Ken Ross Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 How is that color bleed? Why do some magnify an image beyond what anyone would watch, see changes in a color because of either reflections or some part of the image is in shadows, and then blame it on the camera. Does anyone really think that their customers would actually notice this and blame it on the videographer or camera? I guess never having been a pixel peeper, I just don't think that way. If the image looks good the way I'd normally view it, I'm good to go. If the image begins to break down, magnifying it 3-5X greater or more than I'd ever view it, I really couldn't care less. There are times I think some just look for issues, real or imagined. Fritz Pierre and Juank 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photographer-at-large Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Simon Shasha said: ....What makes it look terrible is the not-so-smooth gradation - it's sharp edged, blocky..... Thank you for explaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Shasha Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 5 minutes ago, Ken Ross said: How is that color bleed? Why do some magnify an image beyond what anyone would watch, see changes in a color because of either reflections or some part of the image is in shadows, and then blame it on the camera. Does anyone really think that their customers would actually notice this and blame it on the videographer or camera? I guess never having been a pixel peeper, I just don't think that way. If the image looks good the way I'd normally view it, I'm good to go. If the image begins to break down, magnifying it 3-5X greater or more than I'd ever view it, I really couldn't care less. There are times I think some just look for issues, real or imagined. I didn't magnify anything. That is its native 4K resolution... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Ross Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 The point is I don't think we're seeing anything that's the result of an in-camera breakdown of the codec. This looks entirely normal for anything that's showing a slightly different coloration as the result of a difference in lighting caused by shadows or reflections. Juank and deezid 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Shasha Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 This is a breakdown in the codec. You want to portray it as something else, that's up to you. I am seeing it all over the place, even when I grade the image very lightly. And if you grade at 100%, like I do, you will even see it in the ungraded image. My Blackmagic Pocket and Micro do not suffer from this. Regardless, I'm brand agnostic. When I see shit, I'll call it out. What I am seeing here is a shit codec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Ross Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 You convinced me, the GH5 outputs a crap image. Order cancelled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Shasha Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Wasn't trying to convince you of anything. I was simply stating and posting my findings. I couldn't care less what camera you, or anyone else, buys. As I stated above, the sensor is great, colours are great, 10bit is great, but the 150Mbps codec for 4K 10bit is just too much compression. If you don't require a superior codec, such as ProRes, or prefer smoother gradations, by all means, go for the GH5. I may well keep my own pre-order strictly for live-event work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezid Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 25 minutes ago, Simon Shasha said: This is a breakdown in the codec. You want to portray it as something else, that's up to you. I am seeing it all over the place, even when I grade the image very lightly. And if you grade at 100%, like I do, you will even see it in the ungraded image. My Blackmagic Pocket and Micro do not suffer from this. Regardless, I'm brand agnostic. When I see shit, I'll call it out. What I am seeing here is a shit codec. The Codec defintely didn't break up, the colorgrading did! Look at my example: Ken Ross 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Shasha Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, deezid said: The Codec defintely didn't break up, the colorgrading did! Look at my example: Did you add grain? Also, show me 100% 4K render. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezid Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Simon Shasha said: Did you add grain? Also, show me 100% 4K render. Added grain and blur actually. Not a big fan of the digital look this camera produces using sharpening: 0 As for full 4k, download original Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Shasha Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Just now, deezid said: Added grain and blur actually. Not a big fan of the digital look this camera produces using sharpening: 0 As for full 4k, download original I thought so. Grain tends to hide rough gradations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezid Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Just now, Simon Shasha said: I thought so. Grain tends to hide rough gradations. That's why I would never use any noise reduction or sharpening in the first place. Basically you have lots of fine grain on any professional camera, even the BM ones. It helps a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Shasha Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, deezid said: That's why I would never use any noise reduction or sharpening in the first place. Basically you have lots of fine grain on any professional camera, even the BM ones. It helps a lot. Indeed. Whenever I shoot 8bit DSLR, I always use grain to dither the 8bit compression and poor gradation. Works well. Nothing like a true 10bit image with a great codec, though. My Micro and Pocket are really making me second-guess the two GH5 pre-orders I have. Not sure the 400Mbps ALL-I can fix this. Hope so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezid Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Simon Shasha said: Indeed. Whenever I shoot 8bit DSLR, I always use grain to dither the 8bit compression and poor gradation. Works well. Nothing like a true 10bit image with a great codec, though. My Micro and Pocket are really making me second-guess the two GH5 pre-orders I have. Not sure the 400Mbps ALL-I can fix this. Hope so. It seems like every of these clips used internal noise reduction and sharpening at 0 or even worse. So I think the problem isn't there when setting the camera up properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stab Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 I've realised that when I turn IBIS on with the option E-stabilization, that there is a fair amount of cropping going on. In the manual says this 'might induce cropping', so that means it doesn't happen to anyone. Does this happen because I use non-compatible lenses with a Speed Booster? I've tried setting a different focal length as the input, but it doesn't make any difference. Also, the anti-shake stabilzation with the hand symbol, actually does seem to work and without any additional crop. Does it matter which focal length I set for input for the anti-shake stabilization? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dude_ger Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Boom, you ve seen the Speedbooster trick on Facebook? Just start it in green mode, and a sigma for example is completely useable. Zooming, focus and all the other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Ross Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 6 hours ago, Stab said: I've realised that when I turn IBIS on with the option E-stabilization, that there is a fair amount of cropping going on. In the manual says this 'might induce cropping', so that means it doesn't happen to anyone. Does this happen because I use non-compatible lenses with a Speed Booster? I've tried setting a different focal length as the input, but it doesn't make any difference. Also, the anti-shake stabilzation with the hand symbol, actually does seem to work and without any additional crop. Does it matter which focal length I set for input for the anti-shake stabilization? You asked that same question in another thread. It's the same way on the G85 with exactly the same notation in the manual, some cropping when E-stabilization is invoked. I'd suspect, based on how E-stabilization works by sensor cropping, it would do this with all lenses. In my case, this is even with native lenses. To be honest, I haven't seen a significant difference between IBIS2 and then adding E-stabilization on top of that. It may work differently on the GH5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stab Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 43 minutes ago, Ken Ross said: You asked that same question in another thread. It's the same way on the G85 with exactly the same notation in the manual, some cropping when E-stabilization is invoked. I'd suspect, based on how E-stabilization works by sensor cropping, it would do this with all lenses. In my case, this is even with native lenses. To be honest, I haven't seen a significant difference between IBIS2 and then adding E-stabilization on top of that. It may work differently on the GH5. Hi Ken, thanks again. Yea I asked something similar because it's still not really clear to me. When you turn the anti-shake function on, with the hand-symbol, is that actually the anticipated IBIS system? And E-stabilization just some extra feature that is like an inbuild warp-stabilizer? Or is e-stabilization the IBIS that everyone was stoked for? And IBIS2 means a combination of IBIS and Lens stabilization? Do I have it correct now? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Ross Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Stab said: Hi Ken, thanks again. Yea I asked something similar because it's still not really clear to me. When you turn the anti-shake function on, with the hand-symbol, is that actually the anticipated IBIS system? And E-stabilization just some extra feature that is like an inbuild warp-stabilizer? Or is e-stabilization the IBIS that everyone was stoked for? And IBIS2 means a combination of IBIS and Lens stabilization? Do I have it correct now? :D Stab, yes, you're largely correct. When you see the hand (sounds scary ;)), that is the IBIS, sensor-based system. If you couple that with a Panasonic OIS lens that is equipped to work with IBIS, then you get the IBIS2 and "DUAL 2" shows up in your VF/LCD. DUAL 2 is simply IBIS2...not sure why they don't call it that. Now adding e-stabilization is an additional electronic (not sensor-based stabilization) that lays over the IBIS. That's where the sensor cropping occurs. You'll have to see if the cropping vs the additional stabilization is worth it. At least as it's implemented in the G85, I don't see much of a difference with E-stabilization. The good thing is there's no IQ deterioration with it engaged. Stab 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stab Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Great. Thanks for the explanation Ken. That clears it up. I will do some tests next week to how the IBIS influences my shots. I am using a Sigma 18-35 on a Speed Booster XL so it becomes a 11.5-22.4mm. Do you guys think i need to manually change the focal length input everytime I zoom in or out? Or do you think that a middle ground setting, let's say 17mm would provide decent results? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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