Christopher Doyle calls out The Academy over Oscar for Cinematography

[soupkitchen]

Is this your philosophy as to how Directors like Ang Lee work?  Because we're specifically talking about ''Life of Pi.''

 

Do you have a clip or name of the project you're referring to?

Did you read my post Leang? Did you read the post it was referring to? Do you understand that I was referring to one sentence in the previous post?

 

You have done a hell of a lot of NOT specifically talking about Life of Pi in this thread and I think it is a little late for you to try and take the high road here.

 

If anyone wants to respond to anything I've said in this thread, just PM me please. I'm not bothering to check it any more. That includes you Leang.

[hmcindie]

hmcindie I think you missed the bit where Sean said he talked to friends and colleagues who were there at R&H which is why he keeps re-stating that he isn't engaging in speculation.

 

True I seemed to have missed that point. Still. Talking to friends and colleagues is all well and good but there were hundreds of people doing VFX work on "Life of Pi". Even if the DoP had gone through stuff with a VFX Supervisor, you could still work months on that film and never talk to anyone higher up.

[Leang]

I guess all fortune 500 CEO's or lower executive officers must literally walk into other departments so that the company's general employees don't post on forums and complain that their executive officers aren't "printing" the important documents that drive the company...

[Axel]

What VFX slaves tell each other in a bar may be gossip. There may be films in which VFX supervisors instruct the camera operators and gaffers to finish their compositional elements to this or that specifications, reducing them to uncreative technicians. As I tried to say earlier, these VFX people then follow the advise of the production designer, whose work had been approved by the director, and so, whereas they indeed did the finishing of the image as seen by the audience, their contributions were reproductional as well.

We simply can't tell how much the DOPs work in Pi shaped the final look. Imho if the real scenes blend perfectly in the CGI work, that speaks for successful teamwork and is an achievement worth acknowledging.

[mtheory]

This was DOPs work.

 

 

This was VFX Supe's work with Director's comments.

 

 

 

 

Giving Miranda sole credit for a collaborative effort is wrong. He should've at least invited the VFX supe up on the stage to share the award with.

 

And Doyle could probably kick both of their asses by shooting all of this in-camera.

 

I know the crazy bastard could do it.  :D

[Bruno]

Watch "The Fall" and remember there are no VFX in it, it's all real locations shot in camera, and then explain to me why Life of Pi got an Oscar for best cinematography and "The Fall" wasn't even nominated when it came out...

[Leang]

What VFX slaves tell each other in a bar may be gossip. There may be films in which VFX supervisors instruct the camera operators and gaffers to finish their compositional elements to this or that specifications, reducing them to uncreative technicians. As I tried to say earlier, these VFX people then follow the advise of the production designer, whose work had been approved by the director, and so, whereas they indeed did the finishing of the image as seen by the audience, their contributions were reproductional as well.

We simply can't tell how much the DOPs work in Pi shaped the final look. Imho if the real scenes blend perfectly in the CGI work, that speaks for successful teamwork and is an achievement worth acknowledging.

 

A lot pros in the VFX sector of course are going to love this sensitive gossip.  Of course the Academy is going to shut down a commercial speech from a post house that's having financial issues.  Think about the politics!?  Imagine how many post houses would start an even bigger fiasco towards the Academy for letting R&H promote themselves because they're having financial issues.  The Academy did the right thing an being neutral towards the situation.  Yes it's sad, VFX workers getting downsized, but that's not the Academy's fault.  It's  whoever's managing sales and marketing at said post houses.  There's more revenue in commercials so to blame the ''film'' industry is stupid.  R&H won an Oscar.  That's a huge win for that house.  Now it's time to flaunt it again and go stronger with past, current and new clients.  

 

Regarding Doyle he's got nothing to lose since most of his treasured work is overseas and patronizing American culture in which 'Lincoln' has no real American historic value...or is he sub textually hating on the cinematography for that as well because it was shot on film...these are all ''who knows?''  could have ''Lady In The Water'' been visually better had Miranda approached it?  Who knows...

 

What's the point of talking about dynamic range or raw in the digital domain - camera's that strive for the film look - and then dismiss its ''processing'' technology by simply stating that the real ''crafting'' is in post.  My point is the DoP, lighting and the camera.  I personally loved the look of Tron on the big screen because that's what I expected it to be since I also loved the original.

 

I think the problem starts with people thinking that lighting schemes are all the same.  This is why I mentioned earlier that gaffers are dope.

 

But there are even better Oscar politics and gossip such as when Brando was being the pimp that he was!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QUacU0I4yU

[Bruno]

Yes it's sad, VFX workers getting downsized, but that's not the Academy's fault.  It's  whoever's managing sales and marketing at said post houses.

 

Sales and marketing at VFX houses? Seriously?

[Leang]

Sales and marketing at VFX houses? Seriously?

. Yeah you know an individual that works at a company that's responsible for "spreading the word" about their company to obtain new customers and clients. If you're telling me these tandardized protocols don't exist then no wonder VFX houses are going under! Lol.

[Axel]

But there are even better Oscar politics and gossip such as when Brando was being the pimp that he was!

 

That was fun, I didn't know.

 

It reminds me, seemingly somewhat far-fetched, of this open letter to James Cameron. His Avatar did win the VFX Oscar. The film paraphrases the injustice 'white man' did to the 'native americans'. It shows and condemns the greed and low values of our culture. And yet, the very individuals working hard to make this film the first rate visual experience (and box office success) it was, were treated like the poor seamstresses in the beginning of the industrial revolution. And Cameron remained silent. A shame.

[Andrew Reid]

. Yeah you know an individual that works at a company that's responsible for "spreading the word" about their company to obtain new customers and clients. If you're telling me these tandardized protocols don't exist then no wonder VFX houses are going under! Lol.

 

It is actually the movie studios who are responsible for bankrupting post houses. There are many doing their jobs well for the movie studios and getting the best deals on VFX jobs. The houses are competing against each other and there are a lot of them. The rates tumble and the studio gets a great deal, the VFX house not so much. It is nothing to do with the management of the VFX house. They have to compete on price, and then at the same time, produce a masterpiece like Lie of Pi which is incredibly labour intensive.

[Leang]

and then at the same time, produce a masterpiece like Lie of Pi which is incredibly labour intensive.

do you think this masterpiece would have had the same fate had Doyle or any other shot it, and if many think yes, would that be "pure speculation?". its normal to fumble a ball

[Bruno]

. Yeah you know an individual that works at a company that's responsible for "spreading the word" about their company to obtain new customers and clients. If you're telling me these tandardized protocols don't exist then no wonder VFX houses are going under! Lol.

 

You show a huge lack of understanding regarding the VFX studios' situation for someone who won't stop speaking about it.

 

The main VFX facilities only have 5 clients (Warner, Fox, Sony, Paramount, Disney), they don't need marketing people telling their own 5 clients they exist. The fact there's only 5 serious clients in the industry is also one of their problems, since they obviously don't want to upset any of them by denying to work with them or asking for extra money to pay for the extra work they hadn't bid on.

 

If you only had 5 possible clients and they all worked with you regularly, would you create a "sales and marketing" department to tell your 5 clients about the work you do for them? Don't be ridiculous.

[Bruno]

do you think this masterpiece would have had the same fate had Doyle or any other shot it, and if many think yes, would that be "pure speculation?". its normal to fumble a ball

 

That's not the point, but at the same time you contradict yourself. You're probably right, the film would probably turn out exactly the same regardless of who the DP was, THAT'S WHY IT'S NOT WORTHY OF A CINEMATOGRAPHY OSCAR. No one here criticized his work on it, but the academy's choice to award him, and his failure to mention the VFX team.

[Leang]

If you only had 5 possible clients and they all worked with you regularly, would you create a "sales and marketing" department to tell your 5 clients about the work you do for them? Don't be ridiculous.

You're saying R&H only had/has/have five clients worldwide? You're making it a big deal in understanding several positions to help acquire more business. Doesn't R&H provide commercial work services for let's say the many ad agencies? Or are R&H only exclusively in filmmaking to these 5 companies you mention with penalties for more business? Am I understand you right? weird shit if you ask me. I guess we should be thankful projects like Life of Pi provide such work...

[Leang]

The film would probably turn out exactly the same regardless of who the DP was.

that's cute.

[Bruno]

You're saying R&H only had/has/have five clients worldwide?

 

That's right. The same 5 clients, and the exact same 5 for every other VFX facility.

 

Commercials are usually different departments, sometimes even different companies from a legal standpoint, but the present VFX issues we're talking about are mostly directed to the film side of the industry, though the artists are probably the same and get affected by the same conditions.

[Bruno]

I guess we should be thankful projects like Life of Pi provide such work...

 

We should be thankful if projects like Life of Pi actually PAID for such work, it's what you need to understand if you care to listen. VFX companies are putting their resources and companies at stake finishing projects like this at cost or loss, they should be considered co-producers and get a cut of the profits. Most stars do, and VFX is the star in most blockbusters you see out there, why not treat those companies accordingly?

[Andrew Reid]

I guess we should be thankful projects like Life of Pi provide such work...

 

Thankful for what? That the amount of work required bankrupts your company?

 

Logic isn't your strong point Leang.

 

If Hollywood wants the VFX community to flourish they need to loosen the purse strings.

[Leang]

Logic isn't your strong point Leang.

Pretty generalized statement, so I'll second that and say that "British Filmmaking" isn't your strong point, Reid. Compared to my background from yours is no "speculation" either. Know better than to insult PEOPLE directly as many of you here do vs. generic debate. Follow Philip Bloom's advice and shoot material that matters before describing some make believe authority. You should lock the thread as others have mentioned. Mixed opinions are normal, and let's be realistic and acknowledge others in filmmaking, especially those on your site that have evidence of work, or is that not good enough for you personally?

Sorry if I offend others but anybody can read that I'm just for the Oscar and move on. Don't be so analytical about it or insult others directly. I guess Doyle is God in this thread and Miranda knows nothing about the process and VFX heads have all the right answers (regarding the topic).

For those forum haters on me directly let me just say that I love you guys so much I think I'll go roller blade in circles near a green screen and sing.