No Joke - RAW 4K on the 5D Mark III

[hyalinejim]

1 hour ago, jpfilmz said:

I'm in 1.13 and getting pink colored fames using MIRaw Viewer....but it's only with the 14bit lossless setting enabled.   

Try the mlv_dump from here:

https://builds.magiclantern.fm/experiments.html

Just on the way back from a Sunday afternoon walk. Brought the 5D. Will try to post some DNGs later.

 

[HockeyFan12]

8 hours ago, Chrad said:

While this is amazing, will no doubt be put to good use, and any democritization of prohibitively expensive technology should be welcomed with open arms...

 

...the elephant in the room is that if you can afford to do serious work with 4K raw, you can afford a more suitable camera that requires less hoop jumping than the 5Diii. The storage cost is astronomical. Even independent features with A-list talent choose to record in less space intensive formats for economic reasons.

Apples and oranges. It sounds like you envy the efficiency and technical acumen of those on this board who are shooting art in 4k for cheap when you're stuck meeting corporate demands at 1080p.

I work a lot on low budget national ads (I'm assuming they cost just under $250k/day per day on set, as that's about average) and even with big budgets for 30 second spots they lack the budget to shoot 4k and certainly to finish in 4k... because the infrastructure is "too big" to be a guy in a room doing all the post, but "too small" to be technicolor or light iron (which do most of the finishing post on the 4k stuff I work on). So yeah, I hear 4k and I run for the hills generally, and usually turn 4k gigs down unless there's a lot of extra money.

But... presumably most people here are working for smaller companies who can build their entire infrastructure around being a boutique 4k house, or it's just one guy or girl with enthusiasm for image quality out shooting art films. Imo, upgrading the infrastructure for network tv to go 4k won't happen any time soon, it's too expensive to replace that many moving parts and they just did it for HD. But smaller leaner companies like YouTube and Netflix are already all in. And individuals have been there for a while–smart phones shoot 4k, and some even display it.

Having millions of dollars and A list talent is a luxury I'd love to have. But not having it is liberating in its own way. When you're small enough, you have more flexibility in choosing your priorities. Personally, I would never shoot a project–not a short, and certainly not a feature–in 4k or RAW unless I had an unlimited budget and certainly not on a test bed hacked camera like this, but that won't stop those more ambitious and smarter than I am from creating great art without spending big bucks. 

[Alex T]

Very, very interested in the lossless 14bit RAW with 58% less file size. I can't afford a new camera right now so this is great news and invigorating!  

[SuperSet]

What's the workflow like for this latest iteration?

[hyalinejim]

Extract files with new version of mlv_dump on the experimental builds page. Use this for batch processing:

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=10526.0

Then work away as normal with the DNGs (Resolve / ACR / other software)

[mercer]

1 hour ago, HockeyFan12 said:

Apples and oranges. It sounds like you envy the efficiency and technical acumen of those on this board who are shooting art in 4k for cheap when you're stuck meeting corporate demands at 1080p.

I work a lot on low budget national ads (I'm assuming they cost just under $250k/day per day on set, as that's about average) and even with big budgets for 30 second spots they lack the budget to shoot 4k and certainly to finish in 4k... because the infrastructure is "too big" to be a guy in a room doing all the post, but "too small" to be technicolor or light iron (which do most of the finishing post on the 4k stuff I work on). So yeah, I hear 4k and I run for the hills generally, and usually turn 4k gigs down unless there's a lot of extra money.

But... presumably most people here are working for smaller companies who can build their entire infrastructure around being a boutique 4k house, or it's just one guy or girl with enthusiasm for image quality out shooting art films. Imo, upgrading the infrastructure for network tv to go 4k won't happen any time soon, it's too expensive to replace that many moving parts and they just did it for HD. But smaller leaner companies like YouTube and Netflix are already all in. And individuals have been there for a while–smart phones shoot 4k, and some even display it.

Having millions of dollars and A list talent is a luxury I'd love to have. But not having it is liberating in its own way. When you're small enough, you have more flexibility in choosing your priorities. Personally, I would never shoot a project–not a short, and certainly not a feature–in 4k or RAW unless I had an unlimited budget and certainly not on a test bed hacked camera like this, but that won't stop those more ambitious and smarter than I am from creating great art without spending big bucks. 

I was buying one anyway, now this is just gravy that will fulfill those days when I feel like messing around with 4K Raw... just the fact that we can shoot 4K Raw on a $2000 or less camera is nuts. 

I will use mine for micro shorts, 3-5 minutes long. So I am not too worried about storage space and any other hiccups that may occur. The projects are already small enough and I am pretty much a one man band filmmaker, so I won't have the costs more professional productions would accrue.

But even still, I will treat 5D3 Raw like we used to treat shooting 16mm short ends... basically a 3:1, 4:1 shot ratio with a completely planned, story boarded script. Hopefully it will make me a more considerate filmmaker in the end and story, composition and lighting will be bigger concerns.

[hyalinejim]

OK, I'm back at home. Haven't had a chance to have a look at these yet. These are the first DNG in each of the sequences I shot today. There may be motion blur in some, as it was handheld, and some were through a car window.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oqdeuipslwnvipq/AADPkIFTb-HCVPmdsZKz6AeEa?dl=0

All are 3168 x 1320. I used 5x crop with 14bit lossless. I see A1ex has posted a new build with all the new crop modes included. Haven't had a chance to play with those just yet. But these DNGs are continuous at 24p on a Komputerbay 256GB 1066x.

They're not particularly pretty. But if you don't have a cam and wanna have a play - jump right in!

EDIT: And if you're interested in checking out how Cinelog-C can contribute to a ML workflow, I've exported a 444 Cineform transcode of those very same DNGs in one file here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0o8ugt0s9yrxk45/ML%203K.avi?dl=0

PS: Lens was a Tamron 24-70 @ 4 to 5.6 mostly.

[satoshi]

Just tested - check mate sony! I'm sure the magic lantern boyos will add usable liveview preview and sound recording, then together with 60fps RAW and cheap CF we have a killer with look only matched by ARRI or Panavision, just check ebay - mark3 prices are going through the roof!

[fuzzynormal]

57 minutes ago, mercer said:

I was buying one anyway, now this is just gravy that will fulfill those days when I feel like messing around with 4K Raw... just the fact that we can shoot 4K Raw on a $2000 or less camera is nuts. 

I will use mine for micro shorts, 3-5 minutes long. So I am not too worried about storage space and any other hiccups that may occur. The projects are already small enough and I am pretty much a one man band filmmaker, so I won't have the costs more professional productions would accrue.

But even still, I will treat 5D3 Raw like we used to treat shooting 16mm short ends... basically a 3:1, 4:1 shot ratio with a completely planned, story boarded script. Hopefully it will make me a more considerate filmmaker in the end and story, composition and lighting will be bigger concerns.

Keep us connected how things go for you.

Nice that the Canon cam can do fancy hack video, but certainly curious how practical it is in reality.

In the past, I've haven't been able to get happy with RAW shooting/editing workflow, but I tend to capture a ton for doc work, so my shoot ratio is up there.  I truly am an inconsiderate filmmaker in that regard.

Overall, I'd love some options for RAW workflow that fit my needs, as color correcting shots before the edit doesn't jibe with how I like to do things.

[hyalinejim]

@fuzzynormal log transcodes are the way to go. Ballpark WB on ingest, and do your grading later. Compare my log example vs original DNGs above. 

[Gregormannschaft]

This is great. Amazing, actually. I'd love to give it a go. But is this thing ever really useable professionally?

[hyalinejim]

At the moment, these super-resolution modes are not usable professionally. But, if the LCD preview gets fixed so that it's in real time then absolutely yes.

[zerocool22]

Yeah I would love a side by side of the ML 4K vs the ML1080p. To see if it holds sharpness/detail better. (as I already sold my 5D III, so cannot test it for myself). This is great news! Only wish this was happening on the 5D IV(so we also get more DR, detail and better low light performance).

[mercer]

2 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

OK, I'm back at home. Haven't had a chance to have a look at these yet. These are the first DNG in each of the sequences I shot today. There may be motion blur in some, as it was handheld, and some were through a car window.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oqdeuipslwnvipq/AADPkIFTb-HCVPmdsZKz6AeEa?dl=0

All are 3168 x 1320. I used 5x crop with 14bit lossless. I see A1ex has posted a new build with all the new crop modes included. Haven't had a chance to play with those just yet. But these DNGs are continuous at 24p on a Komputerbay 256GB 1066x.

They're not particularly pretty. But if you don't have a cam and wanna have a play - jump right in!

EDIT: And if you're interested in checking out how Cinelog-C can contribute to a ML workflow, I've exported a 444 Cineform transcode of those very same DNGs in one file here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0o8ugt0s9yrxk45/ML%203K.avi?dl=0

PS: Lens was a Tamron 24-70 @ 4 to 5.6 mostly.

Damn Jim, that looks amazing, effing epic. 

13 minutes ago, zerocool22 said:

Yeah I would love a side by side of the ML 4K vs the ML1080p. To see if it holds sharpness/detail better. (as I already sold my 5D III, so cannot test it for myself). This is great news! Only wish this was happening on the 5D IV(so we also get more DR, detail and better low light performance).

Damn, why did you sell your 5D3? That Tokyo footage you shot is some of the nicest 5D3 footage I've seen and it put the camera on my radar. 

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

OK, I'm back at home. Haven't had a chance to have a look at these yet. These are the first DNG in each of the sequences I shot today. There may be motion blur in some, as it was handheld, and some were through a car window.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oqdeuipslwnvipq/AADPkIFTb-HCVPmdsZKz6AeEa?dl=0

All are 3168 x 1320. I used 5x crop with 14bit lossless. I see A1ex has posted a new build with all the new crop modes included. Haven't had a chance to play with those just yet. But these DNGs are continuous at 24p on a Komputerbay 256GB 1066x.

They're not particularly pretty. But if you don't have a cam and wanna have a play - jump right in!

EDIT: And if you're interested in checking out how Cinelog-C can contribute to a ML workflow, I've exported a 444 Cineform transcode of those very same DNGs in one file here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0o8ugt0s9yrxk45/ML%203K.avi?dl=0

PS: Lens was a Tamron 24-70 @ 4 to 5.6 mostly.

That frame I could have sworn was from a Hollywood movie but it's actually just somewhere in England isn't it

Well it demonstrates everything I love about 5D Mark III 14bit colour.

Is there any reason why you're shooting in 2x crop 3K and not the 1.5x crop UHD?

16 minutes ago, zerocool22 said:

Yeah I would love a side by side of the ML 4K vs the ML1080p. To see if it holds sharpness/detail better. (as I already sold my 5D III, so cannot test it for myself). This is great news! Only wish this was happening on the 5D IV(so we also get more DR, detail and better low light performance).

The 5D MK IV would actually be rather tricky as these ML modes work from a crop of the sensor.

Rather crop 3K and 4K from a 22MP sensor than a 30MP one.

Canon should make an official ML special edition 5D3 and they'd sell a boat load and share the profits with a1ex.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, fuzzynormal said:

Keep us connected how things go for you.

Nice that the Canon cam can do fancy hack video, but certainly curious how practical it is in reality.

In the past, I've haven't been able to get happy with RAW shooting/editing workflow, but I tend to capture a ton for doc work, so my shoot ratio is up there.  I truly am an inconsiderate filmmaker in that regard.

Overall, I'd love some options for RAW workflow that fit my needs, as color correcting shots before the edit doesn't jibe with how I like to do things.

Will do fuzzy. I have a window of time before I have to sell off a lot of stuff and I decided I want to go out with a bang. It started when I saw that video I linked to a few pages ago and then I found Luke Neumann's old 5D3 raw videos that showcased similar locations as his recent GH5 videos and to be honest, imo, there was no contest. The 5D3 ML Raw videos look like they could have been projected on a big screen. It was an easy choice after that. 

[hyalinejim]

23 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

That frame I could have sworn was from a Hollywood movie but it's actually just somewhere in England isn't it

Well, as a Cork man living in Dublin I'd say that pretty much sums it up

24 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Is there any reason why you're shooting in 2x crop 3K and not the 1.5x crop UHD?

The high resolution crop modes in the crop_rec module of the "4K raw video recording" build have zero preview at the moment - just a bunch of garbled pixels.

But the regular 5x crop mode combined with the 14 bit lossless option now available in the mlv_lite module gives the slowed down grayscale preview, so you at least have some idea of what you're doing.

[yoclay]

The camera that just keeps on giving.

Thanks to the ML team which just keeps on giving.

Not particularly pretty ? That stills look terrific Mercer.

I have always loved the 14 bit image coming from the 5D3.  As someone who does a lot of grading (even professionally) I have always found the 5D3 offered very true color right out of the box.  If the exposure is on, I often don't even need to correct it.

Which brings me back to a discussion with a very well known DP recently.  He said he would rather have great color depth at FullHD on a camera  than higher dynamic range or resolution at lower bit depth.  I think he is right.  As a DP our job is to get the exposure right and control the light. 

Kudos for the superb work, ML.  Thanks for bringing this to our attention as well Andrew.

[mercer]

27 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

That frame I could have sworn was from a Hollywood movie but it's actually just somewhere in England isn't it

It really does look amazing. This new feature will be great for establishing shots and maybe even drone footage while the traditional MLVs can be used for the meat and potatoes of a film.

31 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Canon should make an official ML special edition 5D3 and they'd sell a boat load and share the profits with a1ex.

Great idea, if only Canon were as forward thinking. 

4 minutes ago, yoclay said:

The camera that just keeps on giving.

Thanks to the ML team which just keeps on giving.

Not particularly pretty ? That stills look terrific Mercer.

I have always loved the 14 bit image coming from the 5D3.  As someone who does a lot of grading (even professionally) I have always found the 5D3 offered very true color right out of the box.  If the exposure is on, I often don't even need to correct it.

Which brings me back to a discussion with a very well known DP recently.  He said he would rather have great color depth at FullHD on a camera  than higher dynamic range or resolution at lower bit depth.  I think he is right.  As a DP our job is to get the exposure right and control the light. 

Kudos for the superb work, ML.  Thanks for bringing this to our attention as well Andrew.

I don't think I disagreed with you.

[hyalinejim]

1 hour ago, zerocool22 said:

Yeah I would love a side by side of the ML 4K vs the ML1080p. To see if it holds sharpness/detail better

I had a go at this for you:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ar0uzz0x1464g9t/AACxzLhdQfuSTVnz9Eo85kCQa?dl=0

2 DNGs with similar framing, one at 1920 x 1080, the other at 3584 x 1320. It's not as straightforward as you might expect (as with many things in ML) to do a direct comparison as at the moment the 5x crop mode that gives the high resolutions with 14bit lossless is not a centered crop of the sensor so the same perspective is impossible.

I tried downsizing the larger file to more or less fit the 1080p file. Yes, it looks to be slightly more detailed and with less aliasing but Joe Soap probably wouldn't spot the difference in this particular shot.