No Joke - RAW 4K on the 5D Mark III

[HockeyFan12]

14 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Ah I would not dismiss any of Reds claims. They are pretty much top of the list. 18 stops can be done. Hell Canon has hit 20 stops using 2 F65's side by side using a prism. One set for shadows, one set for highlights, and combining them in to one signal. Probably a early test of 3D output truth be known.

Nope. Red's claims are total bullshit and a joke within the industry and privately a joke even within the ACES technical board. (Oops, shouldn't have said that, but also whatever. Red is the only manufacturer who won't volunteer its chromasticities and matrix settings, because they know they don't know what they're doing, except maybe they know they place the red and green chromasticities too close and are ashamed of their ruddy color.)

I work with Red footage or Alexa footage every day (well, five days a week) and have even shot extensively with both. Red is completely full of shit. (My job is working on network tv series, all shot on Alexa, and occasional series for Netflix, etc. shot on Red because they require 4k through the F55 and Varicam are the new hot systems for good reason, they are very good if you need 4k.) Red has a good camera but it has so much less DR than the Alexa and even less than the F55. It still has a lot, but the emperor's clothes are sheer af. The Dragon improved in the highlights while taking a hit in shadow noise. And all Red cameras suffer terribly under tungsten light in terms of color rendering and noise.

If you believe their claims, the joke's on you when you rent one and either immediately discover it's bs or remain in denial of the above and blame yourself.

On the other hand, if you dismiss Red because they distort the facts and you need a knife to cut through the bs, you miss out on a potentially good system, especially for the money. I'm not saying it's a bad camera, just that it's a joke of a claim. Their reality distortion field got them far, but it won't get you far unless you accept it and work within its limits (or have millions to drop on post). The Dragon has 13 stops of DR at best. And it has poor differentiation between red and green color. And the UI sucks. But... otherwise it's kind of really good.

THAT SAID, 18 stops with HDRx I can totally believe and I apologize if I offended you because it sounds like that was what you were referring to now that I'm reading your comment again. But that's still like saying 20 stops for the F65... when it's two cameras and a prism.  Sure, it can be accomplished, but in practice it's not viable 95% of the time

[Chrad]

While this is amazing, will no doubt be put to good use, and any democritization of prohibitively expensive technology should be welcomed with open arms...

 

...the elephant in the room is that if you can afford to do serious work with 4K raw, you can afford a more suitable camera that requires less hoop jumping than the 5Diii. The storage cost is astronomical. Even independent features with A-list talent choose to record in less space intensive formats for economic reasons.

[Filipe Samora]

7 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

An inverse April Fools is ingenious.

Got to love ML

Unfortunately my 5D3 is not with me at the moment... will have to go and grab it pronto.

Is this shot at 14bit or 10bit?

I was almost sure this would be a reverse April Fools. If memory serves me well, the crop mode feature had also been announced on the very same day. Even though I had bought it primarily for stills, 5D Mark III has to be the best investment I ever made when I eventually decided to change gears.

Maybe it's about time you release an update to your RAW Shooters Guide?

[hyalinejim]

29 minutes ago, Chrad said:

While this is amazing, will no doubt be put to good use, and any democritization of prohibitively expensive technology should be welcomed with open arms...

 

...the elephant in the room is that if you can afford to do serious work with 4K raw, you can afford a more suitable camera that requires less hoop jumping than the 5Diii. The storage cost is astronomical. Even independent features with A-list talent choose to record in less space intensive formats for economic reasons.

Well, I've just finished a 17 minute documentary short. I shot 5 hours of ML 1080p for this. I had to buy an external hard drive to stick the original MLVs on as backup - around €80. And the log 4444 transcodes that I edited and graded from sit on my internal hard drive, taking up 400GB. These costs are not high. Obviously the costs will be higher for a longer project, but quite manageable. And the 3K sample I posted earlier is a roughly similar data rate, due to the 60% compression of the new lossless 14bit.

However, the "elephant in the room" for me is this:

Quote

* Canon preview is broken in most modes; you need to use the grayscale preview in the raw recording module.

ML users are familiar with this, but newcomers to ML may not realise that these advancements in resolution come at a cost: while you're shooting the LCD runs at about one frame every 2 seconds. This means that it's almost pointless to try to move the camera or to change focus while recording. The feedback is so slow that you're pretty much guessing and it's impossible to be precise. Will this ever change? Who knows?

Everyone should read a1ex's updated first page post:

https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=19300.0

The new modes are ideal if you're making work in the style of James Benning, though! (fantastic antidote to the hectic pace of contemporary media)

[Chrad]

55 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

The new modes are ideal if you're making work in the style of James Benning, though! (fantastic antidote to the hectic pace of contemporary media)

Why commit to working in a challenging and uncompromised aesthetic when you can do something just as good without making a difficult artistic choice: camera tests! Wonderful 4K raw-shot camera tests of the gardens, parks and city scapes near 'aspiring filmmakers' everywhere, coming soon to Vimeo. 

[Andrew Reid]

1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

ML users are familiar with this, but newcomers to ML may not realise that these advancements in resolution come at a cost: while you're shooting the LCD runs at about one frame every 2 seconds. This means that it's almost pointless to try to move the camera or to change focus while recording. The feedback is so slow that you're pretty much guessing and it's impossible to be precise. Will this ever change? Who knows?

Everyone should read a1ex's updated first page post:

https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=19300.0

What about the HDMI output? Does that offer a workable preview while the camera records 4K?

[hyalinejim]

36 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

What about the HDMI output? Does that offer a workable preview while the camera records 4K?

AFAIK it doesn't, but I don't have an external HDMI to check.

[squig]

48 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

What about the HDMI output? Does that offer a workable preview while the camera records 4K?

Na.

[Justin Bacle]

I saw the post yesterday on magic lantern's forum and was sure it was an april's fools. Now I have a bit of a doubt.
I don't know if I should thank or hate you :D

[Jimmy]

This is great.... I had written this off as an April fools (good god do i hate April fools day!).

Really interested to see the 1080p 60fps and 48fps 

[mercer]

52 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

This is great.... I had written this off as an April fools (good god do i hate April fools day!).

Really interested to see the 1080p 60fps and 48fps 

Yup, 4K Raw is awesome. Will definitely shoot some silent landscape shots with it at infinity focus, but the 1080p 48p and 60p Raw is the exciting part for me.

[squig]

It's recording 3072x1286 continuously (2.39:1) with a 1.87x crop @ 80MB/s 14bit lossless. Only 2 issues ATM: the useless greyscale preview as @hyalinejim mentioned, and the menu is quite buggy. The other thing is lensing; the Tokina 11-16mm isn't great wide open, it's sharp but I don't like what it does to highlights. The Sigma 20mm f/1.8 is a lot nicer at f/2.8 but it's not very wide at around 37mm with the crop.

[Andrew Reid]

I'm not a huge fan of the Tokina 11-16 either.

Sigma 20mm F1.4 ART is your friend

Closest you can get to 28mm equivalent for 4K 1.5x crop without losing 'the full frame wide angle look'.

I'm kinda interested in the new 1080/60p mode - quality a big step up from earlier with 3x3 binning, right?

And how about the 14bit JPEG lossless compression mode?

In 4K are people finding that they have to drop to 10bit / 12bit from 14bit to get the data rate under the card limits?

A lot of stuff to experiment with and plenty of ways to get the data rate down... I like it.

Did they bust through the earlier 90Mb/s limit with the new faster CF cards or did the card controller stop at 100?

[mercer]

8 minutes ago, squig said:

It's recording 3072x1286 continuously (2.39:1) with a 1.87x crop @ 80MB/s 14bit lossless. Only 2 issues ATM: the useless greyscale preview as @hyalinejim mentioned, and the menu is quite buggy. The other thing is lensing; the Tokina 11-16mm isn't great wide open, it's sharp but I don't like what it does to highlights. The Sigma 20mm f/1.8 is a lot nicer at f/2.8 but it's not very wide at around 37mm with the crop.

I have the RMC 17mm f/3.5. Like most older Tokina lenses, it is soft and dreamy wide open, could be perfect for 3K.

http://www.vintagelensesforvideo.com/tokina-rmc-17mm/

I have been reading the post, but I am new to ML so bear with me...

• You are getting continuous recording in 2:39 @ 3072x1286?

• This is in crop mode with a total crop of 1.87x?

• This is in color preview with proper framing?

• You're recording 24p but LiveView only shows a 7.5fps refresh rate?

• Have you tested any 48p or 60p and if so, 1920x960 is the highest resolution possible?

Thanks in advance for any clarification you can offer.

 

[Andrew Reid]

6 hours ago, Filipe Samora said:

I was almost sure this would be a reverse April Fools. If memory serves me well, the crop mode feature had also been announced on the very same day. Even though I had bought it primarily for stills, 5D Mark III has to be the best investment I ever made when I eventually decided to change gears.

Maybe it's about time you release an update to your RAW Shooters Guide?

That's right they did the same thing with the crop mode feature.

I love how none of the usual blogs like c5d have run the story because they lack the capacity to figure things out... non-users will have a hard time believing this for a few days.

10 minutes ago, mercer said:

I have the RMC 17mm f/3.5. Like most older Tokina lenses, it is soft and dreamy wide open, could be perfect for 3K.

http://www.vintagelensesforvideo.com/tokina-rmc-17mm/

I have been reading the post, but I am new to ML so bear with me...

• You are getting continuous recording in 2:39 @ 3072x1286?

Try the 3840 x 1600!

1.5x crop is much easier to work with than 2x crop on EF mount as you can use the Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 for wide angle duties.

10 minutes ago, mercer said:

• This is in crop mode with a total crop of 1.87x?

• This is in color preview with proper framing?

None of the higher resolution modes above 1080p do Canon live-view, so it will be a low frame rate B/w image.

10 minutes ago, mercer said:

• You're recording 24p but LiveView only shows a 7.5fps refresh rate?

• Have you tested any 48p or 60p and if so, 1920x960 is the highest resolution possible?

Thanks in advance for any clarification you can offer.

I will be reunited with my 5D Mark III on Thursday, until then hopefully we can answer these questions on the forum.

[mercer]

5 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

That's right they did the same thing with the crop mode feature.

I love how none of the usual blogs like c5d have run the story because they lack the capacity to figure things out... non-users will have a hard time believing this for a few days.

Try the 3840 x 1600!

1.5x crop is much easier to work with than 2x crop on EF mount as you can use the Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 for wide angle duties.

None of the higher resolution modes above 1080p do Canon live-view, so it will be a low frame rate B/w image.

I will be reunited with my 5D Mark III on Thursday, until then hopefully we can answer these questions on the forum.

I went searching for your 5D3 ML guide but saw it was out of "print," is there any chance of an updated version in the near future?

[SigurdW]

WOW! Sold my a7s for a 5D III a couple of months ago... Now I certainly won't ever look back

[mercer]

4 minutes ago, SigurdW said:

WOW! Sold my a7s for a 5D III a couple of months ago... Now I certainly won't ever look back

Just ordered mine. I was excited for just old school 1.13, 1.23 version... now this will be mind boggling. 

[AndGuz]

10 hours ago, squig said:

No sound. Getting 3k now with 14bit lossless  No samples yet. I'll get some anamorphic traffic shots tonight if the rain stops.

All,

Is there no sound at all even at lower resolutions or bit depth? Considering ditching a C100Mk2 but only if able to pull 10bit/2.35:1 or better with scratch audio. 

Thanks. 

[jpfilmz]

1 hour ago, squig said:

It's recording 3072x1286 continuously (2.39:1) with a 1.87x crop @ 80MB/s 14bit lossless. Only 2 issues ATM: the useless greyscale preview as @hyalinejim mentioned, and the menu is quite buggy. The other thing is lensing; the Tokina 11-16mm isn't great wide open, it's sharp but I don't like what it does to highlights. The Sigma 20mm f/1.8 is a lot nicer at f/2.8 but it's not very wide at around 37mm with the crop.

I'm in 1.13 and getting pink colored fames using MIRaw Viewer....but it's only with the 14bit lossless setting enabled.