Canon C200 and Panasonic rival camera to fight it out at CineGear Expo

[Andrew Reid]

It's almost time for NAB's hotter sister CineGear Expo which starts on June 1st. Panasonic will take the tablecloth off their new AF100-style cinema camera and we will find out what the Canon C200 entails.

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[gelaxstudio]

C200 with the specs better than FS5？ I vote no~

Looking forward to see a new  Panasonic cinecam，which is way more interesting，4K 240P with RAW and Priced under $6000？:P

[Andrew Reid]

An FS5 with Dual Pixel AF and Canon colour = C200 though

Sort of (doubtful it will have 4K RAW output and high frame rates)

[Nikkor]

When Samsung killed their Camera lineup I read something about a deal with canon about exchanging tech including Dual Pixel. 

[Andrew Reid]

Canon invented their own Dual Pixel AF way before Samsung closed the camera business though. Been around since the 70D.

[Oliver Daniel]

Funnily I have an FS5 with Raw Upgrade and the Shogun Inferno. 

I can shoot 2k 200fps, 4k 100fps, Raw, ProRes, etc etc....

Also a big HDR screeeeen!!!

HOWEVER

I actually much prefer shooting with the A6500 or A7S II because they are small yet produce really high quality images. Slog2. Also IBIS on vintage lenses! CHEAP (ish). 

Had strange, weird thoughts about getting rid of them all and getting a GH5 with the audio thingy and buying lots of groovy lenses. But then decided that might not be the best thing to do. Or is it, if i like small cameras better? Or not? Or? Hmmm.....

This new Panasonic is interesting..... and I do think the C200 is too. They can't just release the C200 with 4k 8bit as the only upgrade, surely? 

p.s I prefer taking pics with my wife's Canon 700d than the A6500....there's a deep feeling of satisfaction with taking those Canon images.......

[Nikkor]

22 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Canon invented their own Dual Pixel AF way before Samsung closed the camera business though. Been around since the 70D.

I meant it the other way, canon giving Samsung access to DPAF for their cellphones. It was posted here or in some rumor site back then I believe.

[Kisaha]

@Andrew Reid 

Truth is, that only Samsung has Dual Pixel technology in their mobile phones, so I would guess there is some kind of licensing going on.

Co-operating with Samsung would be very positive for the older players, such Canon and Nikon, that seem to missing some innovation in the connectivity/touch screen/mirrorless era. Samsung is the only other sensor manufacture that can make a dent to the Sony-owned industry.

Also, there are a lot of us, even here, preferring the C100/FS5 form, as our workhorses, and dSLR/mirrorless as B or C cameras to our workflows. Also, A7sIII needs more things than better AF to compete with these kind of cameras (C200/C100iii-Panasonic light mini).

[Andrew Reid]

47 minutes ago, Nikkor said:

I meant it the other way, canon giving Samsung access to DPAF for their cellphones. It was posted here or in some rumor site back then I believe.

It still doesn't make sense for Canon to give away their IP to a smartphone camera manufacturer who is killing their business.

Sony makes the sensors for a large proportion of the S7 and S8 handsets that are out there... more likely they licensed it from Sony.

Sony have been doing phase detect CMOS for a while but not yet Dual Pixel AF outside of smartphone chips.

I am sure they will scale the technology up sooner or later.

[Kisaha]

@Andrew Reid

From where the industry is (and where it goes), Canon has nothing to do with entry-entry-entry level devices such camera phones. It's ok to have a couple of dead cheap compacts, just in case, but in a couple of years that won't even make 0,000001% (add zeros accordingly!) of Canon's net profit.

Canon has to move into mobile phone's territory, look at Leica and others, it is an industry they will never compete, it's better to get something -imagine a mobile phone "powered by Canon"- that will appeal to a lot of Canon lovers (and they are a bunch), than nothing to do at all, in the biggest retail industry in the whole world.

Also I doubt that alone, Canon can compete with the 90% (or something) of a Sony dominant market. Remember 2014's NX1 sensor? and CPU? and fast memory read out? I doubt that Canon has reached this level now, even 3 years later.

The Sony sensors are MANUFACTURED by Sony image sensoring division, are not designed by them, and why not utilize one of the few things Canon has a clear advantage against Sony? Canon without Dual Pixel would be nothing in 2017.

Anyway, we will see, we don't really know for sure any of these!!

 

[Arikhan]

@Kisaha

Full ACK! Though, when talking Canon vs Sony, please consider the service factor...Canon is known for a (mostly) perfect service - Sony is far away from this. And a reliable service is crucial for pros...It will be very hard for any camera manufacturer to reach the service quality (repair, etc.) and area coverage of Canon...

And from consumer POV, Canon is PHOTOGRAPHY & IMAGING. Their brand is very, very strong. It will be very hard for Sony to get their brand associated with photography and general imaging in buyers mind (film)...Never underestimate the power of an established and powerful brand like Canon, even if ultraconservative and hostile to innovation in their product releases. Technology and innovation are only 2 aspects of the story...We should always also consider built quality, ergonomics, usabilty, etc. And from this point of view, Sony should learn very fast for getting a serious competitior for Canon products.

On the other side, Sony is from technology point of view a fantastic catalyst for the digital imaging market, so Canon should feel forced to more and faster innovation within their product lines...I hope, great times for digital imaging enthusiasts....

[wolf33d]

I dont care about those bulky stuff. 

I want a mirrorless with proper codec, IBIS, DPAF. Panasonic missed everything for me with the GH5 and lack of proper AF. 

A7SIII, if getting all advancement from A9 (not sure, as I am afraid they will make us pay 4500$ for an A9s for that) including the good AF could be nice. Coupled with an A7RIII for landscapes. But Sony always have it wrong. 

New Canon FF mirrorless is for 2018. We can hope that by then they give proper video specs to their camera. After all here on EOSHD, I launched a topic 1-2year ago saying for sure 5D4 will have 4K. Everybody laughed at me saying this would not happen. 
So by 2018, Maybe we have a proper specced FF mirrorless from Canon for video. 

Still waiting for Nikon...... 
 

[OliKMIA]

1 hour ago, wolf33d said:

New Canon FF mirrorless is for 2018. We can hope that by then they give proper video specs to their camera. After all here on EOSHD, I launched a topic 1-2year ago saying for sure 5D4 will have 4K. Everybody laughed at me saying this would not happen. 
So by 2018, Maybe we have a proper specced FF mirrorless from Canon for video.

The new canon FF in 2018 is still speculation and even if that happens we can count on Canon to be another disappointment in the video department. They'll probably only have 4k30 perhaps with no or little crop. With DPAF and canon color it will still be nice though.
Meanwhile Sony will have 4k60 and much more stuff, the GH6 will probably be 8k, etc

Yeah there's 4k on the 5D4 but the thing is so crippled that it's useless. Just good to put a "4k ready" sticker on the box.

[ntblowz]

I just tell my boss to upgrade to either camera if they turns out good, as we start to get client demand 4K shooting and delivery which have to use my machine or hire c300mkii but cost money for renting thus make less profit

 

Meanwhile I just use those would be "camera monies" to save up for deposite for bigger purchase cough house cough, gotta draw the line on how much you gonna spend on hobbies. (Gonna slim down my camera collection as I use them much less)

[tugela]

6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

It still doesn't make sense for Canon to give away their IP to a smartphone camera manufacturer who is killing their business.

Sony makes the sensors for a large proportion of the S7 and S8 handsets that are out there... more likely they licensed it from Sony.

Sony have been doing phase detect CMOS for a while but not yet Dual Pixel AF outside of smartphone chips.

I am sure they will scale the technology up sooner or later.

The cameras were Samsungs, designed by Samsung, with Sony doing contract manufacturing to fill out the supply chain. DPAF would not have been licensed from Sony, the license would have come from Canon. It is not as though the technology is secret, so from Canon's point of view it doesn't matter who manufactures the cameras for Samsung, as long as they get their royalty. License agreements allow you the right to get your stuff manufactured wherever and however you feel like, you don't have to make it yourself.

Canon don't care that Samsung makes cell phone cameras. Cell phones will take the low end of the photo market no matter what Canon does. At least this way Canon gets a slice of that pie, which they otherwise would not get.

Sony can scale all they want, but until Canon's patents expire they will not be able to use the tech in their own products. They can make cameras under contract for other companies that DO have a license, but they can't make cameras for themselves without infringement. This is how IP works.

[tyger11]

5 hours ago, tugela said:

The cameras were Samsungs, designed by Samsung, with Sony doing contract manufacturing to fill out the supply chain. DPAF would not have been licensed from Sony, the license would have come from Canon. It is not as though the technology is secret, so from Canon's point of view it doesn't matter who manufactures the cameras for Samsung, as long as they get their royalty. License agreements allow you the right to get your stuff manufactured wherever and however you feel like, you don't have to make it yourself.

Canon don't care that Samsung makes cell phone cameras. Cell phones will take the low end of the photo market no matter what Canon does. At least this way Canon gets a slice of that pie, which they otherwise would not get.

Sony can scale all they want, but until Canon's patents expire they will not be able to use the tech in their own products. They can make cameras under contract for other companies that DO have a license, but they can't make cameras for themselves without infringement. This is how IP works.

Sony has a DPAF patent: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-patented-dual-pixel-sensor-similar-canon-version/

 

[IronFilm]

15 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

At the wonderful CineGear Expo show on the Paramount studios lot in Hollywood, we will find out if Panasonic have messed it up by putting the Micro Four Thirds sensor in there or if it will be a proper Super 35mm sensor with EF mount and therefore a direct competitor to the Canon C300 Mark II at a much lower price (thumbs-up).

I would not mind at all if Panasonic releases it with a MFT sensor, *if* that means the camera can hit a very low price point such as say US$3.5K??

Who wouldn't want a GH5 with built in NDs, SDI out, TC, and XLR for US$3.5K!

[Geoff CB]

7 hours ago, Elagabalus said:

Spoiler alert: Panasonic will win this fight. 

If it's Super 35, yes. If it's MTF (2x crop) mount? Nope.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, Geoff CB said:

If it's Super 35, yes. If it's MTF mount? Nope.

Don't get mount and sensor size mixed up. 

My dream is it is a locking MFT mount! 

[Kisaha]

Guys, the solution is already done, LS300, variable sensor.