Adobe Rant

[Clayton Moore]

The way it always worked at Apple was that the engineers were always tasked with what I call new software bling (new cool features) those always had to work out of the box.  Bugs always took a back seat, even though that had already been around for a while.  It could easily be end of the year before any of this gets fixed.

[SuperSet]

Adding new features is good. Even adding new features that don't work is tolerable as long as you fix it.

Breaking something that was working is very bad.

Computer programmers should take cue from the hippocratic oath - first do no harm...

[Brett Munoz]

Had many failed attempts to log in so that I can say one thing, FUCK ADOBE!  My timelines constantly crash and do not play.  A lot of times I have to revert to CS6 using XMLs.  This issue always has to do with using nested sequences.  I tried getting help from their customer support and forum but after a few days, I gave up.  Also, LIGHTROOM!  WTF!  It takes what seems like forever to render an image to begin to edit.  When I edit in Bridge, it renders pretty quickly.  I have tried modifying preferences and import settings and nothing resolves lag issues.   

[Don Kotlos]

5 minutes ago, Brett Munoz said:

LIGHTROOM!  WTF!  It takes what seems like forever to render an image to begin to edit.  

Have you disabled the GPU support? If not, give it a try.

[Geoff CB]

23 minutes ago, Brett Munoz said:

Had many failed attempts to log in so that I can say one thing, FUCK ADOBE!  My timelines constantly crash and do not play.  A lot of times I have to revert to CS6 using XMLs.  This issue always has to do with using nested sequences.  I tried getting help from their customer support and forum but after a few days, I gave up.  Also, LIGHTROOM!  WTF!  It takes what seems like forever to render an image to begin to edit.  When I edit in Bridge, it renders pretty quickly.  I have tried modifying preferences and import settings and nothing resolves lag issues.   

I was working on a documentary that had a metric ton of nested sequences. Constantly crashing about halfway through. Contacted adobe and they suggested that I use less of them...I was halfway through.

[jcs]

@Neumann Films I spent over $5K on a new computer to edit C300 II 4K footage smoothly in PP CC. I knew back then (December) that the 'old' 2010 12-Core Mac Pro with GTX 980ti was more than powerful enough (way more than powerful enough) to easily edit multiple 4K streams in real-time, let alone just one. I knew it was Adobe's software holding back performance since FCPX ran rings around PP CC for 4K footage in real-time on the same hardware. Now four months later, PP CC can edit 1-2 4K streams well enough that the new machine purchase could have been avoided, saving $5+K. The new machine is still useful, as it is much faster, however it's no longer required to do basic 4K edits.

The latest release may have also increased rendering export speed (didn't notice until recently, 2x real-time 1080p on the old machine). It also looks like they may have improved Ultra Key (fine hair detail seems to look better).

@SuperSet since the GH5 footage edits fine when rewrapped into MXF (don't transcode! waste of time and quality loss; solution posted on this site for PC users), the GH5 fix for Adobe is trivial as far as code changes. However, the QA process takes a long time for something as big, monolithic, and ancient as Adobe's code base. I've done everything in software from development to executive management. It's absolutely not up to developers what gets done. It's up to executive management (who are typically given filtered info from middle management). Unless the executives are code-savvy and technical (surprisingly rare in tech companies, believe it or not), getting things fixed and the right features added is sometimes very difficult for large companies. What other large company is doing better? Apple? Microsoft? Google's software is terrible, lol, not even a contender. Why? Internal politics and they are making so much money from Big Data sales it doesn't really matter.

I too used to get into a 'rant state' with software vendors (probably the most with Microsoft in the past), now I just figure out (and share) solutions to work around the issues since there really aren't any other options.

Adobe's code base is so old it's very hard to work on it. They really need an all-new ground up rewrite (as was done with FCPX). The challenges are many. First, great software architects are very few. Most of them aren't working for big companies, being smart enough to know they can make way more money in a startup (of which they are part or sole owner). Only when there's a truly drop-in replacement which can compete with Premiere will Adobe be forced to make big changes due to lost revenue.  Resolve could do that someday, but they are currently far away in performance let alone feature parity. FCPX on OSX is decent, but still a ways off in features (especially color grading without add-ons; even so still prefer Lumetri in PP CC).

For now, use the MXF rewrap tools for GH5 footage- no loss in quality and as fast as a file copy. The issue is with Adobe's format importer. The MXF code path can handle the GH5's (industry standard, nothing new here) 10-bit H.264 (the MP4/MOV importer code path cannot; probably a simple 'one-liner' code change to fix it by the way (perhaps as simple as a switch to handle the FOURCC format type for the video stream). It might even be possible to drop on the appropriate DLL (and perhaps a config file) from the prior release to fix it...

[jax_rox]

4 hours ago, marcuswolschon said:

It would force you to aquire in 8bit in the first place and you can't make the decision to buy the studio version later and then take advantage of the 10bit 4K footage you had aquired back then.

It would force you to transcode to 8-bit, with the ability to re-link to the original 10-bit footage if you decide. Alternately, you could transcode to a different codec that the free version does support.

A minor inconvenience that can be avoided pretty easily... it's not all that long ago that Standalone NLEs cost $2k+ and Resolve cost $10k+

$300 is pretty damn cheap.

[Neumann Films]

I dunno...Adobe may have lost a customer today and Black Magic might have gained one.  Final straw for me.  This is not the first headache I have received from Adobe and I'm tired of the Creative Cloud thing. Over it.

[jcs]

21 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

I dunno...Adobe may have lost a customer today and Black Magic might have gained one.  Final straw for me.  This is not the first headache I have received from Adobe and I'm tired of the Creative Cloud thing. Over it.

Just tried Resolve 14 beta. Looking better in terms of UI and flow. However it's much slower than PP CC and FCPX with 4K C300 II and 1DX II footage (choppy non-real-time playback with one video track and no effects, constant audio drop out, didn't render waveforms in Fairlight etc. (still beta)). Interesting to note CPU usage was almost nil, however the GTX 980ti has enough RAM and cores to easily handle multiple streams of 4K- so some optimization needed there (tried both CUDA and OpenCL). And it also doesn't load the GH5 video track either; not just an Adobe issue. I predict you won't bail on PP CC just yet. I agree Adobe's subscription model hasn't been worth it value-for-performance-reliability, however until Resolve catches up for even basic editing, there's not many viable options beyond maybe FCPX on OSX (and not an option for folks who don't want to use Macs or Hackintoshs). I'm getting decent performance from the latest PP CC release, and so far no annoying crashes, so maybe they are making slow progress in the right direction (they'll fix the GH5 issue; it's trivial, only a matter of QA, testing, etc., which unfortunately takes more time than it should. Too bad they can't offer a hot fix for just GH5 users (reduces QA liability if they break something else for other users)).

[Neumann Films]

19 minutes ago, jcs said:

Just tried Resolve 14 beta. Looking better in terms of UI and flow. However it's much slower than PP CC and FCPX with 4K C300 II and 1DX II footage (choppy non-real-time playback with one video track and no effects, constant audio drop out, didn't render waveforms in Fairlight etc. (still beta)). Interesting to note CPU usage was almost nil, however the GTX 980ti has enough RAM and cores to easily handle multiple streams of 4K- so some optimization needed there (tried both CUDA and OpenCL). And it also doesn't load the GH5 video track either; not just an Adobe issue. I predict you won't bail on PP CC just yet. I agree Adobe's subscription model hasn't been worth it value-for-performance-reliability, however until Resolve catches up for even basic editing, there's not many viable options beyond maybe FCPX on OSX (and not an option for folks who don't want to use Macs or Hackintoshs). I'm getting decent performance from the latest PP CC release, and so far no annoying crashes, so maybe they are making slow progress in the right direction (they'll fix the GH5 issue; it's trivial, only a matter of QA, testing, etc., which unfortunately takes more time than it should. Too bad they can't offer a hot fix for just GH5 users (reduces QA liability if they break something else for other users)).

It's definitely not just the GH5 issue alone that is driving me away.  Everything from bad cache managment to the Adjustment Layer integration (which seems like it was made by a 3 year old).  Removing H.264 export from AE, trying to tie all of the products together by removing features (essentially forcing people to get the whole CC subscription).  It's just not great.

I love Audition for audio and AE is my preferred heavy lifter for grading (aside from no H.264).

Add to that the snail like pace for support, the ghost town of a forum, and the fact that I'm paying them every month for a bunch of software I don't want or use just to get the ones that I do...

I could go on, lol.  I haven't been a fan lately.

[SMGJohn]

Basically what we Samsung NX1 users had to do, proxy proxy proxy everytime. 
Adobe however has completely abandon colour grading though, I am looking for good alternatives with just as powerful editing capability as Premiere Pro, anyone know? 
Of course I do not pay Adobe a damn SHAIT since they just gave the finger to those of us who bought CS6 Ultimate Collection which cost me a lot of money back in the day.

I heard of Resolve but is it as powerful an editor as Premiere Pro? 

[fuzzynormal]

1 minute ago, SMGJohn said:

proxy proxy proxy everytime.

I do this.  It takes hardly any time and makes the editing so much breezier.  I've also served proxy files over LAN wi-fi and had it work.  That's pretty handy when you need two edits of the same footage going at once.

[Geoff CB]

16 minutes ago, SMGJohn said:

Basically what we Samsung NX1 users had to do, proxy proxy proxy everytime. 
Adobe however has completely abandon colour grading though, I am looking for good alternatives with just as powerful editing capability as Premiere Pro, anyone know? 
Of course I do not pay Adobe a damn SHAIT since they just gave the finger to those of us who bought CS6 Ultimate Collection which cost me a lot of money back in the day.

I heard of Resolve but is it as powerful an editor as Premiere Pro? 

Yes it's a great editor, especially with the latest update. 

[gethin]

Lightroom: total nightmare. Honestly I've not experienced anything so slow since trying to use corel draw on a 386 laptop 25 years ago. 

Premiere: the most stable its ever been for me.  Hardly ever crashes handles the vast majority of shit I throw at it (lots of shit: backwards clips, mixed 4K and 1080, mixed codecs, 3 adjustment layers with lumetri and different blend modes, several lumetri adjustments with masks on a clip...)

If i could find something that processes raws like camera raw I'd at least look hard at resolve. Having said that I want adobe to succeed (loyalty that comes from 27 years of using photoshop). 

[marcuswolschon]

5 hours ago, jcs said:

Just tried Resolve 14 beta. Looking better in terms of UI and flow. ... And it also doesn't load the GH5 video track either;

 

Only the studio version loads the GH5 10bit footage.

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=58547

(Haven't tried the 14 beta yet myself. Downloaded it last night.)

[jcs]

4 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

It's definitely not just the GH5 issue alone that is driving me away.  Everything from bad cache managment to the Adjustment Layer integration (which seems like it was made by a 3 year old).  Removing H.264 export from AE, trying to tie all of the products together by removing features (essentially forcing people to get the whole CC subscription).  It's just not great.

I love Audition for audio and AE is my preferred heavy lifter for grading (aside from no H.264).

Add to that the snail like pace for support, the ghost town of a forum, and the fact that I'm paying them every month for a bunch of software I don't want or use just to get the ones that I do...

I could go on, lol.  I haven't been a fan lately.

Back in December when I had to shell out cash to build a new machine to handle 4K I was in the same boat- really disappointed that the software was so slow and buggy. I slowly learned what made it crash (such as using Matte Soften in Ultra Key!), and they've slowly fixed it. I haven't gotten any nesting crashes lately, though sometimes I need to restart due to nesting bugs. Fortunately a restart fixes the bugs so far. I use Audition too, and also use Logic and Reaper (used to use SoundForge on Windows, and Pro tools long ago on OSX). For low-level waveform editing, what can Audition be replaced with? (don't say Audacity lol; not going back to Pro tools). What to replace Photoshop with? Especially what you can do with Camera Raw (I use it heavily for raw stills and also as a filter)? AE gets used from time to time too. Kinda hard to 100% bail on Adobe subscription until there are more options for replacement apps.

[Neumann Films]

1 hour ago, jcs said:

Back in December when I had to shell out cash to build a new machine to handle 4K I was in the same boat- really disappointed that the software was so slow and buggy. I slowly learned what made it crash (such as using Matte Soften in Ultra Key!), and they've slowly fixed it. I haven't gotten any nesting crashes lately, though sometimes I need to restart due to nesting bugs. Fortunately a restart fixes the bugs so far. I use Audition too, and also use Logic and Reaper (used to use SoundForge on Windows, and Pro tools long ago on OSX). For low-level waveform editing, what can Audition be replaced with? (don't say Audacity lol; not going back to Pro tools). What to replace Photoshop with? Especially what you can do with Camera Raw (I use it heavily for raw stills and also as a filter)? AE gets used from time to time too. Kinda hard to 100% bail on Adobe subscription until there are more options for replacement apps.

Yup, I agree.  I use all of them at this point and Premiere is my least favorite..by far.  I like Sony Acid as a replacement, believe it or not.  Sony software is so close in so many ways, they just can't win enough people over to (seemingly) put the resources into it that would make it a player.  Seems like if it will be anyone, it will be Resolve.  After Effects and Premiere hybrid?  Yes please.  The only issue they have is getting everyone away from the Creative Cloud.  It's not just about beating Premiere or AE.  They need Premiere, After Effects, and Audition all in one.  If they do that...they deserve my business over Adobe.

[Ki Rin]

It seems like the new fairlight audio in Resolve could replace Audition. At least from what I can gather from their marketing video. 

[jcs]

9 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

Yup, I agree.  I use all of them at this point and Premiere is my least favorite..by far.  I like Sony Acid as a replacement, believe it or not.  Sony software is so close in so many ways, they just can't win enough people over to (seemingly) put the resources into it that would make it a player.  Seems like if it will be anyone, it will be Resolve.  After Effects and Premiere hybrid?  Yes please.  The only issue they have is getting everyone away from the Creative Cloud.  It's not just about beating Premiere or AE.  They need Premiere, After Effects, and Audition all in one.  If they do that...they DESERVE our business.  I really don't like Adobe Dynamic Link or whatever.  It's intuitive  enough but I just don't like the idea behind it.

Looks like Acid and SoundForge are now part of Magix software? SoundForge+Acid+Spectral Layers Pro could replace Audition on Windows. Agree rolling Pr/AE/Au into one app is the long term right answer.

[Axel]

I subscribe to Photoshop (13 €) although I have Affinity. And I have After Effects (24 €) although I also have Motion. Both Adobe applications I know since almost 20 years. AAE is ridiculously old-fashioned and has a terrible UI, but the thing is: I know this UI like I know the back of my hand. What about integration, dynamic link? Not a big issue. I can pre-compose everything in FCP X as compounds as part of the sequence. Since a compound is also a project of it's own, I can XML it over to AAE (I use X2CC for that, 50 € once, not sure if this was even necessary), render there, re-import it (name of the compound) and connect the finished result over the compound. Should anything change later on in the edit, I alter the compound, asf.

I guess the same thing could be done with Resolve, since Resolve also knows compounds. The NLE has to be about performance and stability, not about a thousand features. Adobe has maneuvered Premiere to a dead end in this respect. In 2009, 2010 they had been very successful with the mercury engine. 

Other NLEs, like Edius and FCP X, used - and continue to use - every dirty trick to improve performance. Premieres 2015's proxy workflow was awkwardly and half-heartedly integrated. As if editing non-natively was a shame. Even the free Resolve had that thought out waaay better:

I fully understand the frustration. GH5 10-bit footage not supported and such things. I also understand that people like to use the NLE they know best. So go the Rocky Mountains route or wrap to MXF. But nobody is forced to pay monthly for a product he feels is becoming a PITA.