Should I buy a Samsung NX1 now May 2017???

[Thai Kiên Triệu]

6 hours ago, Kisaha said:

@Thai Kiên Triệu

This is a serious A-B camera combo, you got there. And cheapest in industry, as it seems.

I wouldn't sell all my primes though. Think about it first. Which ones do you own?

I own the 16mm, 30mm and 45mm 2d/3d

[Kisaha]

4 hours ago, Thai Kiên Triệu said:

I own the 16mm, 30mm and 45mm 2d/3d

If you do gimbal work the 16mm could be convinient to have. 30mm is very sharp/tiny/super light to complement your NX500. 45 is my opinion is one of the best NX lenses available and 1.8f at 45mm while thr S is 2.8f (it is not much, but in practice does matter a bit). 

You have to keep at least one out of the three.

[Talkinggod]

if I had known the Shwedagon Pagoda would give such an incredible array of colour in sky and location when I happened to be there whilst  magical twilight descended,  I would have brought a tripod to stabilise my NX1 with 16 -50,  never the less incredible colour and the VIDEO viewed on an 8000 series Samsung 4K  is UNREAL I mean almost 3D REAL unreal .  Untouched Jpeg 

[Francesco Tasselli]

Dear friends, just coming back to the title of this thread.. I have both, Sony A7s II and Samsung NX1, and I know very well both.

Yesterday I have tried for first time the Zeiss Distagon 28 f/2 Zf.2 on NX1, and my friends, in the screen of my laptop I've seen God. Great 3D, amazing colors, incredibly alive images, an interstellar trip. Never seen something like that on my Sony A7s II.

And the world still ignores this prodigious camera called NX1.

I know, I should get over it, but I cannot.

 

[Kevin Kwok]

Dropped by to say thanks to Andrew Reid and everyone on this sub-forum for generously sharing their knowledge ... and add that I think the NX1 is still very relevant in today's market. 

Here's my story, I was looking for a small and light B Cam for a Red Dragon and decided to spend the last month really getting to know the NX1 because I like how close the out-of-camera images look to the Red.  I advocate for not heavily grading DSLR images and trying to get as close to what I can in-camera ... playing to the DSLR's strengths and avoiding its weaknesses, like codec and bit rates.  I shot this with the NX1 and a DJI Mavic as a test, all images are ungraded, straight out of camera and through Premiere's and Youtube's compression ...

EQUIPMENT USED

. Samsung NX1 with Canon EF 35mm and Samsung NX 16-50mm PZ.
. Beholder DS1
. DJI Mavic

NX1 SETTINGS
. Vasile hack 180Mbps
. Master Black Level +10
. Gamma DR
. Custom Profile R0.90/G0.92/B1.10, Sharpness-10, Contrast-5
. Smartrange on
. DIS on

PS. I had trouble with focusing but have figured out how to assign peaking to the speed dial now, haha, should help.
PPS. the DIS does work well but occasionally does some funky things so I learned that it's important to review the footage carefully.

 

[Juxx989]

@Kevin Kwok Bravo this is great! This is what you call a "Test"  go make a Pateron or something and put this as your pitch video... Get some $$$

I suspect even if you live in Kansas if you just shoot it in french it will look and feel more artistic!

Man this is Out of camera... Id love to take a stab at coloring this... Send me some raw shots

I find in resolve with NX files you can push and pull the Highs and Lows pretty well but if you mess with the Mids it falls apart very quickly...

Good work  and welcome to the Titanic that is NX Gear... We are going down but going down with class

 

[Kisaha]

@Kevin Kwok impressive at least! maybe the 180 is pushing your SD cards a bit. A little less should be absolutely stable.

As you know, the PZ isn't the greatest NX lens, if you could replace (at least for "important" shoots) with the S, you could have full NX power. Especially with out of focus areas and (micro-)contrast, the PZ is an excellent lens for what it is (especially if you compare with other similar lenses that are completely junk).

To be honest I have a problem identify details in youtube. Let's say, the scene where the girl runs in the forest in 1:24, is the PZ there? I can see busy and weird shaped bokeh at the trees, while the highlights are absolute (in a bad way). In night shots also, how high you went with ISO? I little to the mushy side, 1# NX issue (NX500 has similar performance anyway). Just pixel peeping, really. If it wasn't for the low ISO performance, and could zoom in (for focus) while recording, I would keep those cameras for ever (I have 4 NX). Now, GH5 has better performance than NX in high ISO, BUT, the NX has less noise in lower ISO than GH5 (the paradoxes of modern cameras!).

Congrats, excellent job, in producing, editing, and your actors too. Bravo!

I do not agree that we are going down. We own and use amazing tools that others in mirrorless land are still hoping. People that left NX scared of the consequences, are still searching for their system, and go from m43 to Sony, to Eos M, to dSLR, to Fuji, back to m43, and maybe, Sony too. I seriously believe that we saved a lot of money and stress, staying put!

[BopBill]

It is really nice that people who have real cinema cameras are trying to match NX1 picture with their main camera and give us the settings to try out.

Refreshing

[Matthew Hartman]

On 12/6/2017 at 10:50 PM, Kevin Kwok said:

Dropped by to say thanks to Andrew Reid and everyone on this sub-forum for generously sharing their knowledge ... and add that I think the NX1 is still very relevant in today's market. 

Here's my story, I was looking for a small and light B Cam for a Red Dragon and decided to spend the last month really getting to know the NX1 because I like how close the out-of-camera images look to the Red.  I advocate for not heavily grading DSLR images and trying to get as close to what I can in-camera ... playing to the DSLR's strengths and avoiding its weaknesses, like codec and bit rates.  I shot this with the NX1 and a DJI Mavic as a test, all images are ungraded, straight out of camera and through Premiere's and Youtube's compression ...

EQUIPMENT USED

. Samsung NX1 with Canon EF 35mm and Samsung NX 16-50mm PZ.
. Beholder DS1
. DJI Mavic

NX1 SETTINGS
. Vasile hack 180Mbps
. Master Black Level +10
. Gamma DR
. Custom Profile R0.90/G0.92/B1.10, Sharpness-10, Contrast-5
. Smartrange on
. DIS on

PS. I had trouble with focusing but have figured out how to assign peaking to the speed dial now, haha, should help.
PPS. the DIS does work well but occasionally does some funky things so I learned that it's important to review the footage carefully.

 

Haha, I stumbled on your video on my own and posted a link in a new separate thread. I'm very impressed AND I like the style and flow of the narrative in this trailer. It is very shall we say, "French"? 

Some of the footage is a little soft, I'm not sure the technical reason behind that on your end. I watched it on my 55" 4K TV and it doesnt hold up well. It's almost as if there's condensation or vasoline on your lens. 

I know for myself I have the opposite challenge, meaning I always have to add slight Gaussian blur to my footage to warm it up, and match other cams. The NX1's 6.5k sensor resolves an incrediable (and unnatural) amount of detail. Some critics think the footage is oversharpened, but that's incorrect. It's actually highly highly, detailed, downscaling a 6.5k image to 4k, there's a difference. Even recent cams in the mid range don't resolve this much detail. This can be both the strength and "weakness" of NX1 footage.

You want a crisp image, true, but you dont want that crispness where you don't want it. If you compare RED footage to NX1 footage, you'll see RED footage is soft in areas you want softness, giving it a creamy, silky property, highly sought after, yet you still get high detail in areas you want detail/sharpness. Of course, since you get more DR and more color depth, you also get smoother gradients. 

You CAN work the NX1 footage to emulate the RED look and feel. Where the NX1 falls apart is it's 4.2.0 8bit color depth. You can aviod the common banding issues by avoiding gradients in certain colors/hues.

Also, the NX1 grades quite well for not being 10bit as long as you don't push your black levels too far. Personally, I think subtlety in grade is key. High contrast footage is usually the dead giveaway that something was shot on a DSLR/DSLM and find a lot of grading advice given online actually not good advice at all. A bit of monkey see, monkey do, that the inexperienced don't know to question. 

However, if I put my general audience glasses on it doesn't matter. Your trailer still looks visually stunning and the storyline looks very intriguing. You have a good sense for using natural light to your advantage and your trailer was cut beautifully, which is not as easy as it looks. 

Also, when we love (a spouse, lover, child, etc) we also inherently suffer it's enivitable demise, the two are interlocked by the law of impermanence. I feel like you captured the essence of this.  

To escape this cycle of suffering we must let go of the constant wanting and move into a realm of acceptance, or letting go of the control we fool ourselves into believing we have. Simple in theory, almost impossible in practice. 

[Matthew Hartman]

Also, thank you, thank you for letting your dark scenes be dark. I feel like in the gimmicky high ISO craze, suddenly we've become concerned about taking darkness away. The darkness is as much a storytelling tool as the light. We don't always have to see the detail lurking in the shadows. Let it be a mystery. 

[لطفي بوعكاز]

After 2 years Iam still in love with it, I won't buy new one now I'd probably wait for Canon 1DX mk2 to get cheaper on 2nd hand market until then I still do low budget music videos so the money is tight can't afford yet to get bigger better..at the end for normal people's eyes it's the story, framing, lighting that really matters not pixel peeps. 

here's my latest video shot in London with NX1

 

[keessie65]

Looks really good   لطفي بوعكاز  , can you tell me a bit more about your settings and grading? Thank you!

 

[Matthew Hartman]

On 12/19/2017 at 7:11 PM, لطفي بوعكاز said:

After 2 years Iam still in love with it, I won't buy new one now I'd probably wait for Canon 1DX mk2 to get cheaper on 2nd hand market until then I still do low budget music videos so the money is tight can't afford yet to get bigger better..at the end for normal people's eyes it's the story, framing, lighting that really matters not pixel peeps. 

here's my latest video shot in London with NX1

 

This is well done and a good example of what can be done with this camera in experienced hands. Which is true for most systems but the NX1 does have a certain character.

Truth be told, sometimes I'm really partial to it, and then sometimes I'm very bothered by it when it's done poorly.

Unfortunately, the camera wasn't around long enough to propegate the more pro circuit, so we see a lot of mediocre "test footage" developed by amatuers and enthusists of the camera. A lot of the more pro level early adopters jumped ship right after Samsung pulled out. 

I don't mean to offend anyone but there's a lot more poor or unenthusiastic examples of NX1/500 footage online than compelling examples such as yours. 

Your video captures all the great aspects I love about the camera and you seem well acclimated into knowing how to get a really professional grade out of its footage, which for most of us is where the image falls apart. Or, moreover where our inexperience really shows up the most. Color grading is a real skill set. 

The community could really benefit from some of your technical process and I hope you consider sharing some of it here. 

One of my problems with the NX1 is it's 8bit color space. Its easy to feel left out of the modern 10bit/HDR/4k 60fps wave that's happening right now.

When the camera was released in 2014, it's direct competitors, meaning Sony and Panasonic, did 8bit as well internally. But now the NX1 has been far surpassed in that regard. It becomes harder for me to justify sticking with the NX1 system, especially when I see a lot of banding and artifacts in it's footage in some scenarios.  

I sorely wish someone hacked or would hack the NX1/500 sensor to at least get those features with an external recorder. It would actually revive a nearly 4 year old camera into being an industry-leading product again without Samsung even having to re-enter the market. It would also give new life to a dying system and save us from the challenges the competitor's can't seem to solve well. I don't want a micro four-thirds sensor, even at 10bit. 

Still, despite those limitations the NX1/500 sensor is still a solid option even in 2018. One may feel a bit of anxiety about spending money on a dead system, and the industry (not just Samsung) has all but forgotten about this camera even when doing comparison videos with older cams like the GH4 to newer cams, the NX1/500 hardly gets a mention. But even with all that I hardly believe anyone, be that a professional or general audience member, would question your video as anything but professional-grade cinematic. And if they did, they're just pixel peeping or bias, and who honestly cares about that at the end of the day? I'm sure your client was more than happy.  

Let's face it, that's the look we're all going for isn't it? You've captured it and played to the camera's strengths. Please share with us your process? 

[لطفي بوعكاز]

On 12/20/2017 at 4:37 PM, keessie65 said:

Looks really good   لطفي بوعكاز  , can you tell me a bit more about your settings and grading? Thank you!

 

Thanks guys, it's really not my best work with this camera because it was done on a run and gun basis we didn't have enough time for filming but it's a combination of experience and really this forum what made me learn about this camera.

I use Gamma DR with -4 con -4 sat and -10 sharpness and +7 master black level with 16-235 color space... I learned never to shoot when the sky is clear blue to avoid banding, so as you can see lots of clouds is good idea, I avoid plain walls in the background to avoid microblocking "even using higher bitrates" my ISO never goes beyond 250 this is my own tests shows skintones tend to become plastic and loss of details above that especially in 1080p so always 250 iso or under, if it's dark then you've got to add more lighting. also I have noise reduction turned off in camera, this is because I do my own noise reduction in post but it's up to you. 

white balance is very important, it's always custom mode or chose a preset, never chose auto because it'll keep shifting and changing and ruins your color grade.  when it comes to color grading, I slap on an LUT built for rec-709 one of them is Aspen by Ricardo in this forum which I really  but the M31 Lut for rec 709 works great.  but some adjustments are needed, an LUT supose to just help you as a base, then you've got to build up on it by tweaking highlights and stuff depending on what you do. I find that in adobe premiere having to reduce the LUT to 80% when you start to see the grading too harsh and shows microblocking (yeah 8bit  ) 

this camera is okay with under-exposed footage just not over-exposed, avoid blown skintones at all costs. 

I usually have two grades for a single shot, for example I want the singers face to be brighter than the background so I add a mask of grading just on her face this makes her stands out from the background and the back dancers. 

I shoot 1080P slow mo only in bright places or daylight, but always for close'ups because the quality of 1080p is degraded so in wide angle shot of a person the skintone becomes mushy and muddy so as you can see in the video it's almost always medium to close'up. I try to use as much 4k downgraded to 1080p as possible and use as little 1080p out of the camera as possible. 

if the nx1 had clean 1080P at 50fps I wouldn't need to upgrade it's an amazing camera...but now since slow-mo is what my clients always ask for I'm having to upgrade sadly to GH5 with 4k at 50fps  

PS: one trick you can do is, find your favourite video that you like their color grade, download it, put it on your timeline then just match their levels with histogram and color levels, this helps me find the right number for the luminance of the face and level of each color. 

 

 

[Matthew Hartman]

13 minutes ago, لطفي بوعكاز said:

Thanks guys, it's really not my best work with this camera because it was done on a run and gun basis we didn't have enough time for filming but it's a combination of experience and really this forum what made me learn about this camera.

I use Gamma DR with -4 con -4 sat and -10 sharpness and +7 master black level with 16-235 color space... I learned never to shoot when the sky is clear blue to avoid banding, so as you can see lots of clouds is good idea, I avoid plain walls in the background to avoid microblocking "even using higher bitrates" my ISO never goes beyond 250 this is my own tests shows skintones tend to become plastic and loss of details above that especially in 1080p so always 250 iso or under, if it's dark then you've got to add more lighting. also I have noise reduction turned off in camera, this is because I do my own noise reduction in post but it's up to you. 

white balance is very important, it's always custom mode or chose a preset, never chose auto because it'll keep shifting and changing and ruins your color grade.  when it comes to color grading, I slap on an LUT built for rec-709 one of them is Aspen by Ricardo in this forum which I really  but the M31 Lut for rec 709 works great.  but some adjustments are needed, an LUT supose to just help you as a base, then you've got to build up on it by tweaking highlights and stuff depending on what you do. I find that in adobe premiere having to reduce the LUT to 80% when you start to see the grading too harsh and shows microblocking (yeah 8bit  ) 

this camera is okay with under-exposed footage just not over-exposed, avoid blown skintones at all costs. 

I usually have two grades for a single shot, for example I want the singers face to be brighter than the background so I add a mask of grading just on her face this makes her stands out from the background and the back dancers. 

I shoot 1080P slow mo only in bright places or daylight, but always for close'ups because the quality of 1080p is degraded so in wide angle shot of a person the skintone becomes mushy and muddy so as you can see in the video it's almost always medium to close'up. I try to use as much 4k downgraded to 1080p as possible and use as little 1080p out of the camera as possible. 

if the nx1 had clean 1080P at 50fps I wouldn't need to upgrade it's an amazing camera...but now since slow-mo is what my clients always ask for I'm having to upgrade sadly to GH5 with 4k at 50fps  

 

 

Great tips! I can see the logic behind all of them. I actually have the same settings, except Ive enable Smart Range + (in the movie tab) which gives you a little more DR.  

Are you using the birate hack by chance? 

Also, I'm curious, how do your clients perceive the quality of the work you're giving them? Are they mentioning the flaws you address personally here? What's driving you to feel the need to move on to other systems? I'm very curious. I'm going through similar thoughts myself. 

Although, I won't be getting a GH5. But I'm interested to hear your experience with it coming from an NX1. 

I feel like 8bit is suddenly becoming demonized now that manufactures are promising 10bit under $3000. All major distribution channels are still 8bit so it will be interesting to weigh the perceived value of having a 10bit system against real world application. 

Just looking at the thumbnail of the video you posted, I seriously doubt any general audience is going to perceive that as anything but professional quality, or what we're all used to seeing on screen. 

When I was watching your video I got into the woman and her raping and started to identify and relate to her, forgetting about the technicalities. THAT is exactly what you want.

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, Matthew Hartman said:

I feel like 8bit is suddenly becoming demonized now that manufactures are promising 10bit under $3000. All major distribution channels are still 8bit so it will be interesting to weigh the perceived value of having a 10bit system against real world application. 

 

The flexibility in grading is the major benefit of 10bit, nothing to do with the final delivery spec. 

[Kisaha]

Not even C200 has a 10bit codec. Panasonic is pushing the envelope, and well done, but that doesn't mean that 10 bit unlimited-bitrate codecs or raw (and their extra needs in data space and processing power, and advanced -and expensive- workflows) is a necessity for everyone (or most).

Personally, I am investing in other equipment right now. I will re-access the market after I have seen all the players and most of the trends. HDR is definitely one (and 10bit is part of it) but we are a couple of years away, from being a couple of years away, from it being a delivery standard.

[Matthew Hartman]

4 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Personally, I am investing in other equipment right now. I will re-access the market after I have seen all the players and most of the trends. HDR is definitely one (and 10bit is part of it) but we are a couple of years away, from being a couple of years away, from it being a delivery standard.

I think this is a wise approach. I always favor caution over expediency when it comes to technology, because I work in the tech industry.

Unfortunately, a lot of half baked technology is pushed on consumers as selling point marketing, which is usually decided on by someone in a high position in a given company that doesn't necessarily care about the quality of the product, the hard work team's invest in it, nor of consumers outside the realm of their pocket books.

I speak from direct experience of the countless times various teams and I worked months, sometimes years to develop something innovative, all to be squashed within two seconds time by a higher up whom is completely out of touch with their demographic, and interjects way too much personal preference, often uninspired and outdated. Layoffs usually follow. 

[لطفي بوعكاز]

Thanks everyone, the 10 bit isn't what's making me upgrade, there's little difference anyway, it's really 14bit and above that you start to see some real difference which will be worthwhile for color grading giving you extra headroom so you don't need to worry too much while shooting if you're exposed correctly or not. 

it's really high framerate at 4k.  even my output is in 1080p, the 4k downsampled to 1080p gives you 4:4:4 pixel sampling which is the highest 1080P you can get. however because it's limited to 25fps, in music videos which is what I do most, it's not great. music videos need quick cuts, and there's only so much you can film, so we always need to slow down the action so we can fill'up time. 

Clients find me from my previous videos, they like what they see and they expect the same or better. I've never had a client ask what camera you use, because I deal with the artist directly so they have no interest in the technical bits...they just want you to take care of it all and talk the least tech language as possible. This video above, her previous video was made by a production company with Cinema Camera and Jib and all and she paid 5 times more, yet the result was disappointing for her so she came to me after that. (they could only film her in 1 location because the gear is big and bulky to move around, camera movement was limited, no story it had to be shot all same'day) When I work with Agencies, they do ask what Camera and lenses you use, I tell them it's 4K DSLR and give them a link to the videos I make, and tell them if they wish for Cinema Camera, it can be rented but because they're usually on a deadline and small budget they prefer I use mine. 

I enjoy the limitations and the challenge, it's fun :D 

 

here's another one with NX1. note that every interior scene required 2 x 100W LED lights with diffusers.... exteriors no lights just daylight alone

 

[IronFilm]

35 minutes ago, لطفي بوعكاز said:

This video above, her previous video was made by a production company with Cinema Camera and Jib and all and she paid 5 times more, yet the result was disappointing for her so she came to me after that. (they could only film her in 1 location because the gear is big and bulky to move around, camera movement was limited, no story it had to be shot all same'day)

May you link to her previous video? Curious as to what it looks like.