Panasonic Teases New Compact Cinema Camera

[IronFilm]

On 12/05/2017 at 3:15 AM, mercer said:

Haha, we are still talking about two different kind of no budget productions. The kind I am referring to has a budget of a grand, follows Dogme 96 rules, is literally a ONE MAN band production, from writing to shooting(I am the crew) and editing. If it takes an extra 20 hours to process the footage, it's my time.

So for me Raw makes sense... or a camcorder... LOL.

Seriously, I would shoot Raw but if I thought that would slow the production up too much, I'd shoot it on a bridge camera... 65mm or S16... LOL.

If you are a one man crew then I think it is an even stronger argument not to shoot raw. You don't want to be fluffing around with AC or DIT duties.

[mercer]

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

If you are a one man crew then I think it is an even stronger argument not to shoot raw. You don't want to be fluffing around with AC or DIT duties.

I know I am in the minority here, but AC or DIT duties do not exist in any kind of production I am currently working on and to be honest, the idea that people like me, with all of the available equipment to make a professional looking movie, at our fingerprints, are treating their productions as if they were filmed on a Hollywood lot is completely nonsensical to me. But whatever, not really my place to judge other people's scenarios.  

But again I'm a hobbyist that works with friends and first time actors. The goal is to get in, get the shot and move on... a 3:1 shot ratio at most. I have enough cards to get an hours worth of footage and it's highly unlikely I will ever need anymore than that on a day's shoot.

I get why Raw would not be possible on low budget films when you have a Line Producer breathing down your neck, and every minute is scrutinized before lunch is called... but I don't have those limitations.

But I also see your point for my scenario where a simple production workflow could be more beneficial... it all depends on the project and schedule.

So to get back on topic, I still believe with the rumored cost of $6500 for this cineX Panny camera, it should output Raw, especially when every other camera, at that price range, shoots external or internal Raw. Just my opinion of course. 

[Kisaha]

@mercer Most amateurs do not own 12-17000$ budget equipment (6500$ camera + everything necessary for raw, +basic monitoring, + basic lightning, sound equipment, a few good lenses, capable editing suites), and you shouldn't either (except being financially well put), so I guess in this price range there isn't really a target group for companies.

You can't shot raw on cards, usually need more equipment to make that happen (e.g external video recorders) even in cameras cost north of 10.000$.

A short film can be easily achieved in 4-5 days of relaxed shooting, and everything rented can be just a small portion of that kind of equipment, and even you can hire a - low to medium - experienced sound man to do the sound with his equipment, and you should, there is no clear shortcut for good sound in small productions.

[mercer]

20 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

@mercer Most amateurs do not own 12-17000$ budget equipment (6500$ camera + everything necessary for raw, +basic monitoring, + basic lightning, sound equipment, a few good lenses, capable editing suites), and you shouldn't either (except being financially well put), so I guess in this price range there isn't really a target group for companies.

You can't shot raw on cards, usually need more equipment to make that happen (e.g external video recorders) even in cameras cost north of 10.000$.

A short film can be easily achieved in 4-5 days of relaxed shooting, and everything rented can be just a small portion of that kind of equipment, and even you can hire a - low to medium - experienced sound man to do the sound with his equipment, and you should, there is no clear shortcut for good sound in small productions.

Our conversation got slightly side tracked, but even if most amateurs can't afford to shoot Raw, it doesn't negate the fact that Panasonic should include it in a $6500 camera. Either way this is all conjecture at this point and we will know more in a few weeks. 

[Fritz Pierre]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Our conversation got slightly side tracked, but even if most amateurs can't afford to shoot Raw, it doesn't negate the fact that Panasonic should include it in a $6500 camera. Either way this is all conjecture at this point and we will know more in a few weeks. 

I'm speaking under correction here, but I don't believe the Varicam LT shoots RAW  without an external recorder....if I'm correct about this, and can't see how there would be any business incentive for them to put it in their next down the line Cine cam.

[mercer]

40 minutes ago, Fritz Pierre said:

I'm speaking under correction here, but I don't believe the Varicam LT shoots RAW  without an external recorder....if I'm correct about this, and can't see how there would be any business incentive for them to put it in their next down the line Cine cam.

Competition? The FS5 has it. The Ursa Pro has it. Without it, what benefit is there to get the Panasonic? And unless the camera is going to shoot 12 bit 4K at high frame rates, what would be the benefit of paying $4500 more for this camera when you can get a GH5?

[ade towell]

Can you shoot RAW internally on the Sony fs5?

[Kisaha]

@mercer

I am with you! Give me raw for 200euros! why not?! I am not against the workflow (even though it doesn't fit my profile at all), high end features are always welcomed, in whatever price range, my point is that in this entry level category, not a lot of people care about raw, most just need dependable, reliable machines to work well day in - day out, and even cheap media and less backup space play their role in this category (NX's H265 rule! as I keep 2 backup and 1 working project). That's is why the most used camera in my country is still C100 (even the older versions), and FS5 sell as well, mostly because of the e-ND function.

Ursa mini Pro with the EVF, SSDs and battery options are almost 10.000

FS5 needed a 600$ update for that (I am not sure what's the policy now) and you needed a top of the range external video recorder, while the 4300euros Canon C100markII does 35Mbps 1080p.

I am not trying to bring you down, I just like to be realistic with my expectations and the market we are in. If you don't understand why someone would choose a Canon C100mark II, a FS5, or the new Panasonic instead of the GH5 (even in this market) then these cameras are not for you, GH5 or an older Black Magic are just fine for your workflow I guess. To be honest, I would prefer a price closer to 5000euros, and let Canon/Sony to worry about their pricing, with or without raw.

[IronFilm]

13 hours ago, mercer said:

Competition? The FS5 has it. The Ursa Pro has it. Without it, what benefit is there to get the Panasonic? And unless the camera is going to shoot 12 bit 4K at high frame rates, what would be the benefit of paying $4500 more for this camera when you can get a GH5?

Blackmagic Design is a bit of an oddball here in terms of what they offer. So you can't expect Panasonic to give them much thought in terms of competition, they probably think of BMD as even less competition than JVC is?!?! (Which would be wrong to do so. But it would not surprise me if that is the way Panasonic thinks about it)

Panasonic will regard Canon and Sony as their main competition to beat.

Of course they'll beat Canon in terms of value for money, that shouldn't be hard to do! (Only thing Canon has got going for them is their "colors", & autofocus. Panasonic should be able to beat/meet one of those, and if we're very lucky they'll manage both.)

And Panasonic will "beat" (in their minds at least) Sony in features for your buck.

That doesn't however mean it will be better than the FS5 in terms of EVERY spec point! So yeah, zero surprise here if Panasonic skips external raw.

12 hours ago, ade towell said:

Can you shoot RAW internally on the Sony fs5?

Nope

[Hanriverprod]

4/3 rumors confirms new s35 sensor and ef mount.

http://www.43rumors.com/ft5-new-panasonic-varicam-has-a-s35-sensor-and-will-be-announced-on-friday/

[Fritz Pierre]

On 5/13/2017 at 8:45 AM, mercer said:

I know I am in the minority here, but AC or DIT duties do not exist in any kind of production I am currently working on and to be honest, the idea that people like me, with all of the available equipment to make a professional looking movie, at our fingerprints, are treating their productions as if they were filmed on a Hollywood lot is completely nonsensical to me. But whatever, not really my place to judge other people's scenarios.  

But again I'm a hobbyist that works with friends and first time actors. The goal is to get in, get the shot and move on... a 3:1 shot ratio at most. I have enough cards to get an hours worth of footage and it's highly unlikely I will ever need anymore than that on a day's shoot.

I get why Raw would not be possible on low budget films when you have a Line Producer breathing down your neck, and every minute is scrutinized before lunch is called... but I don't have those limitations.

But I also see your point for my scenario where a simple production workflow could be more beneficial... it all depends on the project and schedule.

So to get back on topic, I still believe with the rumored cost of $6500 for this cineX Panny camera, it should output Raw, especially when every other camera, at that price range, shoots external or internal Raw. Just my opinion of course. 

@mercer...you are right in what you're saying and I understand your choice with the 5D and the image that shooting RAW with it gives you access to...but that's not really a question Panasonic will be trying to address with this design...from a business standpoint you are not their target...you call yourself a hobbyist and you can spend a year or to shooting something that's lovely and as you self fund doing something else, that's OK...but people who are actually going to be spending somewhere between 6 & 12K depending on its base price and how it's configured, will have to earn money with this camera...unless they are Trustafarians, in which case they can probably get a used Alexa or an F65 or a Varicam...not even the Varicam LT records RAW internally and Panasonic has already stated that they would not obsolete the Varicam line with this camera...so regardless of all our personal needs and wants in a camera, Panny will have to make the best business decision for this cam as a company.

1 hour ago, Hanriverprod said:

4/3 rumors confirms new s35 sensor and ef mount.

http://www.43rumors.com/ft5-new-panasonic-varicam-has-a-s35-sensor-and-will-be-announced-on-friday/

Doubt that they have accurate info re this camera...Mitch on DVXUser is now working with Panasonic and their Cine Camera line (previously with CD recorder monitors)...the only info from him was that by the time he came on board, the camera was already in full developement...the rumor may be right...a guess based on the picture and the Varicam but at best it's a guess....I'm still guessing s35 sensor with locking m4/3 mount ala LS300.

[Hanriverprod]

36 minutes ago, Fritz Pierre said:

 

Doubt that they have accurate info re this camera...Mitch on DVXUser is now working with Panasonic and their Cine Camera line (previously with CD recorder monitors)...the only info from him was that by the time he came on board, the camera was already in full developement...the rumor may be right...a guess based on the picture and the Varicam but at best it's a guess....I'm still guessing s35 sensor with locking m4/3 mount ala LS300.

this is new info not based on the picture but a source and the site rates it a 5 which is the highest rating they give for it being right. But like you're saying who knows until it is officially revealed.

[mercer]

Yeah but the picture is literally the best indicator here since that is the camera under that shroud. It clearly does not show a Micro 4/3 mount, maybe it has swappable mounts, but it looks like the EF lens is flush to camera mount... so it is most likely an EF lens. And unless they are still using a version 1 model, the EF mount is probably pretty accurate. Now it doesn't necessarily make sense for them to do that, but if you had to be stuck with native glass, I'd rather have the EF than Micro 4/3, but I'd really, really would like to mount c-mounts and Canon FDs and Minoltas, but the productions these will be used for wouldn't probably do such a thing, so EF it is. 

[mercer]

1 hour ago, Fritz Pierre said:

@mercer...you are right in what you're saying and I understand your choice with the 5D and the image that shooting RAW with it gives you access to...but that's not really a question Panasonic will be trying to address with this design...from a business standpoint you are not their target...you call yourself a hobbyist and you can spend a year or to shooting something that's lovely and as you self fund doing something else, that's OK...but people who are actually going to be spending somewhere between 6 & 12K depending on its base price and how it's configured, will have to earn money with this camera...unless they are Trustafarians, in which case they can probably get a used Alexa or an F65 or a Varicam...not even the Varicam LT records RAW internally and Panasonic has already stated that they would not obsolete the Varicam line with this camera...so regardless of all our personal needs and wants in a camera, Panny will have to make the best business decision for this cam as a company.

Doubt that they have accurate info re this camera...Mitch on DVXUser is now working with Panasonic and their Cine Camera line (previously with CD recorder monitors)...the only info from him was that by the time he came on board, the camera was already in full developement...the rumor may be right...a guess based on the picture and the Varicam but at best it's a guess....I'm still guessing s35 sensor with locking m4/3 mount ala LS300.

Again yes, my discussion got sidetracked. And yes, obviously I am no company's target audience.

Now I assume Panasonic will not be including Raw export in their cameras and I think that's a big mistake.

Raw export and 5-axis IBIS will trump Canon's DPAF, IMO.

But to be fair, as a no budget filmmaker, I would never use a cinema camera anyway because it draws too much attention.

But I still think at $6500, the Panny should export Raw... if not what do they have that you can't get from Sony or Canon for less money?

[Fritz Pierre]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Again yes, my discussion got sidetracked. And yes, obviously I am no company's target audience.

Now I assume Panasonic will not be including Raw export in their cameras and I think that's a big mistake.

Raw export and 5-axis IBIS will trump Canon's DPAF, IMO.

But to be fair, as a no budget filmmaker, I would never use a cinema camera anyway because it draws too much attention.

But I still think at $6500, the Panny should export Raw... if not what do they have that you can't get from Sony or Canon for less money?

I agree...if I was shooting something alone I would never be out there with a Cine cam of any kind, nor even a rigged out a DSLR style cam...the more low key, the less chance of getting hassled... by police or robbers for that matter...also I should have included IMO in my previous post, as it's all just speculation on my part, as to what Panny will do with this camera...I am working on getting a feature into developement plus have a book optioned (true story) that would make an amazing series on Netflix or Amazon...I would not be a target for this cam either, as if my projects came through, I would opt for the Varicam LT, as it would be perfect for my purposes and already approved for shooting on, if Netflix produces your project.

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Yeah but the picture is literally the best indicator here since that is the camera under that shroud. It clearly does not show a Micro 4/3 mount, maybe it has swappable mounts, but it looks like the EF lens is flush to camera mount... so it is most likely an EF lens. And unless they are still using a version 1 model, the EF mount is probably pretty accurate. Now it doesn't necessarily make sense for them to do that, but if you had to be stuck with native glass, I'd rather have the EF than Micro 4/3, but I'd really, really would like to mount c-mounts and Canon FDs and Minoltas, but the productions these will be used for wouldn't probably do such a thing, so EF it is. 

Yes...but it's probably just a rendering...remember the Craft Camera...I think Panny posted a picture, that they knew would stir lots of speculation...the reason I'm hoping for a locking m4/3 mount, would be that then you could adapt anything and if the s35 sensor cropped to m4/3 and s16 as well as it's native s35 you would have an extremely versatile mount that would also encourage the purchase of Panny lenses, which makes sense for Panasonic business wise....anyway...they're certainly getting a lot of mileage with a rendering and a few forum threads lol??

2 hours ago, Hanriverprod said:

this is new info not based on the picture but a source and the site rates it a 5 which is the highest rating they give for it being right. But like you're saying who knows until it is officially revealed.

Agreed...the event is streaming live on their FB page on Friday at the Paramount Theatre...against my better judgement I'm so sucked in by now, I'll be compelled to watch...I'll post the link below in case you're interested.

 

https://www.facebook.com/events/1800044130310599/

[mercer]

2 hours ago, Fritz Pierre said:

I agree...if I was shooting something alone I would never be out there with a Cine cam of any kind, nor even a rigged out a DSLR style cam...the more low key, the less chance of getting hassled... by police or robbers for that matter...also I should have included IMO in my previous post, as it's all just speculation on my part, as to what Panny will do with this camera...I am working on getting a feature into developement plus have a book optioned (true story) that would make an amazing series on Netflix or Amazon...I would not be a target for this cam either, as if my projects came through, I would opt for the Varicam LT, as it would be perfect for my purposes and already approved for shooting on, if Netflix produces your project.

Yes...but it's probably just a rendering...remember the Craft Camera...I think Panny posted a picture, that they knew would stir lots of speculation...the reason I'm hoping for a locking m4/3 mount, would be that then you could adapt anything and if the s35 sensor cropped to m4/3 and s16 as well as it's native s35 you would have an extremely versatile mount that would also encourage the purchase of Panny lenses, which makes sense for Panasonic business wise....anyway...they're certainly getting a lot of mileage with a rendering and a few forum threads lol??

Agreed...the event is streaming live on their FB page on Friday at the Paramount Theatre...against my better judgement I'm so sucked in by now, I'll be compelled to watch...I'll post the link below in case you're interested.

 

https://www.facebook.com/events/1800044130310599/

That's great news, Fritz. I wish you luck. I wouldn't count out the C200 as an option for you either. From the pictures it looks like it may be a beast of a camera. The 4K from the XC10 is the nicest 4K I have ever seen on a sub $2000 camera, so with a S35mm sensor, it should be gorgeous.

[Fritz Pierre]

2 hours ago, mercer said:

That's great news, Fritz. I wish you luck. I wouldn't count out the C200 as an option for you either. From the pictures it looks like it may be a beast of a camera. The 4K from the XC10 is the nicest 4K I have ever seen on a sub $2000 camera, so with a S35mm sensor, it should be gorgeous.

Thanks Mercer...though still  a long ways from paradise??...though if we don't plug away and dream, we'd never get anything done in the first place...there's certainly no longer any shortage of tools to get the job done these days!!

[jhnkng]

While I agree with everyone here regarding not needing RAW and Panasonic not putting RAW output on a $6500 camera, I'm a one man band and I've been shooting 3:1 Compressed RAW on my BMMCC exclusively for my last few projects, and it ROCKS. 1080p RAW is great for run and gun, you get to adjust white balance after the fact, highlights look nicer, it's a little bit more forgiving if you don't nail your exposure. Data rates are manageable (I get 70min per 128gb SD card) and SD media is cheap. Resolve 14 handles BMMCC Compressed RAW like a champ, and now that I can edit, grade, and mix audio in the same program I don't even need proxies. 

4K RAW though... I don't think I'd want to wrestle that monster. Wrangling 4k prores from the GH4 was enough to send me back to 1080p. I don't know if it would be possible but it'd be great if Atomos could introduce compressed CDNG recording at different ratios, like REDCODE, for cameras that output RAW over SDI, and I'd certainly like to see Panasonic offer the option of a paid RAW output upgrade even if they charge through the nose for it.

[Alt Shoo]

On 5/13/2017 at 2:44 PM, mercer said:

Competition? The FS5 has it. The Ursa Pro has it. Without it, what benefit is there to get the Panasonic? And unless the camera is going to shoot 12 bit 4K at high frame rates, what would be the benefit of paying $4500 more for this camera when you can get a GH5?

Speaking of competition what about AJA Cion and Kinefinity Terra?? They have RAW and at a good price too.

[mercer]

12 minutes ago, Alt Shoo said:

Speaking of competition what about AJA Cion and Kinefinity Terra?? They have RAW and at a good price too.

That's a good point. I also think Fritz was hinting at this, but who is this camera geared towards? Canon gets blasted for their lack of tech but their cameras are geared toward very specific shooters. The C100 i & ii are geared towards the low to mid budget event videographer and documentary filmmaker. The FS5 is geared to the mid level videographer and filmmaker, so of course they would have better specs. Who exactly is this cineX camera designed for? I would assume it's for mid level professionals. If it is touted as a Varicam Mini, then it has a narrative lineage, so the specs need to be at a certain level. And IMO 10bit 4K 60p isn't enough to justify a $6500 price tag. Now if it has 5-axis IBIS with either internal or external Raw... even at 10bit 2K up to 72fps and this camera is a winner. Otherwise you may as well just buy a GH5 or an LS300.