade as Hollywood shifted more into more blockbusters with movies like Spider-man, Matrix, LOTR, 300, Avatar increasingly inviting VFX supes to come in and take over the duty creating the "look and feel" of shots, sequences and whole sections of the movies from DOPs, who are understandably getting pissed for being pushed out of the creative process.

 

Is it good or bad? I don't know...when I look at "In The Mood For Love" by Chris Doyle I see amazing cinematography. But I can say the same thing about "300" or "Life of Pi", films with cinematography created almost completely by VFX. Both have incredible attention to detail, mood, color, contrast, light and shadow. 

 

And now Hollywood sees them as equal too. Cinematography is now officially a combination of real world and digital techniques.

 

DOPs will either have to accept that they are not as important to the process as before, or evolve their creative control into the post production because their purely photographic skills are not enough to deliver beautiful cinematography anymore.

 

Guys like Doyle are going to be increasingly marginalized, so I have a lot of sympathy for old school wolves like him.

 

Deakins was robbed.

 

 

P.S - BTW, I've been a fan of Miranda starting from his commercials with Fincher and think Benjamin Button had Oscar worthy cinematography. Claudio actually hangs out alot on various indie forums and might actually read this post, so let's take it easy, the guy is an absolute kickass DP too.

[mtheory]

Sean's argument is more logical.

 

Leang's work is better lit.

 

1:1 guys, okay? :)

[Bruno]

The tension between DOPs and VFX Supervisors has been heating up for the past decade as Hollywood shifted more into more blockbusters with movies like Spider-man, Matrix, LOTR, 300, Avatar increasingly inviting VFX supes to come in and take over the duty creating the "look and feel" of shots, sequences and whole sections of the movies from DOPs, who are understandably getting pissed for being pushed out of the creative process.

DOPs will either have to accept that they are not as important to the process as before, or evolve their creative control into the post production because their purely photographic skills are not enough to deliver beautiful cinematography anymore.

 

They both have their places, but the process has changed and they've been slow to adapt.

 

All the work done by post facilities was usually handled by the VFX Supervisor, and that's what everyone expected from them, including directors and producers, however the role of the VFX facilities has grown a lot lately, not only in the scale of the projects but in how early they get involved in the process. Lately VFX facilities design action sequences from the ground up, while main unit hasn't even began scouting for locations, and during this stage it's all about shots and filmmaking, it makes all the sense to have the DP involved, and it's not even about lighting yet...

 

Recently I've seen DPs getting more involved with tasks such as previs, and the VFX sups staying away in order to focus in the visual effects side of things, which is what they should be doing really.

[jgharding]

A lot of these analyses assume that the world of film is going one way: to VFX driven pieces. None of my favorites last year included many VFX at all, just small things to compliment good storytelling. I'm not interested in big CG blockbusters. I'll watch then if a friend torrents them, but I wouldn't even make that effort myself, let alone sell an organ for a cinema ticket in order to get a sterescopically induced headache. 

 

Give me a film like The Hunt or The Master though, and I'll be at the cinema every time. One Alexa one 65mm. Both awesome to look at.

[markm]

I agree JG I think VFX films from beginning to end are a novelty that will wear off. I love special effects that propel the story but not the other way round. i really looked forward to watching clash of the titans and if you watch 5 mins of it it is spectacular but watching the whole film I was looking for the exit. There is nothing better than seeing real stunts to grip you to the edge of your seat. Or amazing music Camera work Lighting or even sound.

 

I'd love to see X files find its stride which I don't think the previous films ever did.

[mtheory]

@Bruno : Did you know that in Hollywood DPs are not paid for any of their time while collaborating with VFX guys ( Unlike directors )? Yep, in the current system their cheques stop the moment production ends, that's one of the reasons working against DPs now. Recently in "Total Recall" key action sequences were basically directed/dp's by the VFX guys in pre-viz and the camera movements went into the movie practically unchanged from the animatic. 

 

@jgharding / @markm : Unfortunately most arthouse films are failures at the box office, - my own top 10 arthouse films have horrible box office results. ( Except "Pulp Fiction" ) It's the massive VFX blockbusters with 3000+ screen releases that are actually keeping the industry afloat and constantly on the cutting edge of technology. Since Hollywood is a business we will probably be seeing more Avatars, Avengers and Hobbits, not less.

 

Hopefully the VOD market will let indies flourish.

[Bruno]

A lot of these analyses assume that the world of film is going one way: to VFX driven pieces.

 

I didn't want to assume or imply that at all, but we're talking about the problems faced by the large VFX facilities, and those are directly related to their work in large VFX movies.

 

I'm all up for non VFX movies, I'm not a fan of VFX movies just for the sake it, I've actually worked on a few "big" movies that I haven't even watched and probably never will, but today with the digital age we're bound to have digital post work done to every single frame of a film, regardless of its scale, so it's good for everyone if this industry and these post facilities are running smoothly.

 

The large VFX facilities live off large VFX blockbuster work, but they always have a few smaller film projects going on the side, usually at cost, to establish relationships with directors, etc. We can't ignore the importance of large commercial films in keeping this industry running, it would be much harder for independent art house films to succeed without the infrastructures created maintained by the big guys.

 

Look at Duncan Jones' Moon for instance, it was made for a ridiculously low budget and yet it was shot at the same studio as some large blockbusters and had VFX done by one of the large VFX companies in London. Without those infrastructures it would have been impossible to make with that budget, but they cleverly used everyone's downtime periods to their advantage.

[markm]

@jgharding / @markm : Unfortunately most arthouse films are failures at the box office, - my own top 10 arthouse films have horrible box office results. ( Except "Pulp Fiction" ) It's the massive VFX blockbusters with 3000+ screen releases that are actually keeping the industry afloat and constantly on the cutting edge of technology. Since Hollywood is a business we will probably be seeing more Avatars, Avengers and Hobbits, not less.

 

Hopefully the VOD market will let indies flourish.

mtheory Yes I agree But I also think there has been a shortage of up and coming high quality actors because who needs name actors in VFX films. I also think people will get fed up and want a more tradditional type of film If a young harrison ford made a film along the indiana jones line I thinlk it would be a box office success. yes I know a lot of SFX but not the wall to wall covering we are getting now.

 

Bring back actors!

[Sean Cunningham]

And yes, in the majority of projects (especially commercials and small gigs) the DoP is nowhere to be found in post. But you can't just categorically claim to know what was done in another project, in another post house, with a completely different crew. Unless you were there.

 

No, you don't know what happened on this project.  You haven't even read this thread.  If you had you could have saved yourself some effort here to be relevant.  I'm the only one in this thread not engaging in pure speculation.

 

edit: and of course Leang likes your post because he thinks everyone else just reads about stuff other people do like him.

[Sean Cunningham]

The large VFX facilities live off large VFX blockbuster work, but they always have a few smaller film projects going on the side, usually at cost, to establish relationships with directors, etc. We can't ignore the importance of large commercial films in keeping this industry running, it would be much harder for independent art house films to succeed without the infrastructures created maintained by the big guys.

 

Large VFX facilities can't live off large VFX blockbusters, actually.  These are taken on for the prestige.  Large VFX blockbusters likely cost a VFX facility to be a part of.  Yeah, they're expensive, but not for the studios.

 

Success in the VFX business is breaking even.  You can extend this to success for a vendor in Hollywood is breaking even.  Historically the bigger facilities not subsidized by giant corporations or otherwise not bound to the same financial pressures as a standalone facility (ie. Sony Pictures Imageworks and ILM, companies with higher overhead than they bring in) have to keep their doors open by taking on work that's actually profitable.  

 

Both R+H and Digital Domain, prior to recent problems, had their doors kept open by having a very active commercials division, with a separate staff from features.  DD would have shuttered its doors after Titanic, most likely, if it hadn't been for the profitability of its commercial division.  R+H as well was kept afloat by this business which allowed it to take on feature work.  Sony has tried repeatedly to get rid of Imageworks because it's a money sinkhole with no chance of being profitable.  Lucas too, once he started to ramp down his interest in making more films, packaged up ILM, moved it to the city and started looking for potential buyers, because even they are more overhead than they can be bringing in.

 

VFX for motion pictures has pretty much always been a bad business to be in if your idea was to generate revenue.  And so everyone is looking to create their own content.  Perhaps a trade organization will improve things but it's pretty clear that content ownership is the only way to actually do better than squeak by or luck out and have a good year in the black.

[mtheory]

There's also a culture in Hollywood of screwing over VFX firms with a common saying among producers : "I haven't done my job if I haven't bankrupted a VFX studio." I hope the VFX guys get their union and stop underbidding each other. 

[markm]

There's also a culture in Hollywood of screwing over VFX firms with a common saying among producers : "I haven't done my job if I haven't bankrupted a VFX studio." I hope the VFX guys get their union and stop underbidding each other. 

That's disgusting.

 

I don't think VFX firms can realistically stop undercutting But what they can do as a collective is boycott producers who say stuff like that and make future deals for proper recognition on work done, so the oscar fiasco can never happen again.  They could also make deals to win contracts and share work.

[jgharding]

@jgharding / @markm : Unfortunately most arthouse films are failures at the box office, - my own top 10 arthouse films have horrible box office results. ( Except "Pulp Fiction" ) It's the massive VFX blockbusters with 3000+ screen releases that are actually keeping the industry afloat and constantly on the cutting edge of technology. Since Hollywood is a business we will probably be seeing more Avatars, Avengers and Hobbits, not less.

 

Hopefully the VOD market will let indies flourish.

 

An undeniable fact, and the reason I'm happy to ignore most of what they pump out! Personally I don't want to watch their films, work for them, or really have anything to do with them, so I'm kinda happy this way! :)

[Bruno]

Even though western civilization marketing campaigns consist entirely of Hollywood blockbusters, there's still way more independent and art house films than there are blockbusters, by a huge margin, so there's no need to worry really. :)

 

I'd be happy with one of these every year, but it might be asking for too much!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ngxn9NzLzs

[Sean Cunningham]

There's also a culture in Hollywood of screwing over VFX firms with a common saying among producers : "I haven't done my job if I haven't bankrupted a VFX studio." I hope the VFX guys get their union and stop underbidding each other. 

 

Pretty sure that was that dick Rich Thorn, when that tool was post production supervisor at FOX.  Or someone like him.

[Sean Cunningham]

Even though western civilization marketing campaigns consist entirely of Hollywood blockbusters, there's still way more independent and art house films than there are blockbusters, by a huge margin, so there's no need to worry really. :)

 

I'd be happy with one of these every year, but it might be asking for too much!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ngxn9NzLzs

 

 

Also, when they win big, they win bigger than the majors, who have sometimes an order of magnitude more to recoup before the accountants go into overtime trying to prove the year's biggest blockbuster was a turkey that lost the studio money.

 

Hollywood still turns out the occasional, exceptional piece of work that can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with any artistic, independent narrative.  But that's something that happens under their noses and isn't by design, thanks to auteurs working within the system who have the rare ability to Jedi-Mind-Trick the banksters dressed as moguls and keep their films so cheap, on time and on budget the Studio just lets them do what they do.

[hmcindie]

No, you don't know what happened on this project.  You haven't even read this thread.  If you had you could have saved yourself some effort here to be relevant.  I'm the only one in this thread not engaging in pure speculation.

 

edit: and of course Leang likes your post because he thinks everyone else just reads about stuff other people do like him.

 

But you weren't there. You were not actually inside Rhythm and Hues while they were doing previz or the final composites or the grading. 

 

Granted I haven't been there either but I just think it's a bit over-the-top in complaining that the DoP did absolutely nothing. We did a grade for a feature film and that grade is not really the colorists own version either. The director and DoP were sitting right behind him and making demands. There is always someone who has the "vision" about what the shot should be like. Sometimes it's the DP, sometimes the director, sometimes the vfx guys. I have edited a lot of stuff and I can very rarely say that "this cut here is my choice". The director is the guy I answer to and usually they have a completely different style than I have. 

 

Complaining that I haven't read the thread? I have and it's ridiculous. So what am I missing?

[soupkitchen]

hmcindie I think you missed the bit where Sean said he talked to friends and colleagues who were there at R&H which is why he keeps re-stating that he isn't engaging in speculation.

 

I understand your point about vision but I've also done TVCs as a motion GFX artist where the entire vision was mine and the director just said, great.

 

Is there any way this thread could just be shut down Andrew? It's bringing the whole site down a level or two.

[Leang]

where the entire vision was mine and the director just said, great.

 

Is this your philosophy as to how Directors like Ang Lee work?  Because we're specifically talking about ''Life of Pi.''

 

Do you have a clip or name of the project you're referring to?

[markm]

I'm not a hollywood film maker and with little money But If I get my film off the ground This is how I will work. I will need a Visual effects supervisor who could also create the SFX preferably.

 

Although it would be collaberation so looking for someone in a similar position to mine We would then  go through the script together and plan exactly how we will shoot for the effects. Then on the shoot to overlook the relevent shots for plates, greenscreen along with the rest of my team.

 

Once the film is done I would use  a post house to create the right look for colour correction. Although I would want to oversee the whole process they are artists with years of experience who will create my vision. If they have ideas they may very well change my mind on anything and everything.