Panasonic Teases New Compact Cinema Camera

[mercer]

25 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Who cares when you can buy a Varicam new in that price range??

Because a Varicam is nowhere near as good as an Arri. 

[Emanuel]

6 minutes ago, mercer said:

Because a Varicam is nowhere near as good as an Arri. 

I find it a better option:

https://agdok.de/de_DE/cameratest

[mercer]

5 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

I find it a better option:

https://agdok.de/de_DE/cameratest

I guess that's why they make vanilla and chocolate but I don't think the Varicam beat any of the cinema cameras except for the Sony. It was much better than the hybrids though but against the cinema cameras, the highlights looked bad to me. It was better than the Pocket, theoretically, but the Pocket has a more interesting look IMO. As I said in Webrunner's post on the same topic... the biggest surprise in that test is the BMCC underexposed. 

[Emanuel]

13 minutes ago, mercer said:

I guess that's why they make vanilla and chocolate but I don't think the Varicam beat any of the cinema cameras except for the Sony. It was much better than the hybrids though but against the cinema cameras, the highlights looked bad to me. It was better than the Pocket, theoretically, but the Pocket has a more interesting look IMO. As I said in Webrunner's post on the same topic... the biggest surprise in that test is the BMCC underexposed. 

I think the most interesting of these forums is the plurality of opinions and perspectives.

Some of my own filmography has been shot on Arri cameras for various reasons.

I'd still pick the Varicam without hesitating not even for a second, despite my love for Blackmagic and DSLRs when their form factor is what I'm looking for.

Varicam outcome is my favorite bet for acquisition BTW, as of now. Nothing shot there, yet. Funny, isn't it?

[Hanriverprod]

43rumors claims a tip said this was the specs (ft3):

S35 sensor (from the Varicam LT)
EF-mount
14+ stops of DR
4k/1080p 10-bit 4:2:2 recording
Possible Prores recording
Two XLR inputs
SDI/HDMI output
Dual SDXC slots
Detachable sidegrip and top handle
Price: $6500

http://www.43rumors.com/ft3-are-those-the-new-panasonic-camcorder-specs/#disqus_thread

 

[AaronChicago]

1 hour ago, Hanriverprod said:

43rumors claims a tip said this was the specs (ft3):

S35 sensor (from the Varicam LT)
EF-mount
14+ stops of DR
4k/1080p 10-bit 4:2:2 recording
Possible Prores recording
Two XLR inputs
SDI/HDMI output
Dual SDXC slots
Detachable sidegrip and top handle
Price: $6500

http://www.43rumors.com/ft3-are-those-the-new-panasonic-camcorder-specs/#disqus_thread

 

That would be great. Although what would separate it from the Varicam LT other than dual ISO? It would be half the price.

[pablogrollan]

1 hour ago, AaronChicago said:

That would be great. Although what would separate it from the Varicam LT other than dual ISO? It would be half the price.

Yep, and still it could be too expensive if it is indeed aimed at the C100 MKII/ FS5 crowd. Unless we see some extra features like high framerates and so on, I doubt the Varicam badge is incentive enough. For that price you are getting close to the FS7 or FS5 with Raw recording... not to mention the gap with the C100 or a rumoured C200.

[Kisaha]

This rumor seems like a sure bet. Anyone that started shooting video in 2016 could predict such a thing. What I found interesting is that more and more people are calling for a variable sensor. That would be amazing, and one step beyond C100/FS5 (but similar to LS300).

[AaronChicago]

The Varicam sensor crushes the C100/FS7/FS5's. $6500 is a great price. They'd have to cripple something in order to not cannibalize the Varicam LT.

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, Hanriverprod said:

43rumors claims a tip said this was the specs (ft3):

S35 sensor (from the Varicam LT)
EF-mount
14+ stops of DR
4k/1080p 10-bit 4:2:2 recording
Possible Prores recording
Two XLR inputs
SDI/HDMI output
Dual SDXC slots
Detachable sidegrip and top handle
Price: $6500

http://www.43rumors.com/ft3-are-those-the-new-panasonic-camcorder-specs/#disqus_thread

 

 

OMG!! Would be kick ass!!

But I really hope they go for a positive locking Micro Four Thirds mount instead. Would be better optics (in the marketing sense! But true in the other sense too!) for Panasonic and the MFT Consortium. 

 

9 hours ago, AaronChicago said:

That would be great. Although what would separate it from the Varicam LT other than dual ISO? It would be half the price.

Oh heaps of things they could gimp on it to differentiate it from the Varicam LT. Such as: no raw, no interchangeable mount, no 4K 60fps, no genlock, or no 2K 240fps. They might even do something really stupid like have no built in ND filters, or no timecode. 

7 hours ago, pablogrollan said:

Yep, and still it could be too expensive if it is indeed aimed at the C100 MKII/ FS5 crowd. Unless we see some extra features like high framerates and so on, I doubt the Varicam badge is incentive enough. For that price you are getting close to the FS7 or FS5 with Raw recording... not to mention the gap with the C100 or a rumoured C200.

Image quality, 4K 10bit 422 internal, and dual ISO alone should be enough to tempt people away from buying a C100mk2/FS5

This rumored price is only $750 more than an FS5, basically nothing at all when you're considering a camera at this price point. 

It is $1.5K more than a C100mk2, which is not that much when you're thinking about a camera that costs $6.5K, but still a decent size leap up in cost.... however the features leap is MASSIVE over a C100mk2

And when the C200 (or C100 mk3) comes out, the pricing gap between this and Panasonic one should be almost nothing at all, yet Panasonic will still have a big lead over the Canon in terms of capabilities. 

[Fritz Pierre]

17 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Oh heaps of things they could gimp on it to differentiate it from the Varicam LT. Such as: no raw, no interchangeable mount, no 4K 60fps, no genlock, or no 2K 240fps. They might even do something really stupid like have no built in ND filters, or no timecode.

+1 for the M4/3 locking mount on variable S35 sensor....Panasonic knows this is what their M4/3 customers want and it makes it like the AF100 except, with a professional weight infinitely lens adaptable mount and S35 sensor...that with some internal ND and good image in 4K up to say 60p and S35 that can crop to m4/3 and also to S16...lots of really interesting S16 glass out there...I think the price will be higher but they may also go 12bit instead of 10...as they sell M4/3 lenses that would make sense to from a business perspective....SD for media would surprise me....SSD is much more robust and you can record Prores directly to the cards...SD neither seems robust or fast enough.

The Varicam LT also records 2K RAW @ 240p to a CD recorder now...curious about your impression of the LT when you finish your shoot with it!

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

 

 

 

Oh heaps of things they could gimp on it to differentiate it from the Varicam LT. Such as: no raw, no interchangeable mount, no 4K 60fps, no genlock, or no 2K 240fps. They might even do something really stupid like have no built in ND filters, or no timecode. 

 

 

No way this thing is doing Raw for 6500 bucks. You are probably right on that point.

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, Fritz Pierre said:

+1 for the M4/3 locking mount on variable S35 sensor....Panasonic knows this is what their M4/3 customers want and it makes it like the AF100 except, with a professional weight infinitely lens adaptable mount and S35 sensor...that with some internal ND and good image in 4K up to say 60p and S35 that can crop to m4/3 and also to S16...lots of really interesting S16 glass out there...I think the price will be higher but they may also go 12bit instead of 10...as they sell M4/3 lenses that would make sense to from a business perspective....SD for media would surprise me....SSD is much more robust and you can record Prores directly to the cards...SD neither seems robust or fast enough.

It seems so damn obvious to bring it out with a locking MFT mount! But companies often do strange and silly things instead.... so I won't count on it having a locking MFT mount :-( 

SSDs will not happen. It will be SD cards, or P2 cards of some sort (I hope not.... I'd rather XQD or CFast, but this is Panasonic so they'll prefer their own P2 system of cards). 

The fastest SD cards are damn fast now, so I think it is very sensible indeed for a camera at this price point to use SD cards. 
 

2 hours ago, Fritz Pierre said:

The Varicam LT also records 2K RAW @ 240p to a CD recorder now...curious about your impression of the LT when you finish your shoot with it!

Well, I'm the soundie on the project not in the camera department. But I'll give what feedback I can :-) As I'll be working somewhat closely with it. 

[pablogrollan]

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

This rumored price is only $750 more than an FS5, basically nothing at all when you're considering a camera at this price point.

True, but you also have to consider the very, very useful electronic variable ND of the FS5, its ability to shoot over 200 fps with top 1080p 422 10 bit quality (plus ridiculously high framerates at lower quality), the adaptability of E-mount, and the fact that 500$ plus renting an Oddissey (or a Shogun) gives you gorgeous raw video.

The size and type of camera point to a broadcast-documentary style for a single operator with occasional use as cinema camera, just like an FS5 or C100. I'm not sure the better Varicam sensor outweighs the versatility of the FS5, not at that level at least, where versatility is key. For more refined uses (commercials and narrative) where the FS5 is a very portable B-cam I could see the better Varicam image worth the price difference.

I mostly use the FS5 and FS7 (owned), and whenever 422 10 bit is not enough for the job, I rent. I personally find the FS5 much more comfortable to use than the FS7, C100 or C300, and I'd be tempted by this camera if it were as useful as an FS5 -unlikely- with better IQ -likely-.

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

SSDs will not happen. It will be SD cards, or P2 cards of some sort

My bet is on SDXC, too. P2 cards are dead, as most absurdly overpriced and obsolete propietary media (Sony SxS anyone?) in favour of more readily available and universal media.

[Fritz Pierre]

11 hours ago, IronFilm said:

SSDs will not happen. It will be SD cards, or P2 cards of some sort (I hope not.... I'd rather XQD or CFast, but this is Panasonic so they'll prefer their own P2 system of cards). 

I'm curious as to why you're so certain no SSD....The camera is physically large enough to use it....add to that shooting in Prores and boom 800 Mbps in AFFORDABLE robust media...P2 express cards are not "affordable"  and SD may be fast, but when it comes to robust it does not really tick the Pro box....I also think Panasonic may be aiming for clients who already like and use say GH cameras but may buy something higher end in say the mid range price...I don't think you can convert anyone over from Canon...Sony maybe...I looked at a clip shot on the Canon 5D mk 3 the other day in 14bit ML about Rome...one shot had serious banding in the sky and another bad rolling shutter....I commented about this but not a peep in reply...if you're going for that Disney color or Zach Schneider look, I don't think you're ever going to be persuaded over to Panasonic color (I would never shoot in Canon either...completely subjective, so I understand their point of view too)...whatever camera one chooses, has to satisfy the individual needs of the filmmaker which has little to do with forum opinions...For me the GH5 is there already, as is also Panasonic in terms of native glass they are producing...I would like to see something more in the form factor of a robust Cine Cam with the GH 5 serving as a BCam in tight spots or stealth mode grabbing shots that no one could dream of 2 years ago, without getting mugged or asked for a permit...anyway....we'll know soon enough!

[Kisaha]

First of all it is funny that some people are certain of the specs, features and characteristics, when in reality the only thing we know is that there is an EF (or EF-S) lens on a picture. The Craft camera was more real than this one on those renderings a year ago!

Second, it is also funny how people are start fantasizing everything they need, and want, on a 6000$ (or whatever price has, but it would be 4500-7500$ for sure) camera, that render 95% of all the other cameras useless.

The good thing is that in one month we should know most things.

GH5 was a pleasant surprise ( I do not think that is a coincidence that A7 series cameras had a price deduction almost immediately after the GH5 release) and Pana can build from there and offer as a great tool for small to middling jobs, but that camera won't be shooting iMAX projects any time soon.

I am sure people on Canon and Sony are eating their nails right now!

[Fritz Pierre]

3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

First of all it is funny that some people are certain of the specs, features and characteristics, when in reality the only thing we know is that there is an EF (or EF-S) lens on a picture. The Craft camera was more real than this one on those renderings a year ago!

Second, it is also funny how people are start fantasizing everything they need, and want, on a 6000$ (or whatever price has, but it would be 4500-7500$ for sure) camera, that render 95% of all the other cameras useless.

The good thing is that in one month we should know most things.

GH5 was a pleasant surprise ( I do not think that is a coincidence that A7 series cameras had a price deduction almost immediately after the GH5 release) and Pana can build from there and offer as a great tool for small to middling jobs, but that camera won't be shooting iMAX projects any time soon.

I am sure people on Canon and Sony are eating their nails right now!

Spot on....I remember when people gave their wish list for what the GH5 had to have, for them to be interested, and then the camera released and blasted so far past even the most optimistic expectations, it was almost funny...whatever Panasonic does with this camera...it will not be cheap...it also will not make redundant either the GH5 or the Varicam 35 & LT....and I suspect it will be similar to the GH5 image wise, but on S35 sensor so even better low light performance and better DR...and to put the 12stops of the GH5 in Vlog in perspective...the RED one was originally rated at 11 stops but cinematographers did not rate the camera that high...more like  8 to 9 stops on early Reduser forums...if the mystery cam had 13 stops of DR...that would be huge...I'm sure Panasonic has the competition worried now, because whether you like their IQ or not is subjective...anybody who uses their cameras know the company is generous with the features, IQ and ergonomics they provide their clients for the cost.

[ntblowz]

On 5/6/2017 at 9:47 AM, AaronChicago said:

The Varicam sensor crushes the C100/FS7/FS5's. $6500 is a great price. They'd have to cripple something in order to not cannibalize the Varicam LT.

As frequent (daily) user of C100II and owner of FS5 and having played Varicam on set I can definitely agree on this!

[BrooklynDan]

The Sony FS5 is a lump of poo in my opinion. Thin, dull, dirty colors, nasty highlights, too much rolling shutter, and the build quality of a fortune cookie. The form factor and feature set are great, but the execution really suffers. The image out of my C100 is so much more pleasing and pretty, 4K or no 4K.

The C200 or whatever Canon offers up next will probably have 8-bit 4K, and only up to 30p. The mighty C300 MK II only does 4K 10-bit at up to 30 fps. Above that, you have to switch to 2K. If Panasonic's new camera offers the lush Varicam sensor with 10-bit 4K and high frame rate options at $6K, it will be the best option in its class. I'm not saying it'll sell the best, cuz brand loyalty or whatever. But it will certainly own in terms of image quality and value.

[mercer]

I get that everybody is stoked about this camera but once again, Panasonic has a huge gap in their camera pricing. There's already a gap between the G85 and GH5 and at $6500, there's a huge gap between the GH5 and this new camera. I know the GH5 is in a different category than the new camera, but with the hybrid nature of the GH5...

So, if the pricing is correct, how does Panasonic fill the gap between the GH5 and this new camera to lure GH5 users who are ready to upgrade to move to this new camera instead of going to a Sony A7Siii and then the cheaper FS5?