Panasonic Teases New Compact Cinema Camera

[BTM_Pix]

It seems the quickest, easiest and probably lucrative thing riding the crest of the GH5 buzz would be to swap out the GH4 sensor from the DVX-200 for the GH5 one and take the lens off it.

And not paint it red this time.

I picked up a used LS300 a couple of days ago and its a very compelling package with the combination of sensor size, the versatility of the mft mount and some smart stuff from JVC.

I've had native mft lenses on it (which you can use way beyond the 82% scaled coverage that JVC recommend for mft by the way), PL cinema lens, long Nikon primes with and without speedbooster and small Contax primes which it can magically turn into par focal constant aperture zooms complete with a rocker switch! All with the convenience of built in NDs, physical switches, XLR's etc

So it can go from stripped down shot grabber to cinema style to sports and wildlife broadcast camera and all points in between within a few seconds.

That type of functionality with the goods on offer from the GH5 like IBIS and 10 bit and so on would be a pretty incredible camera and theres no reason it couldn't come in at the same price or less than the DVX-200.

With all of that capability, would the sensor size be an absolute deal breaker?

[Kisaha]

@BTM_PixYes, of course. The aforementioned JVC, that I so much respect and use lately, has a S35 variable sensor. You can't compete with the C100s and FS5s of this world with a smaller sensor.

We are using S35 for so much time, and I personally love it. No full frame, no m43; S35!

The solution of course is the variable sensor, pleases everyone (including you and me!).

DVX-200 still costs 4195$ and has a sticker saying "Top Seller" on B&H!

[BTM_Pix]

19 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

@BTM_PixYes, of course. The aforementioned JVC, that I so much respect and use lately, has a S35 variable sensor. You can't compete with the C100s and FS5s of this world with a smaller sensor.

We are using S35 for so much time, and I personally love it. No full frame, no m43; S35!

The solution of course is the variable sensor, pleases everyone (including you and me!).

DVX-200 still costs 4195$ and has a sticker saying "Top Seller" on B&H!

I'd see it more as a refresh of the DVX-200 internally with the lens removed so they could get it into a price range closer to £3K than the £5K of the FS5.

Might be easier for them to own a market segment of their own and bring an existing user base who are invested in the mount up with them than try and slug it out with Sony in a market where they wouldn't have a price advantage?

An integral speedbooster would be the way to arrive at an attractive compromise if they could pull it off 

[Cinegain]

Well, you've said it yourself... the LS300 adds so much, just by having a different sensor size. Plus, maybe the GH5 has a little bit better highlight roll-off, but its dynamic range still sorta pretty much sucks (but I'm glad to take the penalty and try to make it work, because it's so damn small and lightweight) and if you want to go from shot grabber to cinema style, it really helps to have that dynamic range on your side. IBIS... surely would be great, but I highly doubt any of these type of production cameras will have it anytime soon. I'd probably keep it tripod bound 90% of the time anyways, to be honest. That's also why I think it's a different beast from the GH5 that you would in fact use more handheld and for getting all them angles. Like I said before, the GH5 now has that XLR unit and you could use the Aputure DEC vari-ND, but surely having that on the camera itself alreay can't be the only thing it has to offer. Everybody's so obsessed with Blackmagic, because you get thick material with tons of dynamic range that can be pushed around quite a bit. Now, straight-up internal ProRes/RAW might be a litle too much to ask, but if they can deliver lovely images from a S35 sensor... then man, this is a force not to be reckoned with!

Answering your question for me requires the knowledge of the price this thing will be labelled at... if it tries to compete with all the others at a fair price, it has to come with that S35 sensor. If it's merely thought of as a production style GH5 and priced only at a fair up from the GH5, like similar to the DVX200/LS300 at around $4k, then the sensor size isn't a dealbreaker. I've also been saying* that they should release two cameras. The GH5 and then the VC5, a VariCam version of the GH5 that's production ready, so actually, they might've listened to earlier me and are now walking around with dropped jaws because I'm telling them to do S35. But again... depends on the price. But they're the ones that are showing this with a Sigma lens and not promoting their new line-up that has an improved iris for video and whatnot, so... they brought this on themselves. There's certainly something to say for S35 and frankly... I would love it. But here as well. I've always known what's up from the GH4, yet, that never let me to buy a Canon Cx00, URSA Mini, FS5 or anything... priced attractively... and I really might. Again, if it wants to compete with the established guys in that corner of the market, they need to bring it. But I think there's not really going to be much that will separate it from the competition... but the thing they can do is fill the gap between your GH4, GH5, NX1, X-T2, A7S, A7SII, A7RII cameras and those other guys at over $5k and compete on price. I think that would be the move here. But we'll see I guess.

* 7 months ago...

Quote

I already thought it would make sense for Panasonic to have their consumer flagship hybrid camera be the next iteration of the GH-line. But there's a difference between people using it for stills & video (hybridly) and the ones who purely try to push out the best video and whereas the latter might gladly pay something in the 1999-2999 USD range for a camera with sick video features and specs, that might be way over the heads of many casual hybrid shooters. That's why I thought it would make sense to on the one hand create a GH5 for the hybrid shooter that needs to be affordable and on the one hand a version up from that, really pumping up the features for dedicated cinema style shooting like V-LOG L and an anamorphic mode. Maybe calling it the VC5 (VariCam 5) and making it a little bigger than the GH5, with proper interfaces and video optimization, including sound, storage and monitoring solutions. Because, there's a group that likes the GH4 as a stills camera and video tool. And there's a group that would like to shoot on an ARRI, RED, Sony, Blackmagic, Kinefinity or what have you, but aren't really eager to spend 3000+ USD on a body and modules.

I think what they've done here... is that the G80 is the new flagship hybrid model (so instead of the beforementioned GH5). For people who want the best combination of stills and video but at an affordable level. And then there's going to be the GH5 (which I imagined could be branded the VC5 before), that will be a beast for video, but comes at a premo pricetag. I'm liking this approach! It seems to make sense.

First thing this year:

On 2-1-2017 at 5:38 AM, Cinegain said:

And there's an undeniable advantage to a bigger sensor, it just catches more quantity and hence quality light. But I'm just not into fullframe as I don't like DSLRs and mirrorless there's only Sony and I'm not really their biggest believer, getting into a fullframe system is just too expensive and needing those 35mm image circle covering lenses kinda defeats the purpose of having a small camera, if anything, it makes it unbalanced to shoot with. I'd rather have APS-C. I'd still have the option to use a focal reducer and boost it towards fullframe if I absolutely have to. Thing is with Sony APS-C, that's just the thing you might be doing as their are hardly any native APS-C lenses for it. The performance is 'on fleek', though. Can't say nothing bad purely on image quality (although we've learned that their standard colorprofiles causes problems when left untouched). But Sony has other problems they need to address. If they actually did that... I could perhaps even see me getting one someday. But I imagine they'll go straight for the paper specs and not the reallife handling of the camera. Which means that the APS-C crown goes to Fujifilm. If only Panasonic and Olympus were into APS-C. But... they aren't, they seem very commited to that MFT mount. Funny enough though, the Varicam does feature S35 and offers... wait for it... the EF mount. If they could just borrow the color science and dualpixel AF too and throw it into the VC5 (VariCam5, still hoping for this one! Something up from the GH-range, but not quite cinema, more like Kinefinity). Or... Nikon... now, I'm not actually religious, but I've been praying for a mirrorless APS-C 4K Nikon since forever. But I guess if you believe in noone, noone will answer. Better not to look at what you don't have and do look at what you do have, anyways. That said... happy new gear! 2017... it's going to be an interesting one.

Just... the GH5 might've been an awesome step up, but never really went all-in on the VariCam-heritage and productivity I was hinting at. They've put it right there on 1999, so that kinda reflects that. But it's really exciting to see that they're working on something up from that. It really comes down to pricing for me now.

[BTM_Pix]

5 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

Well, you've said it yourself... the LS300 adds so much, just by having a different sensor size. Plus, maybe the GH5 has a little bit better highlight roll-off, but its dynamic range still sorta pretty much sucks (but I'm glad to take the penalty and try to make it work, because it's so damn small and lightweight) and if you want to go from shot grabber to cinema style, it really helps to have that dynamic range on your side. IBIS... surely would be great, but I highly doubt any of these type of production cameras will have it anytime soon. I'd probably keep it tripod bound 90% of the time anyways, to be honest. That's also why I think it's a different beast from the GH5 that you would in fact use more handheld and for getting all them angles. Like I said before, the GH5 now has that XLR unit and you could use the Aputure DEC vari-ND, but surely having that on the camera itself alreay can't be the only thing it has to offer. Everybody's so obsessed with Blackmagic, because you get thick material with tons of dynamic range that can be pushed around quite a bit. Now, straight-up internal ProRes/RAW might be a litle too much to ask, but if they can deliver lovely images from a S35 sensor... then man, this is a force not to be reckoned with!

 

I'd be interested to see them side by side to be honest.

The versatility of the LS300 has had me wetting myself but I'll reserve judgement over the image quality for a while. 

5 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

 

Answering your question for me requires the knowledge of the price this thing will be labelled at... if it tries to compete with all the others at a fair price, it has to come with that S35 sensor. If it's merely thought of as a production style GH5 and priced only at a fair up from the GH5, like similar to the DVX200/LS300 at around $4k, then the sensor size isn't a dealbreaker. I've also been saying that they should release two cameras. The GH5 and then the VC5, a VariCam version of the GH5 that's production ready, so actually, they might've listened to earlier me and are now walking around with dropped jaws because I'm telling them to do S35. But again... depends on the price. But they're the ones that are showing this with a Sigma lens and not promoting their new line-up that has an improved iris for video and whatnot, so... they brought this on themselves. There's certainly something to say for S35 and frankly... I would love it. But here as well. I've always known what's up from the GH4, yet, that never let me to buy a Canon Cx00, URSA Mini, FS5 or anything... priced attractively... and I really might. Again, if it wants to compete with the established guys in that corner of the market, they need to bring it. But I think there's not really going to be much that will separate it from the competition... but the thing they can do is fill the gap between your GH4, GH5, NX1, X-T2, A7S, A7SII, A7RII cameras and those other guys at over $5k and compete on price. I think that would be the move here. But we'll see I guess.

Yeah, I think this is where they should be heading myself at least in the short term.

There is a big hinterland between the SLR form factor cameras and the FS5 etc

Thought it would be an area for BM to dominate but they seem to be leaving it alone and going after the £5K+ area. Who knows, there might be a very good reason for that in that people like the idea of a production style GH5 but don't actually like the idea of buying one in the end!

[webrunner5]

Well there is nothing saying Panasonic, along with Leica, can't make APSC lenses. Why not? Couple of primes. couple of zooms, well you are off to the races!

[Cinegain]

Yeah, over a year ago*, we were still discussing what a GH5 could/should look like and about the possibility of an APS-C sensor, to which I said:

Quote

No need for FF. The new APS-C Sony A6300 can close the gap to FF now with a focal reducer... that's the way to go what I'm concerned. I'd rather be using smaller lenses though. Something like what the JVC GY-LS300 did actually isn't even a half bad of an idea... you could have an all new APS-C line-up with MFT mount. Then still use existing MFT lenses and crop the APS-C sensor accordingly.

For the sensor 20MP sounds good. 24 as well. Take some of the Samsung NX1 chip infrastructure, they know how to pull data from the sensor effectively. Currently there's nothing between 1080p and 2160p. Howabout giving us GoPro standards 1440p and 2.7K? Blackmagic 2.5K? That allows for faster framerates, without having to resort to 1080p. Canon has set a new standard: 4K60p. In order for the image to be any good though, you gotta have that bitrate. So I can imagine they keep it a little tighter, to 48p or 30p. Then though, you can have 2.7 and 2.5K at 60p and 1440 at 120, 1080p at 240! Bits and codec. I hope they can do internal 10-bit ProRes.

Bunch of other stuff would be cool to implement, like in-body stabilization. But we'll just have to wait 'n see.

But the fact that they're showing off the 'A' on the lens, an existing lens... 'Sigma Art', and a fullframe one at that and not trying to hide that, makes me highly doubt this is in the works, though.

It would actually be sorta cool if they only offered two flavors of factory speedboosted mounts: 'Contax/Zeiss and Leica-R' and said 'go use that'.

[webrunner5]

28 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

Yeah, over a year ago*, we were still discussing what a GH5 could/should look like and about the possibility of an APS-C sensor, to which I said:

But the fact that they're showing off the 'A' on the lens, an existing lens... 'Sigma Art', and a fullframe one at that and not trying to hide that, makes me highly doubt this is in the works, though.

It would actually be sorta cool if they only offered two flavors of factory speedboosted mounts: 'Contax/Zeiss and Leica-R' and said 'go use that'.

Interesting thought. I will have to think about that LoL.

[Fritz Pierre]

The camera will be more expensive but the image qualty and features  will leave their competitors completely behind...and the secret is simple...it will lie in the image quality...does'nt really matter what people WANT to pay...it matters what they need to charge to be able to produce the camera...the price will be justified by the image...Panny is pulling away from the pack...and although most features are still being shot on the Alexa, Netflix is moving away from RED and to Varicam 35 &L?..this will just too expensive forward those who love buying and talking about using them...for people who get paid for their work, it will be a must have and they'll sell a lot of the...I suspect around the $9000 mark

[webrunner5]

16 minutes ago, Fritz Pierre said:

The camera will be more expensive but the image qualty and features  will leave their competitors completely behind...and the secret is simple...it will lie in the image quality...does'nt really matter what people WANT to pay...it matters what they need to charge to be able to produce the camera...the price will be justified by the image...Panny is pulling away from the pack...and although most features are still being shot on the Alexa, Netflix is moving away from RED and to Varicam 35 &L?..this will just too expensive forward those who love buying and talking about using them...for people who get paid for their work, it will be a must have and they'll sell a lot of the...I suspect around the $9000 mark

Ehh, not too sure, the Varicam LT is 14 grand, if they lower it to 9999, which they need too by the way, where does this new camera fit in? You can probably buy a used LT for 9 grand now. I don't see it.

You can buy a Sony FS7 mkII for less than 10 grand. I think they are worth it for the Variable ND filter alone, that is a killer ass feature to have, not counting XAVC up to 600 Mb/s.

It is going to have to have some super Mojo Mama to bring that kind of money.

[Fritz Pierre]

The Varicam LT is 17,000 with no EVF batteries or media...it comes with the controller, but completed it runs somewhere aroung 23 to.29000 ...and it's a bargain for what you get for that price...as will be this new camera

[webrunner5]

31 minutes ago, Fritz Pierre said:

The Varicam LT is 17,000 with no EVF batteries or media...it comes with the controller, but completed it runs somewhere aroung 23 to.29000 ...and it's a bargain for what you get for that price...as will be this new camera

14 Grand new price. Granted that is bare but. If you already have the media, AB batteries, and a external monitor, well you are shooting for cheap for what you pay for the Brain.  You are probably going to use the LT's for B Cam stuff anyways there are not enough external controls, no LCD. They are not really A Cams.

So your new Panny whatever could be in the 9 grand range, but lot of competition in that slot, new and used. Wow, that would take some Big balls to jump into the middle of that. You are talking used Red Weapons, Arri Alexa for a bit more used, but if you NEED 4k they won't really work. Used Sony F5, Canon C300 mkII, etc., etc. God scary.

But if you know more than I do, which is pretty much nothing about it, then you maybe onto something.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1226386-REG/panasonic_au_v35lt1g_varicam_lt_4k_s35.html

 

[ade towell]

back on the dvxuser thread, Mitch Gross who is Cinema Product Manager for Panasonic USA says that it will be an innovative camera...make of that what you will....

[Cinegain]

They also said the autofocus was going to hit it out of the park. Homerun? More like, back home to the drawing board. But time will tell.

[Orangenz]

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

, that is a killer ass feature to have,

I'm going to have to remember that interesting turn of phrase

[ade towell]

24 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

They also said the autofocus was going to hit it out of the park. Homerun? More like, back home to the drawing board. But time will tell.

Ha - Mitch has nothing to do with the GH5, he's looking after Varicam and DVX200 and presumably this new camera. He's not prone to hyperbole and is super helpful fella, but I get your point

[AaronChicago]

13 hours ago, Fritz Pierre said:

Still think you should do a small comparison between the GH5 and the Ursa 4.6k..if you find yourself with a bit of spare time??...even if just comparing footage you've shot with both...I remember your early footage you posted shooting with the 12-35 and the GH4 and it was lovely...

I am this weekend in fact. Shooting a music video with both. It's mostly anamorphic, but I'm going to shoot a couple of takes with our actress using the Sigma 18-35 on both the GH5 and UM46K.

[Arikhan]

After the DVX200 came out, I bought it. To be honest, I wasn't experienced at that time with settings, tweaking and getting the best results of a more advanced camera, but my experience was a desaster:

• horrible, piggish colors when speaking about footage out of the camera ("as it is"), though Panasonic advertized the device as good for news gathering and documentary shooting
• though I am not a pixel peeper, the DVX200 had horrible - and visible -  noise even in daylight footage and good lighting (without contrasty situations like contre-jour), e.g. in tree bark and leafs...

After seeing in some forums many other people facing the same problems and a Barry Green first claiming the people complaining "have to learn to handle the camera" and - after many complains of pro and broadcast shooters -  claiming, that filmers have to use V-Log to get usable results, I was shocked by such brazenness when speaking of a camera (that time) costing about 4.500 Euro in Germany, advertized for what I did. I returned it after 6 days and I was not the only one who did this. Never looked back.

After some firmware upgrades, they made the DVX200 better, noise got less and the color science (OOC) got more pleasant indeed. The attitude of companies pocketing immediately buyers money, but claiming to deliver the advertized features with an update later or in "next future" is unacceptable in my eyes. Though I still use two Panasonic cameras, I am done with this company in regard of buying a professional film or video camera from them without testing it excessively. Buyers are NOT beta testers for impertinent PR morons and marketing liars...

@Marketing morons: Don't praise too much theoretical specs and bells & whistles - show me the advertized features, ergonomic, handling and results first, and then I'll give you my money.

[mercer]

It's difficult to really guess the price because we don't know enough about the features. Based on the size alone and believing it's S35, we have to assume they are going after the C100ii and FS5 market. But until we know if it outputs Raw, or even a compressed Raw, we just don't know. With the competive price to feature ratio of the GH5, I would assume it will be on the low end, between 4-5k. If they release it under 4K, this should be a grand slam for Panasonic. 

Also we don't even know the model number/name... if it's an AF200, it should be on the lower side. If it's part of their Varicam line, it will be on the higher side.

[Fritz Pierre]

9 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

14 Grand new price. Granted that is bare but. If you already have the media, AB batteries, and a external monitor, well you are shooting for cheap for what you pay for the Brain.  You are probably going to use the LT's for B Cam stuff anyways there are not enough external controls, no LCD. They are not really A Cams.

Looking at the B&H promotion Panasonics had to rebates on the LT...the 1st at 4500 were on camera packages and ended March 17th....this second rebate came in around Feb 15 and ends tomorrow...the body on the camera is $16,500 and they are just releasing a FW update that will give the LT 240 fps RAW IN 2K...I'm not sure what camera you would use as an A cam to the LT as B cam...would be funny if the producer stepped up and asked why the best image was coming from the B cam lol

 

9 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

So your new Panny whatever could be in the 9 grand range, but lot of competition in that slot, new and used. Wow, that would take some Big balls to jump into the middle of that. You are talking used Red Weapons, Arri Alexa for a bit more used, but if you NEED 4k they won't really work. Used Sony F5, Canon C300 mkII, etc., etc. God scary.

I don't see any Alexa or Mini for under 25000 used in ready to shoot condition and the other cameras I consider are Panasonics (no reality basis in my discussion here...just fun speculation)...so to me the Canons, Reds or Sonys are not Panny target...image wise...the target is their market share though....but let's put a RED weapon in there....what is the cost of a used RED Weapon kitted out to shoot.... $9000 or in that range???...anyway...nobody knows and we can just dream about our subjective needs and what Panny will want for them...in 5 weeks we can play "who got the closest" and I'll probably be the farthest off ? 

 

2 hours ago, AaronChicago said:

I am this weekend in fact. Shooting a music video with both. It's mostly anamorphic, but I'm going to shoot a couple of takes with our actress using the Sigma 18-35 on both the GH5 and UM46K.

Aaron....that will be fantastic...I have to say I'm really looking forward to seeing what you get out of the GH5 AND the Ursa 4.6K...both ridiculously priced cameras for the quality they produce....good luck with your shoot!

@webrunner5....the funniest thing for me personally, is that in all this excitement and waiting for the GH5 till June and now this new camera....my favorite image out of any camera available today is still a 1080p image out of the Sony F35...now if you want something that looks like film...that image is glorious IMO