GH5 vs Ursa Mini 4.6K

[webrunner5]

58 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

I beg to disagree. You are one of the youngster minds over here and I've ever met everywhere! ;-)

I follow your concern on the digital look, though. Not my beach either. But, we're discussing capture tools, not the master to render for final output :-) 

Well I guess there is a time to just embrace that this is 2017, not 1950. The Digital look is here to stay like it or not. 4k is in, 720 is out. I think as a hobbyist I would love to keep the film look alive. But like I said, if I am trying to make a buck, put food on the table, I don't think a lot of cameras we associate with the Filmic look is going to cut it when you have to take any job that comes up.

It has to be a later Sony, later Panasonic, later Canon C series, and yes even a GH4, and it seems the GH5 Has to be in the mix as they say. There is no going back. For fun a BMPCC, 5D mkIII, for money making a Sony A7 mkII, Panny GH5. Bigger money stuff, Canon C series, Sony FS5 middle ground price. Canon C100, C300 probably the best overall for a balance between Film look, Digital look I think hands down. The Sony's, well the low light of them damn hard to turn down, but the worse looking Digital look to me. I think Panny is in the middle. And overall price wise, I think, very hard to beat.

For kind of serious modeling stuff, indie, short films the BM Ursa cameras Have to be in there. Price wise it has to be considered. Sony FS5 also. I like the Usra maybe better overall. But not as mature as the Sony Products. So that tips it in Sony's favor a bit. But showing up with a Sony will get you more jobs than the BM sad to say.

Now I am talking about making a living here, not for a hobby, fun. Hobby, well BM products, the lower end ones, 5D mkIII way up there now with ML.

Just my rambling thoughts about the industry as a whole if I had to do it all over again. Food for thought, and debate as they say.

A add on here. I think Panasonic, what ever this New camera they are talking about NEEDS this damn camera. It has to be under 6k, maybe even less. They have a Big ass gap in their products. It has to be filled for anyone to take them serious. To be able to move up from a GH5. People are not going from a GH5 to a Varicam LT. Get a grip!! They are sucking hind tit for not having a AF100 product like in the past in their lineup. The CEO of Panasonic needs his ass kicked for ever letting this happen. I mean it! Stupid, just plain damn stupid. Sony has handed their Ass to them because of it with the FS5, Canon with the C100, BM with the Ursa 4.6. Hell even the JVC LS300.

And no the Panasonic AG-DVX200 does not count. It has been a total flop for them. Lots of early problems with it. It ruined its potential even if they get all the bugs worked out. They threw it out the door too quick! It would be hard for me to buy one, even used. It is more of a ENG style camera anyways.

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

I beg to disagree. You are one of the youngster minds over here and I've ever met everywhere! ;-) BTW, only the car models have changed a bit along their design. You can't park there too. Some restrictions on pollution standards for the introduction of new technologies eco-friendly from EU regulations. Other than that, everything stays the same : )

I follow your concern on the clean-digital-look, though. Not my beach either. But, we're discussing capture tools, not the master to render for final output :-) 

Oh I am sure that is has not changed other than the cars and a few rules. That is what I love about Europe, it had Not changed! You are luckier that you think.

You have to love stability over rampart progress any day. That is Americas downfall I think. No love for the past. Just go, go, go. Not a goal that can last very long.

And not a very fun way to spend your life, always in the rat race compared to a laid back lifestyle of of my favorite city of Naples LoL. I know, you like Rome better.

[Emanuel]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Well this damn video shows how old I am for the first time I was in Lisbon! It says Rare Color Footage! Jesus Christ!!! Shit I feel old Lol. And yes I have been there, hell maybe I am in the video shot! I was probably that drunk guy in the Maze at the end!

What do you think, Super 8mm?? Might be 16mm?

 

LOL Beyond Super 8 for sure, but can't be Super 16 mm, you're older than that! :-P

You should also know I am a film lover : ) Just can't ignore Panasonic has pushed the envelope of this industry more than any other contender. And that digital technology is not the opposite of film, only its part II :-)

[webrunner5]

35 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

LOL Beyond Super 8 for sure, but can't be Super 16 mm, you're older than that! :-P

You should also know I am a film lover : ) Just can't ignore Panasonic has pushed the envelope of this industry more than any other contender. And that digital technology is not the opposite of film, only its part II :-)

Well I think Digital looking camera output wise is along the same lines of Records compared to CD's. Yeah records sound better, but then they don't! Well guess who won, CD's. I think Digital is going to win, and win big time 10 years form now, maybe sooner. I hate VR, but I bet it will be way more popular than 3D was, not saying much I guess LoL. Times change, and if you are trying to make money you better change also, young or old.

I will agree, Panasonic has helped the little guy, but Sony has pushed them harder, than I bet they wanted to, on their own. At least Sony has a greater upgrade path, video cameras wise, than Panasonic does. Panny has really screwed up on that part I think. Why would you let Sony, Canon, even BM, just hand your ass to you?? Hell even Red.

I know company's don't sell a lot of the higher end video cameras, but it is the pride of it, the keeping you in the brand of it that counts. Like I said, who the hell is jumping from a GH5 to a Varicam LT? They are 14k at the least. From 2k to 14k, yeah right! That right now is pretty much their stupid ass video camera gap!

[Emanuel]

25 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well I think Digital looking camera output wise is along the same lines of Records compared to CD's. Yeah records sound better, but then they don't! Well guess who won, CD's. I think Digital is going to win, and win big time 10 years form now, maybe sooner. I hate VR, but I bet it will be way more popular than 3D was, not saying much I guess LoL. Times change, and if you are trying to make money you better change also, young or old.

I will agree, Panasonic has helped the little guy, but Sony has pushed them harder, than I bet the wanted to, on their own. At least Sony has a greater upgrade path, video cameras wise, than Panasonic does.

They don't need so. They have put all their eggs in the GH series basket! LOL

Panasonic has offered banding free IQ in a professional recipient going along the magic of slow motion only proper of film realm BTW.

Without mention you can mimic film for cheap on digital. Hard to go on film for less than your dreams to become real from any digital workflow. 

The democratization of technology means GH4/GH5, going hybrid, actually not higher than that, whether we like it whether not :-)

[webrunner5]

18 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

They don't need so. They have put all their eggs in the GH series basket! LOL

Panasonic has offered banding free IQ in a professional recipient going along the magic of slow motion only proper of film realm BTW.

Without mention you can mimic film for cheap on digital. You can't go on film for less than your dreams to become real from any digital workflow. 

Yeah but this bad press, deserved or not, about half ass AF is a REALLY big problem for them now. Even Panny fans are holding back, just think about people that are thinking about jumping ship, what they are thinking. This is Not a good thing for them, Panny.

If Sony comes out with some new, better mouse trap, A great A7III, well it might be game over if this new camera that is suppose to come out is a 7 grand or more, and the GH5 AF sort of never lives up to spec as well as we would want. And the Low light, DR bragging has not really come to true like they said. They have a nice camera here in the GH5, great has yet to be proven! I can tell you it is not on my radar. No way. 

I will hold out to see what Sony comes out with first if I am buying anything new. And these Firmware upgrades are more smoke and mirrors than real benefits. 400mbs All-I is well, not what I would want, not in a body the size of a GH5. I can think of a better codec than that. It starts with a R.

[Emanuel]

7 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but this bad press, deserved or not, about half ass AF is a REALLY big problem for them now. Even Panny fans are holding back, just think about people that are thinking about jumping ship, what they are thinking. This is Not a good thing for them, Panny.

If Sony comes out with some new, better mouse trap, A great A7III, well it might be game over if this new camera that is suppose to come out is a 7 grand or more, and the GH5AF sort of never lives up to spec well. And the Low light, DR bragging has not really come to true like they said. They have a nice camera here in the GH5, great has yet to be proven! I can tell you it is not on my radar. No way.  I will hold out to see what Sony comes out with first if I am buying anything new. And these Firmware upgrades are more smoke and mirrors than real benefits. 400mbs All-I is well, not what I would want, not in a body the size of a GH5. I can think of a better codec than that. It starts with a R.

I absolutely agree with you.

They would have to clean their house.

dvxuser, for example, is a shadow of old times.

It is a problem of their business, their reps, etc.

Not of their development department or engineering.

It is a pity : (

Maybe they'll hire me (who knows? :-D) and their trouble will tend to solve but never by their own as they seem to think.

It requires expertise, strategy and hard work. They simply don't look like to feel like.

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I know company's don't sell a lot of the higher end video cameras, but it is the pride of it, the keeping you in the brand of it that counts. Like I said, who the hell is jumping from a GH5 to a Varicam LT? They are 14k at the least. From 2k to 14k, yeah right! That right now is pretty much their stupid ass video camera gap!

Working on a short film next week with a Panasonic Varicam LT! Looking forward to my first time getting my hands on it.

[Fritz Pierre]

13 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Right. They don't even compare to Varicam though. There's no other similar capture device IMO. Arri stands below to my mileage eyes.

Agreed...image is completely subjective...when a director makes a choice, it's his eye that needs to be satisfied...if he can't immerse himself in the image he or she uses to tell the story, it will be told poorly...I love the look of the Alexa...though I love the look of the F35 more...as for the Varicam 35 or LT...now in defense of that statement...for those who love the 5Dymk 3...because it shoots RAW....so does the Varicam....so hire a colorist.....to my eye, there is no camera in its league....period...and that's what matters to me as a storyteller...and when it comes right down to it...we're all just having a conversation here....expressing our opinions...nothing truly quantifiable....because the reason for shooting moving images, is TO WATCH THEM MOVING!....not zoomed in 400 percent and frozen for discussion but moving on a screen telling a story....so IMO...we are all experts...and on the other end none of us are...as in the final moment the only one that needs to be satisfied with the image they choose is the filmmaker themself...to my eye both these cameras produce a lovely image...so I'm tankful that my eye is not so critical that I can never see past the camera lol

13 hours ago, dbp said:

Panasonic used to be known for their mojo, in light of being technically inferior in some ways. I've found most of the Varicam stuff to be quite nice. Seems like RED and Arri are so established that the high end nut is hard to crack, as opposed to the Varicam not being up to the task. 

I think with Netflix rapidly becoming the biggest "studio" in the world that nut is cracking quite fast!

[webrunner5]

10 hours ago, Emanuel said:

LOL Beyond Super 8 for sure, but can't be Super 16 mm, you're older than that! :-P

You should also know I am a film lover : ) Just can't ignore Panasonic has pushed the envelope of this industry more than any other contender. And that digital technology is not the opposite of film, only its part II :-)

That VW Bug in that film looks like a 1966-1967. That is when I first was there 1967. Maybe late 1966? So hell I might have been riding in that Bug!!

[AaronChicago]

Masters Of None is shooting on the Varicam 35.

[Fritz Pierre]

Emanuel makes an excellent and often overlooked point earlier in this thread...these are capturing devices...most of the creamy Alexa images you see on the big screen in features with a budget have been converted to film, for those beautiful buttery highlight rolloffs, before the final conversion to digital projection...so the final result is rarely judged in equal terms....Fincher still uses RED cameras exclusively (could be wrong hear) but after acquisition everything is converted to film....one could say that RED can't hold a candle to Arri, yet to my taste Cinematography in Fincher's films are simply stunning...visually some of the most beautiful films out there IMO...

[webrunner5]

9 hours ago, Emanuel said:

I absolutely agree with you.

They would have to clean their house.

dvxuser, for example, is a shadow of old times.

It is a problem of their business, their reps, etc.

Not of their development department or engineering.

It is a pity : (

Maybe they'll hire me (who knows? :-D) and their trouble will tend to solve but never by their own as they seem to think.

It requires expertise, strategy and hard work. They simply don't look like to feel like.

Well, you know you have the skill set to probably solve a lot of their problems LoL.

[Fritz Pierre]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Working on a short film next week with a Panasonic Varicam LT! Looking forward to my first time getting my hands on it.

Lucky devil...please share your thoughts on the cam once you used it!

6 minutes ago, AaronChicago said:

Masters Of None is shooting on the Varicam 35.

Yes....more and more DP's are shooting stuff with this camera....and they love it....and without exception they all talk about the dual native ISO feature and that last shot they managed to grab with no light before going into the dreaded Golden Hour....and make no mistake, producers take notice when they get that last shot, without the crew going into double time!...Panasonic has entered the Cine Camera market with a very solid contender here...and just as with Tessla....who has just surpassed GM in the largest US car company holdings, Panasonic will and has taken the long view with the Varicam and they are in the game to stay...

[dbp]

That's cool, would love to see the Varicam really succeed. If nothing else, it's nice to see the high end not monopolized by 2 companies. Keeps everyone on their toes.

[Fritz Pierre]

1 hour ago, dbp said:

That's cool, would love to see the Varicam really succeed. If nothing else, it's nice to see the high end not monopolized by 2 companies. Keeps everyone on their toes.

Exactly...if the GH cameras have done a service to people who don't like them, it's that they force the competition to up their game with each release they come up with...and then Panasonic incorporates a lot of those GH features into their less expensive lines following their GH release....with the Varicam line the competition can only be healthy...and in the LT you now have a cinema camera cheap enough to buy new instead of rent...first cinema camera to do this....

[webrunner5]

4 hours ago, Fritz Pierre said:

Emanuel makes an excellent and often overlooked point earlier in this thread...these are capturing devices...most of the creamy Alexa images you see on the big screen in features with a budget have been converted to film, for those beautiful buttery highlight rolloffs, before the final conversion to digital projection...so the final result is rarely judged in equal terms....Fincher still uses RED cameras exclusively (could be wrong hear) but after acquisition everything is converted to film....one could say that RED can't hold a candle to Arri, yet to my taste Cinematography in Fincher's films are simply stunning...visually some of the most beautiful films out there IMO...

Yeah Fincher does have a "different" mix of both a Film And a Digital look to his later stuff. His films even have a different Cadence to others. I guess him and Brad Pitt are going for it again.

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/04/david-fincher-brad-pitt

 

[Emanuel]

Done with likes for today, so here's expressing my public appreciation on your words, guys :-)

[deezid]

So the example posted here from the GH5 was with sharpening at -5 or 0?
It looks terrible to me, especially on her hair and skin.

The 4.6k Ursa is lightyears ahead. The Ursa Mini Pro is supposed to be way better than the original Ursa 4.6k even!

[Emanuel]

9 minutes ago, deezid said:

So the example posted here from the GH5 was with sharpening at -5 or 0?
It looks terrible to me, especially on her hair and skin.

The 4.6k Ursa is lightyears ahead. The Ursa Mini Pro is supposed to be way better than the original Ursa 4.6k even!

Aaron already said: -5. I guess Ursa Mini Pro offers the same IQ. I just don't understand you, Dennis. I follow and share your concern on over processed approach, as stated. But you're a man of post, c'mon... Without mention the best GH4 outcome out there has come from your hands.