Making sense of the new Blackmagic Production Camera and Pocket Cinema Camera

[Shawn_Lights]

BTW those compressed DNG from small camera is only 8 bit, so you stuck with low bit debth RAW or high bit depth RGB.

 

 

You're confusing lossless compression and lossy. 

[shijan]

ouch, my fault. so its lossless, same as big brothers are. 

another issue that i see its a ergonomics: when you hold the camera grip it seems you always be able to accidentally push buttons.

[/p/]

I was 10 seconds away from pre-ordering the pocket cam (available for pre-order at B&H) but have decided not to drop the money onto it.

 

I think both of them are amazing, but specifically talking about just the pocket cam for my needs at the moment I don't think I'll buy one (yet anyway) they lack 60fps and while that takes nothing away from what they can do I like to shoot at 60fps lol and mixing cameras (GH3 + Pocket cam) isn't something I want to do right now so I'll just stick with my GH3 (which is still excellent, I love it) and hold off on the pocket cam for now. I may look into it again and will definitely be looking at the other versions in the future.

 

Pocket cam with EVF next year? Calling it now lolol.

[zephyrnoid]

So to reiterate +1.... :)
"I’d have preferred to have seen a black box with a lower centre of gravity and equal weight distribution. The Blackmagic Production Camera remains narrow, unlike the cube-like Epic, Scarlet and KineRaw Mini. All the ports are on the left of the camera – not good for shoulder mounted shooting. Finally I’d have preferred to have an Epic like articulated LCD panel which is powered by the camera and some physical controls for aperture, shutter, etc. on the camera body instead of a giant screen. The rear of the camera still more resembles a media player than a camera. It was an opportunity to break with the quirky 1.0 camera but Blackmagic chose to maintain compatibility with existing Cinema Camera rigs and accessories. A mistake in my view."

 

And thank you Andrew for this. You are a stand up guy fo sure !

"One final thought. These cameras MUST be delivered. Blackmagic’s reputation cannot afford another BMCC 2012 situation. If they tell their dealers and customers July, it must ship in July and ship in large quantities."
 

Now for heaven's sake can someone please give it to us as Andrew has outlined here? What is so damned hard about it??

[JR Lipartito]

specifically talking about just the pocket cam for my needs at the moment I don't think I'll buy one (yet anyway) they lack 60fps and while that takes nothing away from what they can do I like to shoot at 60fps lol and mixing cameras (GH3 + Pocket cam) isn't something I want to do right now so I'll just stick with my GH3 (which is still excellent, I love it) and hold off on the pocket cam for now. I may look into it again and will definitely be looking at the other versions in the future.

My thoughts exactly. The pocket Cam will most definitely better the GH3 in image quality, but the GH3 has the all around more versatile feature set which I can't do without.

Guess I'll have to work hard and save up to own all three! :)

[jcs]

In addition to the F55, the F65 also has a global shutter.

Regarding 4K for the Production camera: how many photosites? Only the F65 comes close to actual 4K resolution. All the other 4K cameras are really 3.xK.

To get the film look it's very important to have high resolution without any aliasing or digital artifacts.

 

Personally I'd rather have a camera that used high-bitrate H.264/H.265 + 422/444 10-12bit vs. fat+inefficient ProRes HQ (effectively ancient MJPEG)). These are cool cameras for sure, but they won't be replacing reliable pro gear such as the F5/F55 (could see some RED sales going this way though). Feels like a niche product and not really an upgrade for DSLRs given the SSD workflow, form factor, and massive files generated (including ProRes HQ vs. any long GOP codec: XAVC or similar would be a welcome addition).

[Axel]

I was 10 seconds away from pre-ordering the pocket cam (available for pre-order at B&H) but have decided not to drop the money onto it.
 
I think both of them are amazing, but specifically talking about just the pocket cam for my needs at the moment I don't think I'll buy one (yet anyway) they lack 60fps and while that takes nothing away from what they can do I like to shoot at 60fps lol and mixing cameras (GH3 + Pocket cam) isn't something I want to do right now so I'll just stick with my GH3 (which is still excellent, I love it) and hold off on the pocket cam for now. I may look into it again and will definitely be looking at the other versions in the future.

What I think as well.
Bit depth is not so much about gradability, it really is about image quality. A quality though that with 8-bit only gets, er, visibly lost on 10-bit (new displays) or 12-bit (DC) playback.
Certainly 2k is a limit. Everything bigger than that needs to be at least 10-bit. Unless 4k and 10-bit become standard fast, the GH3 really has more advantages than shortcomings.

[P337]

the only thing I can say right now is WOW.... WOW.... WOW....

I dont often get this excited by new equipment, but in this case I think the excitement is well warranted. 

 

LOL, but seriously I've been trying to decide what "B camera" I wanted next.  I had it narrowed down to a GH3, VG30 or 6D but I think the BMP(pocket) just took the cake!  I have never decided on a purchase without very careful study but found myself hovering over that pre-order button even before finishing the article.  I've been trying very hard to sustain but I keep finding myself back viewing my cart lol.  We all know this is a very useful product and it's under a grand for heven sakes and is offering "RAW in the palm of your hand"(kinda) so what are the reasons not to have this?

 

1. Super 16mm size sensors are small, I could get by with a 4/3 and 2x crop but 2.98x 3x is really pushing it as my widest lens at 24mm would now be like a 70mm.  I would have to buy a new lens or 2 for this to be actually useful which will likely only work well on this camera and for good ones would add quite a bit more money to the package making it actually more expensive for me then the other choices. 

 

2. No 1080p 60, I think this is a missed opportunity for the camera as it would have been very useful to get decent quality 1080p60 for once and with the smaller sensor I'd think it would have been easier (maybe even 120fps).  This would have also made up for the 3x crop factor for me.

 

3. No way to get actual RAW output, ProRes HQ 10bit at 220Mbps(27.5MB/s) is fine but not quite RAW and HDMI is limited to 1080i60 8bit right?  I don't care so much if the CinemaDNG RAW coming to the camera will be 12bit color depth but I haven't heard anything yet and I don't know how they'll squeeze the planned 1.5:1 of 12bit 1080p30 1.5Gbps(187MB/s) into a 95MB/s SD card but maybe my math is wrong. 

 

4. No built in microphone, if I had to film something stealthy or just don't want to build up bulk I'd rather have a Sony NEX.

 

5. Will it overheat?  It looks just like an NEX 5 to me, and those overheat, too often...

 

6. How is it in lowlight?  Not sure its native ISO rating or how its signal to noise ratios compare but I hope it's similar to the GH3.

 

7. How will I have to wait?  Though I think the worst is behind them they're notorious for making people wait, and then wait some more to get their pre-orders.

 

Looking over my list I no longer think this would make a good "B cam" choice for me, so I'm holding off on the pre-order.  I still think it's useful though and would make a great "crash cam"/RUN & gun which I was considering the NEX F3 or Hero3 for, it is quite a bit more expensive than those but I think the quality gain would be worth it.

[Leang]

most of you guys saying 4K is/was a failure blah blah, but when you see a price everyone changes their mind!

[Simon Shasha]

Can someone please confirm the crop-factor of the BMPC S16? Is it 2.88x?

[Julian]

Can someone please confirm the crop-factor of the BMPC S16? Is it 2.88x?

 

BMPC Effective sensor size: 12.48mm x 7.02mm

 

Crop factor is 3x compared to full-frame (36mm x 24mm), 2,88x compared to 16:9 fullframe (36mm x 24mm).

[Simon Shasha]

BMPC Effective sensor size: 12.48mm x 7.02mm

 

Crop factor is 3x compared to full-frame (36mm x 24mm), 2,88x compared to 16:9 fullframe (36mm x 24mm).

 

Thanks. So does that mean my SLR Magic 12mm T1.6 HyperPrime takes on, roughly, a 35mm FoV after crop (12 x 2.88 = 34.56)?

[P337]

BMPC Effective sensor size: 12.48mm x 7.02mm

 

Crop factor is 3x compared to full-frame (36mm x 24mm), 2,88x compared to 16:9 fullframe (36mm x 24mm).

I wish manufacturers would just start listing the sensor's diagonal measurements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_lens) as it would make figuring out "crop factors" a lot easier.

[Rungunshoot]

Am I dreaming if I'm thinking about using C-mount lenses on the pocket BMCC?  Something like the 8-48mm f/1.0 would be a dream if it delivered quality optics without vignetting:

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=341297&is=REG&Q=&A=details

 

I'm too lazy to do the math. Anyone know if this lens would work?

[Julian]

I'm too lazy to do the math.

 

Tssk.

 

No it won't work properly. It's for 1/2" sensor size, which is 6,40 x 4,80mm. Like half the BMPCC.

[ScreensPro]

I wouldn't give them such a hard time about not changing the body.

 

There is every chance they made ALOT of bodies, ready for the BMCC.... But due to the sensor problem, and subsequent cancellations, they have a warehouse full of these "shells" that can now be put into use as the 4K cam.

 

The 4K cam might cost twice as much, with a different design.

[jgharding]

most of you guys saying 4K is/was a failure blah blah, but when you see a price everyone changes their mind and theorize that all the problems within the high res video recording sector have been solved!

 

If you mean the other thread, that was about 4K for consumers, not capture. For capture it's pretty useful, but it's always been very expensive.

 

For consumers/delivery it's kinda pointless now, unless retina displays on everything become the norm, and even then it's overkill.

 

Of course I remember saying the same about HD 5 years ago...

[Bruno]

I haven't compared both, but isn't the case of the Production camera exactly the same as the Cinema Camera? This might explain why they kept the form factor, to keep costs down and maybe to be able to use the thousands of camera cases they must have waiting for sensors.

I had many critiques for their first camera, especially because they didn't listen to the community and "released" an inferior product despite everyone complaining about the same issues, but seriously, with the new one I have no problem at all. 4k and global shutter are huge selling points IMO.

I don't think it makes any sense to keep selling the Cinema Camera though, they should just focus on delivering these ones now. The Cinema Camera was too much trouble for them, and just lost most if not all of its appeal. If they keep it in their lineup, a proper firmware upgrade with all the missing features and compressed raw is an absolute must have.

And of course, this time they HAVE to deliver.

[Leang]

If you mean the other thread, that was about 4K for consumers, not capture. 

 

it's all obviously related.  As I've stated before and remembering HDTV sales and Plasmas, it took about a year for massive exaggerated price drops that you felt bad for the first buyers investing in the sets.  A year from now 4K sets will start to be at Best Buy's in popularity for NFL or NBA frenzy, easily.

[Tzedekh]

I think Lossy DNG and Lossless DNG are too different things.

 

John Brawley and the official Blackmagic website say 12bit lossless DNG. It is still compressed but it is lossless like raw not lossy like JPEG.

 

Here's John's tweet just now - https://twitter.com/brawlster/status/321411372296577026

 

Just to be clear: raw can be lossy or lossless. And "lossless" compression can mean visually lossless or, more precisely, mathematically lossless. Compressed CinemaDNG is the latter, but Adobe has said that future versions of the spec might also include lossy compression. If GoPro doesn't jump in and strike a mutually agreeable deal for CineForm RAW before the cameras are released, they will look foolish.