Bioskop.Inc Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 Well this is what everyone has been waiting for, absolutely amazing, but...they haven't even really begun filling the back orders for their first camera! So, how can they release 2 new ones? We can only hope that the delays were because they're making these at the same time - if not we have a long wait ahead of us & who knows where the market will be in a years time. The S16 is just perfect & priced bang on! This is Absolutely Fantastic news! Lets hope this really shakes up the market & someone else follows suit so we can have some choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurtinMinorKey Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 Over on Blackmagicforum, they are discussing the negative implications of the global shutter on DR. Also, the hypothetical sensor might only support 10bit. There also might be no version of uncompressed RAW on-board the new camera. Of course all of this is up in the air, but there might be some pretty big "catches" to this whole deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted April 8, 2013 Administrators Share Posted April 8, 2013 Global shutter on a CMOS does impact noise and dynamic range but all depends on the individual sensor how it will turn out. Seems strange to omit the number of stops of DR from the banner at NAB, if it was 13 stops I would have thought that would be worth shouting about like with the Pocket Cinema Camera. 10bit is fine. If they use a CCD sensor (which is highly unlikely) global shutter comes 'for free' and doesn't impact the image. Maybe they have a rolling shutter mode too - usually sensors with a global shutter can do that as well. I won't miss uncompressed raw too much, won't be much difference in image quality with compressed raw I don't think. It also does ProRes. 4K ProRes would be lovely looking too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dahlfors Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 One problem with the BMCC mini: how the hell do you record uncompressed RAW to SD cards? EDIT: Looking around, seems you'd want a bunch of these: http://www.bhphotovi...emory_Card.html You'd need at least a 125 MB/s write speed. 128GB gets you 15 minutes of footage, so still better than the film days. And of course, you can reuse the cards. Pro-Res is of course the saner option. The BMC Pocket Camera does compressed raw too, which is about 3:1 compression ratio. So, for 1080p 24 fps you should see data rates at around 27-30 MB/s. Would be great if it can do 1080p50/1080p60 as well, which would roughly be the double bitrate - but I don't have my hopes set too high on that. EDIT: This was an estimate according to the CinemaDNG specs for lossy compression. Seems like the cameras are using lossless compression (zip), which means that the data rates are totally different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmMan Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 Nothing wrong with a little compression in the work flow. Amazing what BMC is doing! Let's see. It cost me $13000 (for 1DC and extras). If I buy the BMC $4000. 1DC + BMC and then divide by 2. $8500 for 2 cameras. Now will Canon have a 10 bit firmware update for my ancient 1DC? Hey, I have an expensive "photography camera" now. Well done BMC. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chauffeurdevan Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 Right now, people should not be too excited about compressed CinemaDNG. I asked a few months ago about DNG 1.4 lossy compression bit depth, and what I got is the it is 8bit. In fact, Lossy DNG is a 8bit jpeg. http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1078247 dahlfors 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenkly Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 Are BMCCs regionally different? Or can I preorder one now and know that I am getting the same one as everybody? Just curious, otherwise I will wait for BH to get them in stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dahlfors Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 Interesting info on the compressed Cinema DNG being 8-bit. You made me look it up in the specs: DNG Version 1.4.0.0 adds support for the following compression codes: • Value = 8: Deflate (ZIP) • Value = 34892: Lossy JPEG Deflate (8) compression is allowed for floating point image data, 32-bit integer image data and transparency mask data. Lossy JPEG (34892) is allowed for IFDs that use PhotometricInterpretation = 34892 (LinearRaw) and 8-bit integer data. This new compression code is required to let the DNG reader know to use a lossy JPEG decoder rather than a lossless JPEG decoder for this combination of PhotometricInterpretation and BitsPerSample. So in Cinema DNG 1.4+ there is lossless compression with zip compression as well as lossy compression with JPEG, which is 8-bit. Specs: http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/dng_spec_1.4.0.0.pdf Some kind of comparison of standard DNG to Lossy DNG to JPEG: http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2012/10/dng-1-4-specification-notes.html It looks like the lossy DNG is supposed to have more data than a JPEG file at least, both sizewise and in the preview image. I don't get it from the spec how it is supposed to work though. Maybe someone else knows more about these formats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 10-bit is good for me. If it's 12-bit, then bonus. Cinema DNG compressed is still full data, just zipped up clips AFAIK so it's lossless. Should be no more lossy than zipping and unzipping a file. Dynamic range is a question, but if I'm choosing between no jello RAW S35 with post white-balance and insane colour adjustability and an extra stop in rolling mode with some H264 DSLR... well... Bear in mind that the DR of most SLRs in video mode is only as quoted when using flat "profiles" squeezed into a heavily compressed codec. Compared to RAW it's not really the same thing as Cinestyle of Flaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat or one of those other similar methods. If they could implement a choice between rolling and global, that'd be even better, though I doubt it what with hard and firmware requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chauffeurdevan Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 It looks like the lossy DNG is supposed to have more data than a JPEG file at least, both sizewise and in the preview image. I don't get it from the spec how it is supposed to work though. Maybe someone else knows more about these formats? It could really well, be that the JPEG example is kind of high-quality, and the lossy is highest quality. 10-bit is good for me. If it's 12-bit, then bonus. Cinema DNG compressed is still full data, just zipped up clips AFAIK so it's lossless. It is not 10-bit, but 8bit. From what I understand, the Jpeg inside the DNG is created from the raw data before all the transform operation (sharpen, white balance matrix, DR adjustement etc.) so you have a clean Jpeg that you can change the white balance, that still have the data in the highlights and shadows so you can do the same recovery as in the RAW. The only problem, like I said in the DNG forum, is exactly that, all the operation are done after the conversion to 8 bit. So if your shot needs a lot of color correction/grading (in fact just going to a really warm color temperature) you'll have a lot of banding/posterization, maybe more than a regular MJPEG video file - as on this one, the white balance matrix (and other operation) is done from the 12/14 bit data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrad Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 This is a CF card, not a SD :) Damn, you're right. So the question stands: how the hell do you record uncompressed RAW to SD? It's a bummer if an external recorder is required. The BMC Pocket Camera does compressed raw too, which is about 3:1 compression ratio. So, for 1080p 24 fps you should see data rates at around 27-30 MB/s. Would be great if it can do 1080p50/1080p60 as well, which would roughly be the double bitrate - but I don't have my hopes set too high on that. You sure about that? I know it does ProRes, but they don't advertised compressed RAW anywhere for the pocket cam. EDIT: Never mind, just read it on the official page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dahlfors Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 It says lossless compressed CinemaDNG on Black Magic's own product pages - so higher than 8-bit \o/ I can load the pages for the cameras now without images, and without tech specs (site seems to be overloaded :)): http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicproductioncamera4k http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dahlfors Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 Damn, you're right. So the question stands: how the hell do you record uncompressed RAW to SD? It's a bummer if an external recorder is required. You sure about that? I know it does ProRes, but they don't advertised compressed RAW anywhere for the pocket cam. EDIT: Never mind, just read it on the official page. Forget my data rate estimation - I did my calculation according to lossy compression for CinemaDNG. The new BMC cameras use lossless CinemaDNG compressions, so data rates will be different! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrad Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 Wondering if the Pocket Cam shoots uncompressed to an external recorder. But if the lossless compression is good enough, it shouldn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chauffeurdevan Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 It says lossless compressed CinemaDNG on Black Magic's own product pages - so higher than 8-bit \o/ I can load the pages for the cameras now without images, and without tech specs (site seems to be overloaded :)): http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicproductioncamera4k http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera Lossless on the Pocket, visually lossless on the 4k. So damn, the 4k CinemaDNG is only 8bit lossy jpeg compression - no RAW. Hopefully, the ProRes 422 HQ is 10 bit as I would not want to pay for a high-end 4k SDI external recorder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dahlfors Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 More info about the new cameras from John Brawley: http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/the-pocket-rocket-blackmagic-downsizes-the-bmcc-and-does-a-4k-upsize-of-the-orginal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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