Making sense of the new Blackmagic Production Camera and Pocket Cinema Camera

[TJB]

Ok, so it is possible- ProRes 422 recording in a pocket camera.

No waiting for at least a m43 sensor size.

[jgharding]

it's all obviously related.  As I've stated before and remembering HDTV sales and Plasmas, it took about a year for massive exaggerated price drops that you felt bad for the first buyers investing in the sets.  A year from now 4K sets will start to be at Best Buy's in popularity for NFL or NBA frenzy, easily.

 

As well as that, it'll just be built into everything and unavoidable! I had a client yesterday asking if they should make a video for ipad 3 to the exact screen resolution! I told him to go for 1080p, but it's that kind of thing that will eventually force delivery resolution upward.

[Tim]

So the BM Production 4K camera is EF mount, not M43 (makes sense), but have they fixed the flange distance issues?

[silvertonesx24]

Great writeup, Andrew. I thought your posts on the original BMCC were much too defensive and I greatly prefer this pragamatic, disinterested view.

 

I guess that's because personally I am trying not to get too hyped up over cameras any longer. If there's anything I've learned over the past few years, it's that people who buy the latest generation are getting burned faster and faster. Even as a professional paid very well for my work I can't see spending more than $2k at best on new camera technology. Just look at a $500 hacked GH2 + $400 speed booster (if that ever comes out) and drop the rest on glass and accessories as you see fit. Maybe I'll get a Production Camera next year, or the year after, and meanwhile I continue to invest in glass.

 

Also, why is everyone so keen to get some C mount glass on the Pocket Cam? All of the C mount stuff I tried years ago on my GH1 was optically garbage and every piece I had was eventually sold off.

[Bruno]

it's all obviously related.

It's different things, even if 4k TVs hadn't been invented yet, there's clear advantages to shooting in 4k resolution.

[Bruno]

"The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K is housed in the same chassis as our current Blackmagic Cinema Camera so all the third party accessories that have been developed will fit perfectly. It features an EF compatible lens mount as the sensor in this camera is way too large physically, to fit in a MFT lens mount."

 

This confirms my previous observation, having the same case keeps costs down and won't present such a big problem when most people cancel their original BMCC orders. They should have a good upgrade path in place btw.

[ScreensPro]

Considering most people will be upgrading from DSLRs, i don't see the form factor being a problem. We have been jumping through hoops for a few years now.

 

 

As someone whos first glimpse into the s35 world was a HVX200 and RedRock frankenrig, i can live with having a few ins/outs on the "wrong" side.

 

Could it be better, sure.... Would i prefer to pay an extra $3k for a new chassis, maybe not.

[riccardocovino]

I'm still wondering why they do not consider an E-mount.

It would be way better, allowing rangefinder lenses, all DSLR lenses, plus active Canon lenses in both 1.5 and full frame proportions thanks to Metabones Smart or Speedbooster adapters.

[HurtinMinorKey]

There's no need for Blackmagic to describe it as 'visually lossless'. The proper term is "Lossless Compression".

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

If you record a format, then compress it, and it looks the exact same after playback, then it is "visually loss-less".

 

If you record a format, then compress it, and you lose no information whatsoever (including detail that can't be seen upon native playback) then you have a true loss-less format. 

 

It sounds like the compressed Raw is going to throw away some information.

[Bruno]

It sounds like the compressed Raw is going to throw away some information.

 

Yes, most likely information your eyes wouldn't see anyway.

Remember that RED is also lossy compressed raw, that's not a bad thing at all, it's much better than having to deal with uncompressed formats, especially at 4k!

[HurtinMinorKey]

Yes, most likely information your eyes wouldn't see anyway.

Remember that RED is also lossy compressed raw, that's not a bad thing at all, it's much better than having to deal with uncompressed formats, especially at 4k!

 

But i fear my eyes will see it, when i try to bring out shadow detail that has been thrown away!

 

There is a reason why .CR2 files (which use actual loss less compression) are so big for stills images...

[Bruno]

When you get 25 of those files per second it becomes more of a curse than a blessing :)

 

As I said before, RED users don't seem to be complaining about it, they have different amounts of compression to choose from though.

The same way I'm more than happy to lose 1 stop in order to have global shutter, I'm more than willing to lose some subtle information in order to get manageable file sizes. Video compression has come a long way, and we're not talking about 8 bit H264 compression here.

 

Most people already complained about the raw file sizes of the BMCC, including dropped frames in most drives, having to deal with the same uncompressed raw format at 4k would be insane.

 

Some of the issues are described here:

http://nofilmschool.com/2013/04/12-things-think-about-blackmagic-cinema-camera/

[HurtinMinorKey]

When you get 25 of those files per second it becomes more of a curse than a blessing :)

 

As I said before, RED users don't seem to be complaining about it, they have different amounts of compression to choose from though.

The same way I'm more than happy to lose 1 stop in order to have global shutter, I'm more than willing to lose some subtle information in order to get manageable file sizes. Video compression has come a long way, and we're not talking about 8 bit H264 compression here.

 

Most people already complained about the raw file sizes of the BMCC, including dropped frames in most drives, having to deal with the same uncompressed raw format at 4k would be insane.

 

Some of the issues are described here:

http://nofilmschool.com/2013/04/12-things-think-about-blackmagic-cinema-camera/

 

 

So you need a beast machine to tap the true potential of the camera, what's wrong with that? I want to retain the option, that's all.  So I think I'm going to stick with the BMCC.

[marcuswolschon]

I stopped waiting for the GH3 to get hacked and thus finally support >29min59s of PAL(25fps) video recording and preordered the Pocket Cinema Camera.

Sure, in comparison I may loose high ISO capabilities, the ability to make photos, the articulated screen, wireless control of my (updated) Metz flashes. But I'll gain 13 stops of dynamic range, LANC, the outlook to future raw support, uncrypted, cheap batteries and battery charging while connected to 12V, loose weight instead of gaining bulk and weight.

 

With the 14-42X or 14mm pancake this will fit my pocket even better then the GH1s and GH2s did (and still do. B and C camera will stay GH2 and I'll sell the GH1). What do they say? The best camera is the one you actually have in your hand.

 

So it was an easy decision. The 30 minute video recording limit in Europe killed the GH3 for me.

I'm looking forward to the dynamic range.

It's the reason I had been eying fullframe cameras (and found them all catastrophically flawed for video).

In the real world pale white people are wearing black T-shirts...en masse and dance events have extreme dynamics.

I hope to compensate any low light issues with light, my fast mFT lenses or by falling back to the GH2.

[Chrad]

Vitality finally got his GH3 the other day.

If he at least adds worldcam support and removes the recording limit, which should be easy enough, I'll be happy with the GH3.

Looking like it will be a Pocket Cam/GH3/RX100 kit for me. Pretty happy with that.

[Leang]

It's different things, even if 4k TVs hadn't been invented yet, there's clear advantages to shooting in 4k resolution.

but we're not all hypothesizing here unless we choose to not acknowledge the playback/broadcast devices for future 1st world protocol. We're talking about relevant circumstances. i was in favor for 4k tv because eventually we'll be heading for that native eased Codec workflow anyway. im just saying its all important and relevant, all aside from 4K 2k cinema or NLE cropping/zooming

[Bruno]

So you need a beast machine to tap the true potential of the camera, what's wrong with that? I want to retain the option, that's all.  So I think I'm going to stick with the BMCC.

 

IMO compressed codec is an advantage, not a disadvantage. So is global shutter. And 4k.

 

The BMCC is known to drop frames during uncompressed raw shooting at 2.5k, so imagine shooting uncompressed 4k, it might not even be possible with current media read/write speeds, not at this price range and size.

 

Shooting raw doesn't mean you don't have to still try to get the best exposure, lighting etc, and if you're roughly in the ball park, compressed raw will give you more than enough to work with in post.

 

Actually, I'd like to see a comparison between both, hopefully they bring compressed raw to the BMCC as well and we'll be able to compare.

[jgharding]

Believe it or not, the lack of compressed RAW on the original BMD was one of the things that stopped me ordering it! The files are monstrous.

 

Granted, these will still be huge files at 4K, but if we can switch to 1080p mode this solves all the issues I had with first camera: sensor size (rethinking all my lenses would be a chore) and RAW compression. I take 4K to be a bonus!

[Grasshopper]

No one has mentioned yet that the Production Camera only comes with Resolve Lite, not the full version. So to fairly compare, at least cost, between Production and it's little brother, we should say that BMPC costs $4990 and BMCC costs $2995

[HurtinMinorKey]

By the time 4K actually becomes a mainstream delivery format it could be 5+ years from now. Even "HD" brodcast in the States is often 1080i or 720p.  I think everyone is jumping the gun on the 4K for future proofing.

 

Using 4K to re-frame, track, zoom, that makes sense. But it's more of a luxury, less a necessity at this point.