No Joke - RAW 4K on the 5D Mark III

[mercer]

7 hours ago, tweak said:

As long as you don't use auto WB and shoot in K WB it shouldn't matter. 

I haven't used AWB yet, but I do admit I'm tempted. Back in my t2i and EOS-M days, I would sometimes forget to change the WB, so AWB would usually keep me covered. However I'd rather not deal with the occasional shift, and I'm a lot more disciplined now. 

2 hours ago, cpc said:

It shouldn't really matter even if you are on auto WB. You can always adjust one shot in Resolve and replicate the raw settings to all the others. And not bothering with WB while shooting is one of the advantages of shooting raw. In most cases leaving it at 5600K or 3200K should be fine for monitoring.

Yeah that's basically how I monitor, unless it's a really cloudy day, I'll bump it a little. What monitoring Profile do you recommend. I'm so used to the Prolost Flat look when shooting, so I have it set to that, but I am open to other ideas if it will yield better results in the long run. For instance, I am working on testing some B&W Raw, do you recommend setting the Picture Profile to Monochrome?

[cpc]

5 hours ago, mercer said:

Yeah that's basically how I monitor, unless it's a really cloudy day, I'll bump it a little. What monitoring Profile do you recommend. I'm so used to the Prolost Flat look when shooting, so I have it set to that, but I am open to other ideas if it will yield better results in the long run. For instance, I am working on testing some B&W Raw, do you recommend setting the Picture Profile to Monochrome?

No profile --flat or otherwise -- will be able to properly capture what you will be able to recover in post, so you might as well use it to help with other things. A punchy profile like Standard will help with manual focusing. Couple this with digic peaking + magic zoom, and you'll be surprised at what focusing precision is possible with just the camera display. Also, learning how the monitoring profile relates to the specific post workflow pays good dividends, especially if you are in the habit of exposing consistently. And if you know which profile value ends where in post, then all you need for exposure is the digital spotmeter (which is really the ultimate digital exposure tool anyway).

For B&W Monochrome might be useful in that you get to view the tones only, without color distractions, and this might help with lighting choices and judging separation. But this can also be a detriment since color cues can help with space orientation and framing if there is movement in the shot. And the profile's mapping to grey values will not necessarily match the channel mix you will do in post, so it might be misleading.

[tweak]

7 hours ago, cpc said:

It shouldn't really matter even if you are on auto WB. You can always adjust one shot in Resolve and replicate the raw settings to all the others. And not bothering with WB while shooting is one of the advantages of shooting raw. In most cases leaving it at 5600K or 3200K should be fine for monitoring.

It does matter in some programs though, because your footage will come out looking totally wacky if you shoot AutoWB as AutoWB doesn't apply the metadata to MLraw in the same way... I mean yeah, you could shoot auto and add possibly another pointless step to every file (at least in Resolve) if you want, anybody is free to do what they want after all.

WB is just metadata, but if you set AutoWB some programs (like resolve) will then take the lowest possible setting for whitebalance and apply that to your files... for me this is just annoying and pointless to have to normalise every shot before you can even see what it is properly. If you set to a Kelvin figure (5400 as an example) you can just adjust later and no matter what program you open it in it's going to look somewhat normal. I prefer this approach. 

[hyalinejim]

1 hour ago, cpc said:

A punchy profile like Standard will help with manual focusing. Couple this with digic peaking..

Absolutely! I also turn sharpness up to the max so that it helps with focusing. With digic peaking it makes focusing so much easier.

[mercer]

5 hours ago, cpc said:

No profile --flat or otherwise -- will be able to properly capture what you will be able to recover in post, so you might as well use it to help with other things. A punchy profile like Standard will help with manual focusing. Couple this with digic peaking + magic zoom, and you'll be surprised at what focusing precision is possible with just the camera display. Also, learning how the monitoring profile relates to the specific post workflow pays good dividends, especially if you are in the habit of exposing consistently. And if you know which profile value ends where in post, then all you need for exposure is the digital spotmeter (which is really the ultimate digital exposure tool anyway).

For B&W Monochrome might be useful in that you get to view the tones only, without color distractions, and this might help with lighting choices and judging separation. But this can also be a detriment since color cues can help with space orientation and framing if there is movement in the shot. And the profile's mapping to grey values will not necessarily match the channel mix you will do in post, so it might be misleading.

Thanks, most helpful! I made the brilliant idea of shooting a short with it a week after I got it, so some things I want to wait and test after I finish the short. 

3 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

Absolutely! I also turn sharpness up to the max so that it helps with focusing. With digic peaking it makes focusing so much easier.

That makes sense... great tip. Thanks!!!

[squig]

I've been messing around with the 1.5x Iscorama shooting 4K scope 24p anamorphic (2304x1382 with a 25% upscale). With a 24mm Leica-r it's equal to 40mm full frame. Shot at 3200 ISO with ACR chroma noise reduction. Filmconvert Fuji 8553 LUT.

[mercer]

@squig did you say downthread that you always shoot ML Raw in crop mode? If so, is there a reason why? S35mm? Lens choices? Is the image better in crop mode?

[Zak Forsman]

4 hours ago, squig said:

I've been messing around with the 1.5x Iscorama shooting 4K scope 24p anamorphic (2304x1382 with a 25% upscale). With a 24mm Leica-r it's equal to 40mm full frame. Shot at 3200 ISO with ACR chroma noise reduction. Filmconvert Fuji 8553 LUT.

this looks great. wanted to share something I learned to do in resolve. see at the far left and right of your image the blue/red chromatic aberration along hard lines of dark and light? I get that with my Kowa B&H anamorphic too. but in resolve, if you split your image into red, blue and green channels, you can apply slightly different horizontal scaling to the red and blue channels to eliminate the aberration completely. it also sharpens things up a tad. and you'll get to experience the same, very satisfying, feeling I get everyone time I apply this fix.  

[squig]

8 hours ago, Zak Forsman said:

this looks great. wanted to share something I learned to do in resolve. see at the far left and right of your image the blue/red chromatic aberration along hard lines of dark and light? I get that with my Kowa B&H anamorphic too. but in resolve, if you split your image into red, blue and green channels, you can apply slightly different horizontal scaling to the red and blue channels to eliminate the aberration completely. it also sharpens things up a tad. and you'll get to experience the same, very satisfying, feeling I get everyone time I apply this fix.  

Cool, thanks, I'll check it out. I think ACR has a CA tool too. I'm quite CA phobic, A Clockwork Orange freaks me out.

[squig]

10 hours ago, mercer said:

@squig did you say downthread that you always shoot ML Raw in crop mode? If so, is there a reason why? S35mm? Lens choices? Is the image better in crop mode?

Until the recent 3/4K developments I always shot 1080p 24p and 720p 60p crop. Now I'm keen to shoot crop 2.8K-4K 24p for a few reasons. I shoot a lot of low-key  stuff, the problem with full frame is you have to shoot at around f/5.6 to get good DOF, trouble is to do that you need a shitload of light or you have to crank the ISO. In crop mode I can get good DOF at f/2.8, and lower the ISO to maximise dynamic range. The image is better in crop mode because there's no pixel binning, there was noticeable (to a pixel peeper) aliasing in the old 720p mode. Also the ability to upscale to 4K is good for future proofing my work. I'm thinking about getting a Samyang 16mm or a Sigma 18-35mm to cover the wide end; I've got a Tokina 11-16mm but it hasn't lived up to the mythology.

Having said all that, I'm testing lenses in 1080p and 3K modes, the resolution difference isn't huge, and a lot of it is lens MTF. I'm shooting a GAMMA short in Aug/Sep, all this testing is to determine which mode I should shoot it in, it's likely I'll shoot a mixture, crop mode for very dark scenes and establishing shots, and 1080p for close ups and action.

[mercer]

On 5/18/2017 at 8:43 PM, squig said:

Until the recent 3/4K developments I always shot 1080p 24p and 720p 60p crop. Now I'm keen to shoot crop 2.8K-4K 24p for a few reasons. I shoot a lot of low-key  stuff, the problem with full frame is you have to shoot at around f/5.6 to get good DOF, trouble is to do that you need a shitload of light or you have to crank the ISO. In crop mode I can get good DOF at f/2.8, and lower the ISO to maximise dynamic range. The image is better in crop mode because there's no pixel binning, there was noticeable (to a pixel peeper) aliasing in the old 720p mode. Also the ability to upscale to 4K is good for future proofing my work. I'm thinking about getting a Samyang 16mm or a Sigma 18-35mm to cover the wide end; I've got a Tokina 11-16mm but it hasn't lived up to the mythology.

Having said all that, I'm testing lenses in 1080p and 3K modes, the resolution difference isn't huge, and a lot of it is lens MTF. I'm shooting a GAMMA short in Aug/Sep, all this testing is to determine which mode I should shoot it in, it's likely I'll shoot a mixture, crop mode for very dark scenes and establishing shots, and 1080p for close ups and action.

I look forward to that short Squig. Everything I have seen and read about it seems great. The crop mode is definitely interesting. I haven't read that the crop mode is that much better than regular 1080p... I'll definitely be testing it, and the 3K modes, as soon as I'm done filming my short.

[mercer]

Just finished my 2nd round of shooting for my short. I had a little more trouble correcting these images as I shot a lot in lower light than the first round. But here are a few shots that turned out okay...

I will say that I think ML Raw has ruined me for other cameras. 

[Fritz Pierre]

On 4/2/2017 at 1:20 PM, mercer said:

I was buying one anyway, now this is just gravy that will fulfill those days when I feel like messing around with 4K Raw... just the fact that we can shoot 4K Raw on a $2000 or less camera is nuts. 

I will use mine for micro shorts, 3-5 minutes long. So I am not too worried about storage space and any other hiccups that may occur. The projects are already small enough and I am pretty much a one man band filmmaker, so I won't have the costs more professional productions would accrue.

But even still, I will treat 5D3 Raw like we used to treat shooting 16mm short ends... basically a 3:1, 4:1 shot ratio with a completely planned, story boarded script. Hopefully it will make me a more considerate filmmaker in the end and story, composition and lighting will be bigger concerns.

I still in some respect treat every camera I use as if I'm shooting film...I think just burning through footage or photos hurts the choices one makes and you land up not knowing when you got it right from wrong.

[mercer]

20 minutes ago, Fritz Pierre said:

I still in some respect treat every camera I use as if I'm shooting film...I think just burning through footage or photos hurts the choices one makes and you land up not knowing when you got it right from wrong.

Good point. I never intended to be a filmmaker, let alone a considerate one. I keep trying, some days it pays off, some days it doesn't. Every day I learn something, usually through my failures more than my successes. 

[Fritz Pierre]

12 hours ago, mercer said:

Good point. I never intended to be a filmmaker, let alone a considerate one. I keep trying, some days it pays off, some days it doesn't. Every day I learn something, usually through my failures more than my successes. 

Well that's actually science at work....our brains were hard wired to learn from the mistakes we make from an evolutionary standpoint, so that if we survive the mistake, we don't repeat it (hopefully!)...and all the more compelling reasonswith digital cameras to shoot lean...the cost of film and processing used to force that caution and careful choice before rolling...now it's a question of not shooting so much (and getting something right) that one does not remember but the choice in a shot was...of course nothing works for everyone and this is just something I do...but it's also good practice when one works with actors not to "peak" with them too soon or too late....any creative process is limited....perhaps the hardest choice in art is the decision "I've got it" or "that's the take" or "this painting or sculpture is done"...anyway I'm rambling now??

[mercer]

Am still working on my film and still loving the results. Here's a screengrab from my shoot yesterday. I just threw a LUT on there, to get it into Rec709. I'm sure the final look will be different and more refined...

 

However I do have a question for some of the ML Raw veterans out there... I tend to shoot a lot of silhouettes, and I am finding it tough exposing for them. The Raw histogram is telling me it is overexposed when the sun is in the shot, so when I close the Iris to get me some sun stars, even though it is still showing as over exposed, I am getting a crap ton of noise. I know @squig ends up with some dark footage, any ideas?

Also any new news in 3K/4K Raw?

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Couple questions for those who have a handle on shooting 5D RAW:

1. With the new 12-bit and compressed RAW, what are you looking at for record times? And what cards are fast enough to keep up?

2. Is the post workflow as simple as "convert raw files to DNG, then load into Resolve"? 

3. Can you get full resolution, realtime playback of your clips in camera? At least in 1080p?

4. Is the HDMI output active while shooting RAW? 

5. Any other operational "gotchas" that might deter someone from choosing 5D RAW as an option?

[Hans Punk]

 

Assuming you mean 5D Mkiii?...if yes, I can reply with what I've personally found so far. Other shooters here no doubt have more insight.

 

2 hours ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Couple questions for those who have a handle on shooting 5D RAW:

1. With the new 12-bit and compressed RAW, what are you looking at for record times? And what cards are fast enough to keep up?

Depends on resolution settings and detail of scene being recorded. On the most recent high resolution crop mode build -the clever MLV lite compression will adjust data rate to squeeze as much record time out as possible, but if your scene has high amount of detail - it can spike the data rate and restrict duration of record time. Lexar or Komputerbay CF cards are most commonly used, 1000x or 1066x Komputerbay cards have never personally let me down and are pretty cheap. I can shoot up to 3.5k continuous (scene detail and aspect ratio dependent) on Komputerbay cards. Shorter record durations are possible at higher resolutions.

1080p raw is pretty bulletproof on the 5Diii and is the easiest to shoot with, it is the higher resolutions that always have the quirks or limitations. That is to be expected when you realize what the camera is doing to enable raw video recording (that canon never intended to be made possible).

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2. Is the post workflow as simple as "convert raw files to DNG, then load into Resolve"? 

It can be made very easy if using MLVFS workflow. Basically it acts as a virtual drive to convert the MLV files into .dng files that can be registered to have a Resolve compatible header to the files...no transcodes needed. Search MLVFS in the ML forum for instructions to setup and run. MLV Dump also works great, very simple operation to 'virtually' convert MLV files to .dng. There are many software options for both PC and Mac to process or view the camera files...people seem to have different workflows tips and tricks that also are evolving with the firmware.

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3. Can you get full resolution, realtime playback of your clips in camera? At least in 1080p?

Short answer is no. You can get a lower res, choppy frame rate playback with the non-crop 3.5/4k ML builds. The most recent high resolution builds have live view seriously choked or purposely broken (when in crop mode), so as to enable enough processing power to be freed up to the camera for the higher resolution recording (from my understanding). If shooting 1080p raw, you can also shoot .h264 proxy file at the same time, then select the proxy (as normal) for realtime playback. This is a good option for confidence or client playback as well as a backup if shooting an interview for example. The audio from the .h264 can also be useful as scratch sound to help sync the raw video to a separate sound recording.

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4. Is the HDMI output active while shooting RAW? 

Yes. On 5Diii you can monitor a 'mirrored' live view display from the camera, or HDMI output will act as separate monitor feed (clean). The options depend on the two different builds of ML firmware you can choose to run. With the new high resolution crop mode, I personally use 123 build, that allows me to use rear camera lcd live view as the framing reference (non real-time liveview)...and the HDMI feed to my monitor will display a zoomed in (but real-time) preview - this gives a nice punch in view to use for focus. It's a quirky workaround, but can be made to work quite well.

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5. Any other operational "gotchas" that might deter someone from choosing 5D RAW as an option?

Lots of Gotchas...and part of the fun is to work them out, or creatively work around them.

Developments and tweaks are continuously being made to the ML firmware builds, so what could be an issue today, may have a solution tomorrow. If you can code, you can become a developer to get a feature tested, approved and the committed into a working build for others to test and use. It is a cool community of people that have managed to make great things come out of canon DSLR's.

To use ML and get the most out of it, there is some research and reading of the ML website/forum required....that is not necessarily for everyone. It depends on how much time you can afford to spend. The ML builds and forum developed workflows are so much more refined than a few years ago, so it is very accessible to those who are willing to work with something that does not necessarily come 'ready to run' out of the box. Any detailed questions are best searched on the ML forum, virtually EVERY question has already been asked and answered there, as well as detailed explanations as to how to get your camera up and running pretty quickly.

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/

[squig]

9 hours ago, mercer said:

However I do have a question for some of the ML Raw veterans out there... I tend to shoot a lot of silhouettes, and I am finding it tough exposing for them. The Raw histogram is telling me it is overexposed when the sun is in the shot, so when I close the Iris to get me some sun stars, even though it is still showing as over exposed, I am getting a crap ton of noise. I know @squig ends up with some dark footage, any ideas?

With only 11.7 stops at 100 ISO to play with, you have to make a choice between noise and overexposure. Canon DSLRs are really noisy at base ISO, unlike Nikons, which makes ETTR necessary. With limited dynamic range it's hard to avoid blowing some highlights. I DGAF if I blow highlights, it's only skin I'm really concerned about exposing correctly. Magic Lantern raw highlight recovery is pretty good, so don't be afraid to ETTR. Underexposing mids, particularly at high ISO, can get very ugly. Remember to reduce the brightness of your LCD (or ext monitor) when you shoot raw. Mine is set to the 2nd darkest setting. And if you're shooting actors, matt powder is your friend.

[mercer]

Obviously, I have to stop down to get the sun stars, so I guess I should Iight my actor as well and bring down the mids in post to create the silhouette. Thanks Squig, never had to do silhouettes like this.