No Joke - RAW 4K on the 5D Mark III

[Andrew Reid]

PLEEEASE SOMEBODY try the 10bit and 12bit at 4K

All this 3K stuff looks great though.

[hmcindie]

1 hour ago, tigerbengal said:

Hi Mercer.....if you are going to film in two weeks...do not use ml raw yet....it will be a nightmare for you, believe me, you need to know exactly what you are doing.,,

Eh? It's really not that hard. A) Fast and big CF cards and B) station to offload material and back them up.

It's like shooting with any RAW camera.

[mercer]

25 minutes ago, hmcindie said:

Eh? It's really not that hard. A) Fast and big CF cards and B) station to offload material and back them up.

It's like shooting with any RAW camera.

I actually don't have a choice but to shoot with it. The only other camera I own now is the D5500. And although I love the image out of that camera... I'm not going to shoot a short on it when I have a Raw capable camera lying about. I'll just make sure I have 4 or 5 batteries, 3 or 4 64GB cards and my MacBook Air with me to offload the files if needed. It's only going to be a 3-5 minute, mostly silent, short. So I am preparing it in such a way that I am shooting a 3:1 shot ratio. 

[hyalinejim]

@mercer You'll be fine!

Here are some tips for when things go wrong:

• Sometimes the camera will try to record to the SD card instead of the CF card, which only gives a few seconds of recording. Make sure you have "preferred card" in the menu set to CF
• If the camera locks up or starts misbehaving, turn it off and pop the battery
• After turning it off, wait until the red light stops flashing before you pop the cards out (like, two seconds)
• Keep a copy of the ML build files on your laptop in case you change settings and can't remember how to change them back

 

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

PLEEEASE SOMEBODY try the 10bit and 12bit at 4K

No joy there, I'm afraid.

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=18443.msg181620#msg181620

Quote

the routines can accept raw image streams of arbitrary bit depths (10/12/14/16).........doesn't appear to improve compression ratio at all

[Filipe Samora]

So after a few hours playing around with A1ex's second release of the 1.1.3 firmware, here's what I'm getting with 14bit lossless option:

3520 x 1320 = max. 1314 frames - ISO within 200-400 range - scales up to UHD with no perceived loss of quality

4096 x 1862 = max. 507 frames @ 12.5 fps - Not sure how useful this would be for landscape work or slow shots. Again ISO within 200-400 range.

Previews: At the moment, not fantastic but definitely better than a black screen. I was able to rack focus with a moderate degree of success.

Camera crashes persistently when using 50/60p modes.

I'm using Komputerbay cards 64GB 1066x

Will try to post a few frames soon. IQ, even shooting at home with crap light, is just beyond words.

[jcs]

I've gotta say, 5D3 RAW 4K has a unique look not available anywhere else at any price- very much looks like a pleasing form of film.

Too bad we can't (yet?) get that look out of a C300 II, 1DX II, or 5D4 along with DPAF and small/easy files!

 

[squig]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

I actually don't have a choice but to shoot with it. The only other camera I own now is the D5500. And although I love the image out of that camera... I'm not going to shoot a short on it when I have a Raw capable camera lying about. I'll just make sure I have 4 or 5 batteries, 3 or 4 64GB cards and my MacBook Air with me to offload the files if needed. It's only going to be a 3-5 minute, mostly silent, short. So I am preparing it in such a way that I am shooting a 3:1 shot ratio. 

You've used ML on the 50D so it shouldn't be a problem. Use the raw histogram and the ETTR hint. I have my LCD brightness 1 notch from the minimum setting which gives a good exposure preview for ETTR shooting. You can use shutter fine tuning to get a 180 degree shutter. Set FPS to exact. If you're using an external monitor you may have to switch the camera on before you turn on the monitor.

[dvcrn]

Man this is impressive!

If I want to pick up a 5DIII, is there anything I should look out for? Would be a shame to get a model that isn't hackable anymore

[hyalinejim]

10 hours ago, erek said:

What is the crop factor for recording 3K and or 4K 24 fps?  is it going to be 3x ?  can't imagine how usable 3x crop is without going almost Fisheye...  the 5D Mark IV is almost usable with 4K @ 1.74 crop with a 24mm lens

It depends on the horizontal resolution you choose to shoot at. Divide the pixel width of 5DIII sensor by horizontal res to get crop factor.

 

10 hours ago, Alex T said:

Does the 14bit lossless compression work for 2k or 1080p full frame? Also what kind of card are you using?

Yes, it does. Expect a 50 to 70% reduction in file size, depending on ISO and scene complexity.

7 hours ago, cpc said:

It depends on detail and range. ISO is only one of the factors which increase detail (more noise). If you shoot a highly detailed wide shot you will get significantly lower compression levels than in the case of, say, a close-up with lots of defocus in the frame. Also, darker shots will compress better (less range).

What I'm seeing is stuff at the pixel level really affects compression. So ISO noise is one, as we already know. The bitrate goes absolutely through the roof when I film the moire pattern on my computer screen. I mean, it even kills crop mode 1920x1080!

[squig]

I tried my Lexar 1066x card, it's a little faster than the Toshiba. 3K 2.39:1 is repeatable at 100 ISO. I had to go back to 2.7-2.8K at 1600 ISO. That works for me, I'll shoot 3K 100 ISO for wide outdoor establishing shots, 2.7K for everything else, and render to 2K scope.

[hyalinejim]

Did I mention that holding half shutter while recording helps if the preview is slipping into grayscale? Squig, that's another advantage of keeping it at 2.7k - preview is smoother. If your delivery is 2048 x 858 then shooting resolution doesn't matter above, ooh let's say, 2.3k just to knock off that debayer softness... other than crop factor if course.

FWIW I saw an amazing short recently with a very unusual aspect ratio:

Pretty sure this ultra ultra scope ratio is achievable in 3.8k on the 5D3 now.

[Jimmy]

Can anyone provide a sample of any of the HFR modes, even 48fps? Thanks for the time people are putting into this!

[Andrew Reid]

15 hours ago, tigerbengal said:

Make sure you downgrade your firmware to 1.1.3...I did it with my 5d mark III with no issues....

only use the firmware 1.2.3 if you need dual monitor, otherwise use the firmware 1.1.3

Why is 1.1.3 better?

[squig]

22 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Why is 1.1.3 better?

It's slightly faster.

[Hans Punk]

15 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Why is 1.1.3 better?

As far as I understand, it is the build that often yields very slightly more efficient memory and write speed...due to not having the addition of outputting clean HDMI/ duel monitor etc. Since the 4k build is bleeding edge, I assume any attempt to optimise processor/memory use is ideal to squeeze out as much juice as possible.

[cpc]

10 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

What I'm seeing is stuff at the pixel level really affects compression. So ISO noise is one, as we already know. The bitrate goes absolutely through the roof when I film the moire pattern on my computer screen. I mean, it even kills crop mode 1920x1080!

Yeah, there is literally no correlation between nearby pixels to be exploited by the compression algorithm once dominant random values like noise and moire appear.

 

10 hours ago, squig said:

I tried my Lexar 1066x card, it's a little faster than the Toshiba. 3K 2.39:1 is repeatable at 100 ISO. I had to go back to 2.7-2.8K at 1600 ISO. That works for me, I'll shoot 3K 100 ISO for wide outdoor establishing shots, 2.7K for everything else, and render to 2K scope.

So is the resolution gain from 1080p to 2.7K actually worth the (probable) loss of sensitivity and wide angle abilities? I'd figure binned full frame 1080p is still the best bang for buck? Maybe a direct comparison of noise levels will shed light on this.

[squig]

2 minutes ago, cpc said:

So is the resolution gain from 1080p to 2.7K actually worth the (probable) loss of sensitivity and wide angle abilities? I'd figure binned full frame 1080p is still the best bang for buck? Maybe a direct comparison of noise levels will shed light on this.

Well I've got an ultra-wide lens so I can still get a 20mm equivalent FOV so that's not an issue. Loss of sensitivity? I don't see any. Noise wise for an equal FOV and DOF to full frame you're shooting at f/2.8 100 ISO instead of f/5.6 400 ISO, so I don't see how it could be noisier. You are zoomed in on the noise though, but to my eyes it's the lesser of two evils. It's definitely worth it for the extra detail, it's now has the resolution of an Alexa!

[Andrew Reid]

1 hour ago, Hans Punk said:

As far as I understand, it is the build that often yields very slightly more efficient memory and write speed...due to not having the addition of outputting clean HDMI/ duel monitor etc. Since the 4k build is bleeding edge, I assume any attempt to optimise processor/memory use is ideal to squeeze out as much juice as possible.

Ah makes sense, thanks

Are people seeing much benefit going from a 1000x card to the newer faster ones, in terms of reliability? The komputerbay cards sometimes bog down at the start of a shot.

[mercer]

13 minutes ago, squig said:

Well I've got an ultra-wide lens so I can still get a 20mm equivalent FOV so that's not an issue. Loss of sensitivity? I don't see any. Noise wise for an equal FOV and DOF to full frame you're shooting at f/2.8 100 ISO instead of f/5.6 400 ISO, so I don't see how it could be noisier. You are zoomed in on the noise though, but to my eyes it's the lesser of two evils. It's definitely worth it for the extra detail, it's now has the resolution of an Alexa!

So is this something you can utilize for your feature? If so, how will you handle synching your audio without the sound... I guess just visual cues from a slate... or does ML have a timecode feature?

[cpc]

6 minutes ago, squig said:

Well I've got an ultra-wide lens so I can still get a 20mm equivalent FOV so that's not an issue. Loss of sensitivity? I don't see any. Noise wise for an equal FOV and DOF to full frame you're shooting at f/2.8 100 ISO instead of f/5.6 400 ISO, so I don't see how it could be noisier. You are zoomed in on the noise though, but to my eyes it's the lesser of two evils. It's definitely worth it for the extra detail, it's now has the resolution of an Alexa!

The idea is that a 3x3 binned image draws from 3*3*1920*1080 photosites (if it is true binning), whereas a 2.7k image (say, 2700*1520, can't remember the exact resolution) would be based on ~4.25 times less photosites, which should affect SNR significantly. But yes, if you are consistently going to shoot 2 stops lower ISO sensitivity, it should be fine.