Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

[nahua]

I'v bonded with my GH3.. But this little cam looks amazing, on the fence about pre-ordering one. I will probably pre-order as soon as it becomes available and hang onto my GH3 until it arrives, once it does I can see how they compare. It really does seem pretty amazing though. 

@ /p/ - I know what you mean.  I love my GH3 too.  But you might as well pre-order now, because by the time it comes out in 2014 you'll have made some money.  LOL  All kidding aside, this is what I want too.  I pre-ordered, but I expect at least a christmas delivery date.  This will finally replace my aging hacked GH2s.

[andrgl]

I think I'm going to buy a BMCC soon. While I adore the idea of the Pocket, giving up lossless RAW and the flexibility of using 2.5" SSDs for a 1080 sensor (would save so much time and money editing, could probably get by on a two SSD RAID array vs the beast you need to edit 2.5K,) isn't worth it.

Or am I crazy? Anyone willing to give me their opinion? What type of image quality am I sacrificing? Does ProRess and Lossy DNG grade well enough to fix any white balance issues? I don't care so much about achieve a style in post, all I want is to be able to salvage even the worst shot footage and achieve proper colour.

[Zach]

I'm really stoked to stick a 100mm macro on this thing. With the crop factor, DOF will be a little more manageable and it will of course be closer! 

[dahlfors]

Hands on vid. Not much information and blackmagic seems to be contradicting themselves as they state in this video the pocket camera is proress only.

 

 

I am confused. He is saying it doesn't record RAW. But the website says RAW

 

Yes. It is confusing. John Brawley says on his blog:

 

"Currently the prototype camera I have records only in ProRes 422 @ 10 bit, just like the BMCC. The plan is to add a NEW compressed RAW implementation of DNG. The spec allows for this be lossless (not lossy) and at 1.5:1 – 1.2-:1."

 

Source url: http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/the-pocket-rocket-blackmagic-downsizes-the-bmcc-and-does-a-4k-upsize-of-the-orginal

 

So, I think the likely scenario is that current models and the ones shown at NAB can only do ProRes. If BM can make it in time, they will probably add compressed DNG RAW to the BMPCC until launch, otherwise it will come later on in a firmware upgrade - unless they stumble upon some issues. Personally, I consider this as a ProRes camera until further information about compressed DNG RAW on the Pocket Camera comes from BM or any third party that has tested DNG RAW on a prototype.

 

Considering the product page for the Pocket Cinema Camera though, I'd be shocked if they put up texts claiming RAW support unless they've had successful RAW recording to SD cards during internal testing already...

[Chrad]

Does ProRess and Lossy DNG grade well enough to fix any white balance issues? I don't care so much about achieve a style in post, all I want is to be able to salvage even the worst shot footage and achieve proper colour.

We won't know for sure until it's released, but I would think grading 1.2-1.5x compressed raw would be virtually identical to uncompressed raw for our purposes.

[dahlfors]

Update on the contradicting interview from NAB:

 

Black Magic representant tells that the pocket camera will have compressed DNG, so now it's confirmed both from homepage and NAB representants:

 

https://vimeo.com/63690222

 

(also confirmed that the 4k camera reads out the full s35 sensor for 1080p, not just a crop mode)

[Ernesto Mantaras]

Here's a thought I haven't read anyone talk about yet: because of the size of the sensor, wouldn't we be able to use EF-S lenses via Speed Booster? Unlike the case of Super35 sensors, where you need a full frame lens.
 

I'm saying this because, say, the Tamron 17-50mm f2.8 is roughly a 50-150mm lens on the Pocket, but if you fit a Speed Booster in the middle then you get a 35-105mm f2, and that's with IS (if it's implemented through the electronic interface of the mount, I hope!)

[Caleb Genheimer]

Here's a thought I haven't read anyone talk about yet: because of the size of the sensor, wouldn't we be able to use EF-S lenses via Speed Booster? Unlike the case of Super35 sensors, where you need a full frame lens.
 

I'm saying this because, say, the Tamron 17-50mm f2.8 is roughly a 50-150mm lens on the Pocket, but if you fit a Speed Booster in the middle then you get a 35-105mm f2, and that's with IS (if it's implemented through the electronic interface of the mount, I hope!)

 

Ammendment: sorry, thought this was the topic for the Production cinema camera, not the Pocket camera. Yes, Assuming a M4/3 speedbooster is released, I think it should work.

[dahlfors]

Yes, Nikon DX / Canon EF-S lenses should be doable with a speedbooster.

 

The APS-C sensors are 3:2 ratio though, which is narrower than a 16:9 cinema sensor. That makes the corners go a bit further out to the sides - so you can get a slight bit more of vignetting on some lenses with a DX/EF lens through speedbooster. Will vary from lens to lens. Nikon DX sensors are slightly larger than the Canon EF-S sensors, so there's a chance you might get a little bit more vignetting with the EF-S lenses.

 

I thought the upcoming m4/3 speed booster would scale the FF image down to cover the m4/3 sensor - however I find no such specs when searching, only the announcement: "... lens adapter for for mounting SLR lenses on APS-C and Micro Four Thirds mirrorless cameras that reduces the focal length by a factor of 0.71x and increases the maximum aperture by 1 stop."

 

This forum sure is great for picking up new info :)

[Julian]

On the Pocket Camera you won't get any vignetting with DX/EF lenses. With the Speed Booster the crop factor will be 2.1x, still more than aps-c 1.5/1.6x. On the S35 camera you won't be able to use a Speed Booster at all, because it has a EF mount.

[Julian]

Newsshooter and Blackmagic cleared up the earlier confusing info about raw on the Pocket Cam:

http://www.newsshooter.com/2013/04/09/nab2013-blackmagic-clear-up-codec-confusion-on-pocket-cinema-camera/

 

raw is (supposed to be) in the camera when it's shipping

 

http://vimeo.com/63675961

 

Blackmagic clear up the questions that have come from yesterday’s release of their Pocket Cinema Camera. The protoype cameras being demoed at the show are locked to ProRes with no sign of the claimed Cinema DNG. However, the camera on release is due to feature both ProRes and Cinema DNG options. Cinema DNG in the Pocket Cinema Camera is described as ‘lightly compressed’ to a level of 1.5:1, so from a 128GB card Blackmagic predict 30min of raw, compared to 70-80mins of ProRes.

 

1.5:1 is not a lot of compression. I would love to see more. Well, luckily the price of the Pocket leaves some budget to buy more hdd's...

[ronjbase]

What is the crop factor for micro FourThird lenses, does anybody know?

 

[Julian]

The crop factor of the Pocket is 3x, no matter wat lens. M43 lenses are made for 2x crop, a typical kit lens is 14-45 (28-90) and will be 42-135mm on the Pocket for example.

[Bioskop.Inc]

Well the Pocket will be slightly larger than S16, so you should consider x3 for this little thing.

 

The problem will be how wide you can actually go - so until John Brawley posts some footage & tells us, we'll just have to wait.

 

Just really hoping the Speed Booster comes out at the same time - it'll be a life & cash saver!

Especially considering the amount of lenses that will be bought up & the over inflated prices that will ensue!

[Caleb Genheimer]

I thought the upcoming m4/3 speed booster would scale the FF image down to cover the m4/3 sensor - however I find no such specs when searching, only the announcement: "... lens adapter for for mounting SLR lenses on APS-C and Micro Four Thirds mirrorless cameras that reduces the focal length by a factor of 0.71x and increases the maximum aperture by 1 stop."

 

This forum sure is great for picking up new info :)

 

All the speedboosters will use the same 0.71X optics, only the mounts change. 0.71X is perfect for adapting fullframe lenses to APSC. So while m4/3 cameras with speedbooster will see a similar benefit, they will not be full frame-equivalent like APSC, because m4/3 is an even smaller sensor than APSC. 

[Rungunshoot]

I've pre-ordered one.  Hoping that Metabones comes through with a m43 SB by the time the camera ships.  Since crop factor would be practically the same as GH3, I see the speedboosted version of this cam as a GH3 replacement in most scenarios.  I suppose it's still (probably) missing weather sealing, and it doesn't have an articulated viewfinder or higher frame rates.  But it seems to be ideal for normal 24p shooting.

 

Then I'm thinking I'll wait on the BM Production cam until the KineRAW Mini is released and see which is more bang for the buck.  The Mini + NEX adapter + Speedbooster = full-frame RAW at 2k.

 

I don't necessarily want or need to shoot 4k quite yet.  I'm more stoked about RAW and ProRes.

[Andrew Reid]

The crop factor of the Pocket is 3x, no matter wat lens. M43 lenses are made for 2x crop, a typical kit lens is 14-45 (28-90) and will be 42-135mm on the Pocket for example.

 

So use Super 16mm glass then. Tons of it out there. Not hard to find a 8 or 10mm fast wide angle.

 

Speed Booster will make the Pocket Cinema Camera more like standard 2x Micro Four Thirds.

[Julian]

Yeah I already have some c-mount glass that I can use on it. Tested my Cosmicar 8.5mm f/1.5 for coverage, it will vignette a little bit in the extreme corners, could be used as a fun lens though. My Computar 12.5mm 1.8, Computar 25mm 1.8, Tokina 16mm 1.6 and Fuji 35mm 1.7 will be fine.

[Andrew Reid]

Some C-mount stuff is designed for small digital CCTV sensors, TV cameras, etc. I'd avoid those. Super 16mm is larger

[P337]

Newsshooter and Blackmagic cleared up the earlier confusing info about raw on the Pocket Cam:
http://www.newsshooter.com/2013/04/09/nab2013-blackmagic-clear-up-codec-confusion-on-pocket-cinema-camera/

raw is (supposed to be) in the camera when it's shipping

1.5:1 is not a lot of compression. I would love to see more. Well, luckily the price of the Pocket leaves some budget to buy more hdd's...

I think his goal of 1.5:1 compression ratios for the Pocket are very ambitious and unlikely. ^{Update: They can do it if they are not applying a de-bayer on the image in camera.}
Someone help me figure this out and correct my math if it's wrong

Frame size: 1920x1080 resolution = 2,073,600 pixels

12 bit Y' Channel: 1920x1080 resolution = 2,073,600 pixels * 12bits per pixel = 24,883,200 bits per frame
12 bit Cb Channel: 1920x1080 resolution = 2,073,600 pixels * 12bits per pixel = 24,883,200 bits per frame
12 bit Cr Channel: 1920x1080 resolution = 2,073,600 pixels * 12bits per pixel = 24,883,200 bits per frame
Total "YUV" Channels: 74,649,600 bits per frame

^{Updated: I think this part was incorrect, if the camera does not preform any de-bayering the RAW image would be 3x smaller:}

12 bit RAW Image: 1920x1080 resolution = 2,073,600 pixels * 12bits per pixel = 24,883,200 bits per frame

Frame rate: 23.976 frames per second * 24,883,200 bits per frame = 596,599,603.2 bits per second

1.5:1 compression: 596,599,603.2 bits per second / 1.5 = 397,733,068.8 bits per second OR 49,716,633.6 Bytes per second

128GB SD Card: 119,210 MegaBytes^{(formatted value)} available on card / 50 MegaBytes per second^{(rounded up value)} = 2,384 seconds per card OR 39 minutes per card

As far as I know, the fastest SD cards on the market today only write at 90MB/s so a 1.5:1 [is] "about 30 minutes of footage per 128GBs".  So RAW recording (at the lowest frame rate setting) only works half way decent [well] on today's largest and highest rated "sustained write" card (the Sandisk Extreme Pro 64GB). So if they include RAW or not doesn't really matter to me since it seems so impractical to work with in this device at the moment but I am very looking forward to 10bit 4:2:2 ProResHQ :D