Would You Perhaps Be Interested In A Different GX80/85 Colour Profile???

[jonpais]

11 minutes ago, mercer said:

And you're using Leeming LUT and his settings... right?

The clips I just shared are SOOC. Presumably, if I had used the highlight/shadow pickers or the Leeming LUT, the results would look better.

To the best of my knowledge, no one has done an extensive test of the X-Rite ColorChecker, Color Finale, Cinelike D and ETTR in the same review. I'm currently at work on one, but as usual, no scientific method, just examples how I shoot and color correct, what works for me. I strongly encourage everyone to do their own testing to see what works for them, and to not just follow what I or anyone else has to say. I blindly followed the opinion makers in forums for years, and my results were the worse for it.

[Orangenz]

41 minutes ago, mercer said:

it's best to nail your exposure in camera, or go slightly under and pull up.

You won't believe this, but my horoscope for today said exactly the same thing! 

[mercer]

1 minute ago, Orangenz said:

You won't believe this, but my horoscope for today said exactly the same thing! 

Did I mention I write horoscopes on the side. 

[sanveer]

6 hours ago, jonpais said:

It's been a little while now since BTM_Pix shared his hack for the GX80, but still no sample footage. I'd be interested to see whether the profile really resembles Cinelike D in the G85. The following is straight out of the camera, no color correction, no sharpening, nada. It has not been exposed to the right, it is just for comparing how skin tones and dynamic range compare with your footage. 

 

 

Nice video. Though the highlights are mildly clipped. Could you share your settings? Suddenly I feel this forum may be the perfect place to share the perfect settings for CinelikeD on the Panasonic GX85. I am guessing that instead of exposing 1/2 stop undef, maybe we expose somethinglike 1/3rd stop under. Cause CinelikeD brings life back in the shadows, seriously lifting detail there. 

[jonpais]

4 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Nice video. Though the highlights are mildly clipped. Could you share your settings? Suddenly I feel this forum Amy be the perfect place to share the perfect settings for CinelikeD on the Panasonic GX85. I am guessing that instead of exposing 1/2 stop undef, maybe we expose somethinglike 1/3rd stop under. Cause CinelikeD brings life back in the shadows, seriously lifting detail there. 

Settings are simple: -3 sharpening, -5 noise reduction.  And a touch of coriander to taste.

[jonpais]

11 hours ago, sanveer said:

Nice video. Though the highlights are mildly clipped. Could you share your settings? Suddenly I feel this forum may be the perfect place to share the perfect settings for CinelikeD on the Panasonic GX85. I am guessing that instead of exposing 1/2 stop undef, maybe we expose somethinglike 1/3rd stop under. Cause CinelikeD brings life back in the shadows, seriously lifting detail there. 

The fluorescent lights in the upper right and the patch of sky to the upper left just beneath the awning are clipping at or just above 100 IRE.

[BucksterUK]

well I took this in with the CineD setting applied -but its not exactly anything that would show off the setting - just some footage from the garden 

I uploaded file direct to youtube

I didn't take with any other settings - but the background seems very "stable" - no block noise/artefacting which I get sometimes

 

[deezid]

On Cinelike D I would really recommend to turn down saturation to -2 to prevent the red channel from clipping, especially when ETTR...

Apart from that -5/-5 for both sharpening and nr. Since there's still lots of artificial sharpening going on at -5.
The overall picture will be cleaner and more natural.

[sanveer]

2 hours ago, jonpais said:

The fluorescent lights in the upper right and the patch of sky to the upper left just beneath the awning are clipping at or just above 100 IRE (and maybe some specular highlights on my forehead).

Yes. Could you try a test with underexposing by 1/3rd and 1/2 a stop and comparing the results. Thanks in advance. 

[robbino]

Tried CineD using 0,-5,-5,-5 and then applied the free LUT from Noam Kroll, very nice results to my very untrained eye.

[kidzrevil]

6 hours ago, jonpais said:

The clips I just shared are SOOC. Presumably, if I had used the highlight/shadow pickers or the Leeming LUT, the results would look better.

To the best of my knowledge, no one has done an extensive test of the X-Rite ColorChecker, Color Finale, Cinelike D and ETTR in the same review. I'm currently at work on one, but as usual, no scientific method, just examples how I shoot and color correct, what works for me. I strongly encourage everyone to do their own testing to see what works for them, and to not just follow what I or anyone else has to say. I blindly followed the opinion makers in forums for years, and my results were the worse for it.

Whatever works for you is my universal rule. It works for every camera manufacturer & model

7 hours ago, jonpais said:

To the best of my knowledge, no one has done an extensive test of the X-Rite ColorChecker, Color Finale, Cinelike D and ETTR in the same review. 

I would actually donate/hire someone to test this using this stuff. Diagnosing how the Cined curve works would help the community tremendously 

[jonpais]

2 hours ago, sanveer said:

Yes. Could you try a test with underexposing by 1/3rd and 1/2 a stop and comparing the results. Thanks in advance. 

Sure thing!

[Grimor]

Tried Vlog activation in G80 without exit:

-<camrply>

<result>err_param</result>

</camrply>

Do you know the html synthax to request a video quality change?

Thats because when my Vlog code says Iten enable= "no", in other part my code says this: <item enable="yes" id="menu_item_id_v_quality_mp4ed_25p_200mbps"/> (some hopes here?)

Perhaps we only can activate "the enable= yes" part of the code.

[PannySVHS]

46 minutes ago, robbino said:

Tried CineD using 0,-5,-5,-5 and then applied the free LUT from Noam Kroll, very nice results to my very untrained eye.

Yes, it´s Noams CineD setting. I think it follows the right "philosophy". So you´re shooting Cine D on a GX85? Wanna show

some test footage with and without Noams Lut? One of the videos successfully showing off Cine D vs other profiles is this one.

It uses good exposure, good white balance, good light and none of that bad grading, just well shot footage for comparison.

This is the first video, which shown me the benefits of Cine profile.

 

 

[Grimor]

1 hour ago, Grimor said:

Tried Vlog activation in G80 without exit:

-<camrply>

<result>err_param</result>

</camrply>

Do you know the html synthax to request a video quality change?

Thats because when my Vlog code says Iten enable= "no", in other part my code says this: <item enable="yes" id="menu_item_id_v_quality_mp4ed_25p_200mbps"/> (some hopes here?)

Perhaps we only can activate "the enable= yes" part of the code.

Well, i´ve tried and found this  "OK answer" from changing quality settings in my camera" (G80) :

<P><A HREF="http://192.168.54.1/cam.cgi?

mode=setsetting&amp;type=videoquality&amp;value=mp4ed_25p_200mbps">DEPL
OY
25p200mbps</A></P>

But nothing happend , no rejected, but no new features.

Same result with almost all "Enable = yes" features i try.

So, only if says enable "Yes" you can send the command to the camera without be rejected, and even then they are few possibilities that it works.

Lucky you, GX80 Owners!!

The tip of android sniffer (Packet capture) is really great to found the correct syntahx of every request.

Thanks @BTM_Pix , @Robbino , and Folks!

[BTM_Pix]

20 minutes ago, Grimor said:

Well, i´ve tried and found this  "OK answer" from changing quality settings in my camera" (G80) :

<P><A HREF="http://192.168.54.1/cam.cgi?

mode=setsetting&amp;type=videoquality&amp;value=mp4ed_25p_200mbps">DEPL
OY
25p200mbps</A></P>

But nothing happend , no rejected, but no new features.

Same result with almost all "Enable = yes" features i try.

So, only if says enable "Yes" you can send the command to the camera without be rejected, and even then they are few possibilities that it works.

Lucky you, GX80 Owners!!

The tip of android sniffer (Packet capture) is really great to found the correct syntahx of every request.

Thanks @BTM_Pix , @Robbino , and Folks!

The Enable element is purely to tell the smartphone app from the camera which options to show the user so, yes, in virtually all cases it means the camera will only action return commands that match its enabled list. Its use for this purpose is to be able to collect the (usually) type and value parameters for the setsetting function.

As I said earlier in the thread, you should see that that particular command you sent did actually have an effect of sorts in that it will have put the camera into 4k24p mode as unless it is a rate based on a different region (i.e. you'd sent mp4ed_30p_200mbps) then it will accept them but revert to its uppermost setting.

Vlog is unlikely but, again, if you got hold of a rev 2.2 or 2.3 GH4 and found that particular Android version of the ImageApp that enabled Vlog to be activated for 'free' then you could packet capture a session between the two to see exactly what the command was. I don't know anyone with that rev of GH4 but if you do then the version of the ImageApp you'd need is floating around on some dropbox links if you google hard enough for it. But my suspicion is that because the GX80 etc post date Panasonic closing that loophole in both the camera and the ImageApp then it wouldn't work anyway. The long shot would be it possibly working on an LX100 but considering what that does when it receives the Cinelike D command its far from certain it would work properly.

[kidzrevil]

Just to stay on topic I would REALLY love VLOG for the G80/G85.

if we can't make this happen i'd just settle for a nice lil bitrate hack

[Orangenz]

13 hours ago, kidzrevil said:

Im gonna start doing that more often, posting originals with waveform and such so we can all collectively come up with a better understanding of the hardware. I usually just share links cause its super convenient as Im usually posting on here when im running around the city

Here is the link. Panasonic is far from clear but I assume "half video levels" is half a stop ire below reccomended exposure that would put us at 1/3-2/3 underexposre 

https://eww.pass.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/support/content/guide/EN/AG-AC90handbook_en.pdf

 

Thank you for the 2012 camera manual link.
As you can see in the manual, cine-d is the most linear of the gamma types.  
A problem in this thread is Mercer using "highlight clipping" interchangeably with "highlight rolloff." Which is unfortunate.
All this is clarified below.

Summarised here for your reading pleasure. This is from a 2016 white paper discussing exposure. 

Panasonic White Paper on Exposure Levels

Most video camera gamma curves are designed to replicate what-you-see-is-what-you-get when the footage is displayed on a video monitor. That’s convenient, but there are sacrifices made in the amount of dynamic range that can be preserved when using a conventional video gamma. Furthermore, video gammas are more linear in design [than vlog], and that means that more “bits” are allocated to storing the brightest stops, than are allocated to store the darkest stops. This can result in mushy shadows, and noise and banding in the shadows if you try to brighten them in post.

Exposure is normally 70 IRE for skin tones, and 100 IRE for highlights.

When shooting in REC 709 gamma, I’m used to setting my zebras at 70 and 100; I would expose for there to be just a little bit of 70-IRE zebras on the brightest highlights on Caucasian skin tones; then I would swap over to Zebra 2 (set to 100 IRE) to check for highlight clipping.

Exposure for VlogL is 55 IRE for Caucasian skin tones, and 80 IRE for highlights.

An individual channel might clip earlier than the zebras indicate so in some situations one might set the vlog-L highlight clipping to a little lower (75 IRE) to minimize possible individual chroma channel clipping.

Exposure is a game between three things:

·        Noise in the shadows – all digital sensors show the most noise in the darkest areas. Under exposing and lifting in post will maximise noise. Raising ISO will also increase noise levels.

·        Retaining the highlights – decide between main subject vs highlights. Deciding which highlights might have to be sacrificed for exposing the main subject is difficult. In an ideal world no highlights will need to go past 100 – welcome to studio set lighting.

·        Maintaining consistent midtones between shots

For a good read on basic ETTR principles and the balance http://www.leeminglutone.com/#howtoettr 

Hope you find this helpful. 

[mercer]

2 hours ago, Orangenz said:

Thank you for the 2012 camera manual link.
As you can see in the manual, cine-d is the most linear of the gamma types.  
A problem in this thread is Mercer using "highlight clipping" interchangeably with "highlight rolloff." Which is unfortunate.
All this is clarified below.

Summarised here for your reading pleasure. This is from a 2016 white paper discussing exposure. 

Panasonic White Paper on Exposure Levels

Most video camera gamma curves are designed to replicate what-you-see-is-what-you-get when the footage is displayed on a video monitor. That’s convenient, but there are sacrifices made in the amount of dynamic range that can be preserved when using a conventional video gamma. Furthermore, video gammas are more linear in design [than vlog], and that means that more “bits” are allocated to storing the brightest stops, than are allocated to store the darkest stops. This can result in mushy shadows, and noise and banding in the shadows if you try to brighten them in post.

Exposure is normally 70 IRE for skin tones, and 100 IRE for highlights.

When shooting in REC 709 gamma, I’m used to setting my zebras at 70 and 100; I would expose for there to be just a little bit of 70-IRE zebras on the brightest highlights on Caucasian skin tones; then I would swap over to Zebra 2 (set to 100 IRE) to check for highlight clipping.

Exposure for VlogL is 55 IRE for Caucasian skin tones, and 80 IRE for highlights.

An individual channel might clip earlier than the zebras indicate so in some situations one might set the vlog-L highlight clipping to a little lower (75 IRE) to minimize possible individual chroma channel clipping.

Exposure is a game between three things:

·        Noise in the shadows – all digital sensors show the most noise in the darkest areas. Under exposing and lifting in post will maximise noise. Raising ISO will also increase noise levels.

·        Retaining the highlights – decide between main subject vs highlights. Deciding which highlights might have to be sacrificed for exposing the main subject is difficult. In an ideal world no highlights will need to go past 100 – welcome to studio set lighting.

·        Maintaining consistent midtones between shots

For a good read on basic ETTR principles and the balance http://www.leeminglutone.com/#howtoettr 

Hope you find this helpful. 

Ahem, where exactly did I use highlight clipping and highlight rolloff interchangeably? I just went back and reread my comments and cannot find it. 

And wait, I'm confused... In Panasonic's White Paper from 2016, they reference the Leeming LUT and invite people to learn how to ETTR from it?

[jonpais]

15 hours ago, mercer said:

And you're using Leeming LUT and his settings... right?

But how else would you lower Gamma in camera without lowering exposure? It either has to be lowered with a lighting setup designed so the midtones hit a specific spot on the curve, or through your in camera exposure. Now unless you have an extensive lighting kit, you have to do that in camera. I guess you can argue that you may be losing some highlight information in that circumstance.

In the forums, someone can say they shoot exclusively vivid profile, recommend raising master pedestal +10 with all settings at -5, swear by idynamic or e-stabilization, or espouse increasing shutter speeds to 1/250 of a second rather than using an ND filter and no one will bat an eye. People can write any nonsense they like, such as even with sharpening set at -5, there is ugly sharpening being applied in firmware, but I've been shooting with sharpening at -3 with Leica and Olympus glass, and not a single person would say my images look oversharpened. They can claim there is clipping going on in a clip I shared where there is no such clipping to be found anywhere except in areas of no importance whatsoever. They can assert that shooting a 1/2 stop over results in bizarre skin tones, when in fact the the only limitation to getting good skin tones is accurate white balance in camera and good color correction skills. But suggest increasing exposure by 1/3 stop, and all hell breaks loose. Because often, that's all we're talking about here. At times it will be a bit more, but in many circumstances, for example, when shooting a high contrast scene, ETTR involves at most 1/3 stop increase in exposure, flat scenes, a bit more, maybe 1/2 stop or so. It must be understood too that we don't just arbitrarily narrow the aperture until all zebras disappear - if there are zebras in inessential areas of the image - specular highlights, reflections, what have you - it's okay to let them blow out. It's also necessary to understand that ETTR does not apply when shooting at high ISOs - it's most effective at base ISO, which in the case of the GX80, is probably ISO 200 or ISO 400. There is another misperception that if you want to shoot a dark scene, you should shoot it dark - in other words, with the histogram bunched up to the left. But that will only lead to noise in the shadows, little dynamic range and less color information. Give more exposure, then pull the mids and shadows down in post and the image will be cleaner. I don't need a white paper to know all this, it's just common sense. Pulling up shadows is a recipe for introducing noise into the image. I have said repeatedly not to take my word as authority, that everyone should do their own testing. But beware of people online giving advice who have no website, no work to show, no YT or Vimeo channel or who haven't even used the camera or picture profile we're talking about here.