Sony A7S Mark 3 - What to expect

[Trek of Joy]

On 5/30/2018 at 7:49 AM, Don Kotlos said:

Looks like a low megapixel sensor and no 10bit:

– Fs series suffer from the success of A7 series (30% of the pro market)S
– They can’t implement 10bits 4k in FS5II because this needs to much power consumption, it is not a marketing choice.A
– 10 bits 4k will be for the next FS generation R
– A7sIII is coming soon, but it’s the most hiden secret, even in internal Sony teams
– A7sIII will keep the same “identity”: low resolution sensor and extreme low light capabilities. Usuable High ISO are more important than oversampling.

I think the mild refresh of the FS5 was pretty telling. My guess is the new body with the higher spec EVF/LCD from the a7r3, the same $3200 price, PDAF with a stacked sensor for faster readout/less rolling shutter, and 4k60p with the same bitrates as all the other a7's. Just to keep the gap between them and the FS line.

If they do go stacked sensor and PDAF, expect insane face/eye detection with those fat pixels.

Personally I'd like to see a MP bump so crop mode is full pixel readout 4k, but I don't think that's going to happen. 

Cheers

Chris

[newfoundmass]

2 hours ago, kye said:

We seem to be saying "how can they possibly improve their tiny mirrorless line without cannibalising their cinema line" quite a lot.  Surely there are reasons that people would prefer a camera the size of an FS5, VENICE, C200, etc over a FF DSLR sized body?  Even just ergonomics?

It wouldn't make sense because so many people that shoot on those cameras started on DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras before moving onto higher end cinema cameras. If you're able to get equal results with a DSLR style body that you could get from their cinema camera line, and you're used to / comfortable with using that style of camera, why would you bother? 

I look at it like this: in 2000 the local production house I got my feet wet in shot with the Canon XL-1, which was a $5,000 camera. They had 4 of them. That was a $20,000 investment. Want to know what they shoot with today? 4 GH4s, a $6,800 investment. According to my friend that works there they don't feel they NEED to invest $5,000 into a single camera anymore because the capabilities of these little cameras are so good and while they could easily afford nicer cameras, given they work with tons of big clients around the state, why bother? 

The dynamic changed 10 years ago, and so did a lot of people's mentalities. If the DSLR revolution hadn't kicked off production companies like the one I started at would still be dishing out $5,000 for a camera, no doubt. But the key is they don't have to. These cinema lines need something to differentiate themselves, it's integral to their marketing. 

While a giant Hollywood blockbuster will never be shot on these little cams, it seems inevitable that eventually a pretty big motion picture will be shot with one of them. Hell, we got respected filmmakers releasing films shot on iPhones now! And have we forgotten features were shot on Mini DV less than 15 years ago? 

[webrunner5]

Yeah but with Gimbals now and Run n Gun doable because of IBIS, I think the Need for a large Cine camera is going the way of the Horse and Buggy. If they come out with ND's in a mirrorless, whether mechanical or electronic, I see no real need for a large camera body anymore for the average person. Sure Hollywood is using the Panavision stuff, but they are over the top, mega money cameras, that in reality you can't even buy.

[wolf33d]

1- @kye Of course there will be an A7S III

2- I agree with @newfoundmass. I think the issue is technology at this point. Just lookt at the FS5 II and yet it has a smaller sensor. But I am sure it will at least have 4K60p otherwise there is not point as it would be an A7III in worst (less mpx). 

3- All things considered, it is safe to assume that the A7S III will be an A7 III with lower res sensor and 4K60P internal. The question remains on the bonuses: 10bit, mpx count, ...

4- @zerocool22 Why? There is no FF camera on the market with 4K60p and a good AF today except the 1DX which cost 2 arms, weight a truck and has poor codecs. The new Black Magic will give you the absolute best image under 4000$ for sure with 4K60p RAW. But at what cost? At the cost of small sensor size (acceptable) and no AF which for me is in the absolute must have feature list for any new video camera. After trying the A7R III on a gimbal I cannot imagine using anymore piece of shit AF like GH5 and so on as a main camera. 
Still I ordered the BM day one because as I said the image will be superb but for me it cannot be my main camera.
Depends on what you film of course! 

[webrunner5]

I think there is becoming a less and less need for a A7s mk anything now. Both the A7r mk III, and the A7 mk III, and the A9 have high as heck ISO now. Why does Sony need 4, yeah 4 A style bodies counting a A7s mk III if there even is one?? What is it going to bring to the table that they can't put in one of the other 3 bodies 4 months from now? Remember how quick the A6500 came out after the A6300. Sony is not afraid to undercut it's self.

[newfoundmass]

You know we're spoiled by auto focus and low light  performance when people are so dismissive of the GH5. It really is an incredible camera, a true achievement in camera development. I apologize if that makes me sound like a fan boy, but it really is. 

[webrunner5]

8 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

You know we're spoiled by auto focus and low light  performance when people are so dismissive of the GH5. It really is an incredible camera, a true achievement in camera development. I apologize if that makes me sound like a fan boy, but it really is. 

Sad to say but Panasonic is going to Have to get off their ass and come out out with a Whole new focusing system or their goose is cooked, This is not 2010 anymore. Great AF is in in that segment, and they will not be able to give them away if they don't come up with a new way to do it. 2500 Dollar focusing turds are not a good thing to try to sell.

And with a DPAF Mirrorless on it's way from Canon, and Nikon doing one , Panasonic better grab onto their butt if they are half decent. Sony and Canon do have AF figured out.

[wolf33d]

7 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

You know we're spoiled by auto focus and low light  performance when people are so dismissive of the GH5. It really is an incredible camera, a true achievement in camera development. I apologize if that makes me sound like a fan boy, but it really is. 

Not an excuse to provide a 2010 AF. 

3 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Sad to say but Panasonic is going to Have to get off their ass and come out out with a Whole new focusing system or their goose is cooked, This is not 2010 anymore. Great AF is in in that segment, and they will not be able to give them away if they don't come up with a new way to do it. 2500 Dollar focusing turds are not a good thing to try to sell.

Exactly.

 

11 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I think there is becoming a less and less need for a A7s mk anything now. Both the A7r mk III, and the A7 mk III, and the A9 have high as heck ISO now.

Not about ISO. I agree, I am 100% fine with a7iii iso. But about video capabilities. 4K60p and other video features (10bit, ...) that's the need. Don't forget the a7s line has 2 purpose : ISO and Video. 

[newfoundmass]

9 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but with Gimbals now and Run n Gun doable because of IBIS, I think the Need for a large Cine camera is going the way of the Horse and Buggy. If they come out with ND's in a mirrorless, whether mechanical or electronic, I see no real need for a large camera body anymore for the average person. Sure Hollywood is using the Panavision stuff, but they are over the top, mega money cameras, that in reality you can't even buy.

Look at a film like 28 Days Later. Shot on the Canon XL-1 in 2002 it made 86 million at the box office and is a critically acclaimed film. Not bad for a film shot on a "prosumer" camera. Imagine what they could've done today using any number of cameras under the $2,000 mark! Given a whole new generation of filmmakers have grown up and learned on these cameras, it's inevitable that we're going to start seeing successful features shot with this level of gear. 

While  cinema cameras will never go away (nor should they), especially the higher end ones that are engrained in Hollywood and show business culture, it's exciting to think about what the future holds for filmmaking. And I say that as someone that really has no interest in narrative filmmaking personally, as far as shooting it. 

[webrunner5]

6 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

Not about ISO. I agree, I am 100% fine with a7iii iso. But about video capabilities. 4K60p and other video features (10bit, ...) that's the need. Don't forget the a7s line has 2 purpose : ISO and Video. 

Yeah but they might be able to make a A7 mk IV in 3 months that has 10 bit and 4K 60p. The a7 mk III is a run away hit, why not Kick it up a Notch like Emerald says! Or why not a A9 mk II?

[wolf33d]

Just now, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but they might be able to make a A7 mk IV in 3 months that has 10 bit and 4K 60p. The a7 mk III is a run away hit, why not Kick it up a Notch like Emerald says!

Please never work in marketing

[newfoundmass]

9 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Sad to say but Panasonic is going to Have to get off their ass and come out out with a Whole new focusing system or their goose is cooked, This is not 2010 anymore. Great AF is in in that segment, and they will not be able to give them away if they don't come up with a new way to do it. 2500 Dollar focusing turds are not a good thing to try to sell.

And with a DPAF Mirrorless on it's way from Canon, and Nikon doing one , Panasonic better grab onto their butt if they are half decent. Sony and Canon do have AF figured out.

I absolutely agree. They NEED to improve it, it's what the market wants and demands, but man is it wild to see how dismissive people are of it now as a camera. I see myself happily shooting with mine for the next several years. 

[webrunner5]

3 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

Please never work in marketing

Yeah but with Canon , Nikon coming out with new Mirrorless stuff you can't shit around and wait anymore. If you can make something happen you has better make something Happen!

I don't think Canon is going to come out with a Sony A9 beater right out of the box. But I really think they might be ready to really take an aggressive approach to this mirrorless stuff. If they don't I think they know there time in the sun is over forever. Sony is Out to KILL everyone.

[wolf33d]

Just now, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but with Canon , Nikon coming out with new Mirrorless stuff you can't shit around and wait anymore. If you can make something happen you has better make something Happen!

I agree, but it makes no sense to release an A7 mark IV now with video features that would piss off everybody. 

I agree that the low res sensor on A7S make little sense now but the video centric make sense so they should either release an A7S III with advanced video, or call it A7F for film.. I don't care call it Joe Burn if they want I just want a 4K60P little camera with good AF :). 

[newfoundmass]

3 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but they might be able to make a A7 mk IV in 3 months that has 10 bit and 4K 60p. The a7 mk III is a run away hit, why not Kick it up a Notch like Emerald says! Or why not a A9 mk II?

$

Literally the only reason. 

It really wouldn't surprise me to see the A7S III released next summer, next fall or even in the early winter of 2020. I mean, why not? People were already speculating early in 2017 that it'd be announced / released by the end of the year. A year later, nothing. And as crazy as it sounds, a lot of the people going bananas for the A7 III (and rightfully so) are going to go right out and buy the A7S III, unless they really don't have something big (which almost seems inconceivable at this point.) 

[webrunner5]

14 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

I agree, but it makes no sense to release an A7 mark IV now with video features that would piss off everybody. 

I agree that the low res sensor on A7S make little sense now but the video centric make sense so they should either release an A7S III with advanced video, or call it A7F for film.. I don't care call it Joe Burn if they want I just want a 4K60P little camera with good AF :). 

It might be a upscale A9 mk II that will happen instead of the A7s mk III. Why not. It isn't going to be cheap no matter what they call it. The A9 I think is going to be their Flagship camera forever. Why not put everything, including the kitchen sink in it?

Just think of a A9 with 10bit, 4K 60p, Variable Electronic ND filter, etc. Man now that would be a heck of a package. Sure it would hurt their FS5 mk II, but they would sell 50 times or more A9's than FS5's.

[wolf33d]

11 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

It might be a upscale A9 mk II that will happen instead of the A7s mk III. Why not. It isn't going to be cheap no matter what they call it. The A9 I think is going to be their Flagship camera forever. Why not put everything, including the kitchen sink in it?

Just think of a A9 with 10bit, 4K 60p, Variable Electronic ND filter, etc. Man now that would be a heck of a package.

Yes but they saw with the first A9 that few people were ready to throw 4.5K whereas the A7R/S line at 3K is much more reasonable. 

Let's see, by fall we will have it. 

[webrunner5]

16 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

Yes but they saw with the first A9 that few people were ready to throw 4.5K whereas the A7R/S line at 3K is much more reasonable. 

Let's see, by fall we will have it. 

I think we will see what Sony has before that. I believe both Canon and Nikon's Mirrorless cameras will be at least announced then, and Sony would like to beat them to the punch. Sort of what Blackmagic has done with the 4K BMPCC, only Sony will have it ready, not months from then.

And I think Sony could sell a A9 with all the toys at 4500 bucks like hotcakes for the form factor alone. Even a FS5 is big in this day and age size wise. Now whether Sony can put 10 bit 4K 60p in a body that small we will find out LoL.

I was down at my Son's house yesterday playing with his, new to him, but it looks like new with only 720 actuation's on it, Canon 5D mk III, and I had my Sony A7s with the Battery grip on it and the Canon was a F ing Sherman Tank size wise to it.Holly crap was it big as hell and heavy as hell also. I had forgot how big those damn things are!!

So Sony could come out with a new A10 or something called like it with a slightly bigger body and it would still look like a toy compared to a FF DSLR. I took my battery grip off and we laughed our ass off on the difference. It was crazy. But he really likes the Canon colors and the ML output. So he is really happy with it.

[zerocool22]

3 hours ago, wolf33d said:

4- @zerocool22 Why? There is no FF camera on the market with 4K60p and a good AF today except the 1DX which cost 2 arms, weight a truck and has poor codecs. The new Black Magic will give you the absolute best image under 4000$ for sure with 4K60p RAW. But at what cost? At the cost of small sensor size (acceptable) and no AF which for me is in the absolute must have feature list for any new video camera. After trying the A7R III on a gimbal I cannot imagine using anymore piece of shit AF like GH5 and so on as a main camera. 
Still I ordered the BM day one because as I said the image will be superb but for me it cannot be my main camera.
Depends on what you film of course! 

Well you kinda answered this yourself, I have absolutely no need for AF. 

[kye]

7 hours ago, jonpais said:

But the video Don Kotlos shared says they’re working on the a7s III...  ?

Ah, hadn't gotten around to watching that yet.

Pardon me!