The Canon C200 is here and its a bomb!

[Fritz Pierre]

10 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

Believe me, I know. I'm working on a few Netflix series now and YouTube and Hulu series, too. Netflix is pickiest about cameras. YouTube will accept 4k Alexa footage and most of their content is shot on 4k-upscaling Alexas. Netflix won't accept Alexa footage so I'm mostly seeing Red and F55 and I think there's some C300 Mk II mixed in, too. My preference would be Alexa but it's their choice to make.

But yes, they'll buy rights to anything even if it's in 1080p, even if they later release it as an original. 

I'm only saying that at the low end of the industry where I work, only Netflix really cares about 4k, and even they will accept 1080p content for their originals (if used sparingly or if a show or movie is produced before they acquire it).

I don't think that changes too much until you're working on tentpoles. The features I work on are all 2k DCP deliverables even if they're shot on 4k.

I guess my only point is, if you need 4k, you will know, because your clients will tell you before you roll a frame of footage. So speculating about it is a bit foolish. Whoever needs it knows they need it from the get go.

Agreed...and I was actually just expanding on your point of how rare 4K requirements actually are, but I would not buy a non 4K camera today unless it was a used Alexa classic, a F35 or F900R...the 3 Cine cameras that are positively droolworthy...still I'm reading more and more about clients asking about 4K delivery and this is bound to increase...

 

[HockeyFan12]

If I were still shooting, I would probably buy what my clients wanted me to buy. If I started getting asked for 4k, I'd buy a 4k camera. Otherwise, I wouldn't. And I'd shoot in whatever the lowest spec'd format they'd accept is.

As a hobbyist, I would just buy whatever I wanted and not care about what other people are doing with their money one way or the other. 

To this extent, I think debates about 4k are a bit absurd because our needs all vary so much. We should just be doing our own research at this point and not question what others are doing unless they specifically ask for advice.

I think the low end and high end will adopt 4k before anyone else. What separates Netflix and Youtube (and Amazon) is that their distribution is all digital, whereas many networks are still getting content delivered in HDCAMSR tape. There's so much 1080p infrastructure in television. And the cost of shifting vfx (in particular, but editorial in general) to 4k is massive, potentially millions of dollars for tentpoles. But they can afford that. 

So I see Netflix, the ultra low end (where you don't need to buy and maintain a large gigabit ethernet network for post because it's all done locally), and the very high end leading the way for 4k. I think bread and butter stuff, shooting for tv and ads and whatnot, that's gonna be 1080p for the near future. 

What is funny is seeing content shot at 4k or 6k that goes through the whole post process like that only to deliver in 2k. Your resolution is only as high as the weakest link, usually a vfx house that doesn't have the horsepower to render CG at 4k.

 

[jhnkng]

3 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

Because it needs more processing power. Raw is pure ~9 million data points. But a demosized image is 9 million x 3 data points plus gamma curve pluse color matrix plus white balance plus sharpening plus temporal noise reduction plus bit depth reduction plus color subsampling plus encoding. 

I don't think it's processing power -- the C300 Mk2 has Dual DIGIC 5s and can do 12bit internal recording, the C200 will have Dual DIGIC 6s (which I assume will be more powerful). It might be because there'd be no reason to by a C300, it might be because they're not 100% sure SD cards can't handle it (dunno why they wouldn't put in a UHS-II card slot in there), or maybe they'll release a firmware upgrade that allows for 10bit internal recording after they release the C300 Mk3 with RAW.

It currently supports 10bit 422 1080p through SDI, so I suspect we're going to see a lot of Ninja Stars appearing on production rigs. 

[noone]

A quick Google search-

https://backlothelp.netflix.com/hc/en-us/articles/217237077-Production-and-Post-Production-Requirements-v2-1

"Camera Requirements

4K Resolution:
• Camera must have a true 4K sensor (equal to or greater than 4096 photosites wide).


Recording Format:
• Minimum of 16-bit Linear or 10-bit Log processing

• Bitrate of at least 240 Mbps (at 23.98/24 fps) recording

• Recording format must be set to either:


RAW (uncompressed or lightly compressed sensor data)


Log color space (i.e. S-Log3, V-Log, CanonLog3, REDLogFilm, BMDLog, LogC)

• No looks or color corrections should be baked into the original camera files.

• Files must maintain all metadata (i.e. Tape Name, Timecode, Frame Rate, ISO, WB, etc.)


Aspect Ratio / Framing:
• Aspect ratios greater than 2.00:1 must be evaluated and discussed with Netflix for approval.

• Framing chart must be shot before principal photography begins, and processed through the dailies pipeline which will be shared with editorial, post-production, and VFX.


Secondary Cameras:
• Any cameras other than the primary camera (crash, POV, drone, underwater, etc.) must be approved by Netflix.

• Test footage should be shot and provided to dailies and post-production to ensure compatibility with primary camera.
 

Approved Cameras:"
 

Then follows a very short list of cameras all of which cost quite a lot.

 

https://backlothelp.netflix.com/hc/en-us/articles/229150567-What-kind-of-secondary-cameras-can-I-use-

 

"Question:

What kind of secondary cameras can I use?

Answer:

Since we understand the wide range of shooting scenarios (drones, crash cam, tight spaces, etc.) cannot always accommodate a large camera, we do allow smaller 4K cameras to be used that are not on our approved camera list. Our rule of thumb is if these shots will make up 10% or less of the final cut, a non-approved camera can be used. Please contact us for our recommendations in these cases."

[HockeyFan12]

8 minutes ago, noone said:

A quick Google search-

https://backlothelp.netflix.com/hc/en-us/articles/217237077-Production-and-Post-Production-Requirements-v2-1

"Camera Requirements

4K Resolution:
• Camera must have a true 4K sensor (equal to or greater than 4096 photosites wide).


Recording Format:
• Minimum of 16-bit Linear or 10-bit Log processing

• Bitrate of at least 240 Mbps (at 23.98/24 fps) recording

• Recording format must be set to either:


RAW (uncompressed or lightly compressed sensor data)


Log color space (i.e. S-Log3, V-Log, CanonLog3, REDLogFilm, BMDLog, LogC)

• No looks or color corrections should be baked into the original camera files.

• Files must maintain all metadata (i.e. Tape Name, Timecode, Frame Rate, ISO, WB, etc.)


Aspect Ratio / Framing:
• Aspect ratios greater than 2.00:1 must be evaluated and discussed with Netflix for approval.

• Framing chart must be shot before principal photography begins, and processed through the dailies pipeline which will be shared with editorial, post-production, and VFX.


Secondary Cameras:
• Any cameras other than the primary camera (crash, POV, drone, underwater, etc.) must be approved by Netflix.

• Test footage should be shot and provided to dailies and post-production to ensure compatibility with primary camera.
 

Approved Cameras:"
 

Then follows a very short list of cameras all of which cost quite a lot.

 

https://backlothelp.netflix.com/hc/en-us/articles/229150567-What-kind-of-secondary-cameras-can-I-use-

 

"Question:

What kind of secondary cameras can I use?

Answer:

Since we understand the wide range of shooting scenarios (drones, crash cam, tight spaces, etc.) cannot always accommodate a large camera, we do allow smaller 4K cameras to be used that are not on our approved camera list. Our rule of thumb is if these shots will make up 10% or less of the final cut, a non-approved camera can be used. Please contact us for our recommendations in these cases."

Yep. But by the point you're having this discussion, you've signed a contract with Netflix. And the budgets they provide for their originals are high enough that you can take your pick. 

Even for content financed elsewhere and later acquired by Netflix (even as a Netflix original), 1080p deliverables are fine.

[AaronChicago]

41 minutes ago, jhnkng said:

I don't think it's processing power -- the C300 Mk2 has Dual DIGIC 5s and can do 12bit internal recording, the C200 will have Dual DIGIC 6s (which I assume will be more powerful). It might be because there'd be no reason to by a C300, it might be because they're not 100% sure SD cards can't handle it (dunno why they wouldn't put in a UHS-II card slot in there), or maybe they'll release a firmware upgrade that allows for 10bit internal recording after they release the C300 Mk3 with RAW.

It currently supports 10bit 422 1080p through SDI, so I suspect we're going to see a lot of Ninja Stars appearing on production rigs. 

Yeah I"m pretty sure it's intentional crippling. The processor is plenty powerful enough. There's a CFast 2.0 slot as well.

[jhnkng]

2 hours ago, AaronChicago said:

Yeah I"m pretty sure it's intentional crippling. The processor is plenty powerful enough. There's a CFast 2.0 slot as well.

Exactly. Kinda wish they'd gone with dual XQD slots with a single SD for proxies rather than a CFast slot. And I hope there will be a 10bit internal recording firmware update, even if it's a paid update.

 

[squig]

iPad/iPhone monitoring and focus control is dope. https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/explore/cinema-eos-c200-cameras/versatility

[HockeyFan12]

44 minutes ago, squig said:

iPad/iPhone monitoring and focus control is dope. https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/explore/cinema-eos-c200-cameras/versatility

Want. This might be my next camera but I'm spending way too much money on food and beer. :/

[kaylee]

1 hour ago, HockeyFan12 said:

on food and beer

tagged/me ????

[HockeyFan12]

36 minutes ago, kaylee said:

tagged/me ????

Mumford Brewery (Little Tokyo/Skid Row) and Indie Brewery (Boyle Heights) are doing New England style IPAs nearly as well as New England itself is. I'd know; I've talked at length with the brewmaster in the Berkshires who invented the style and tried his wares and those from Maine Brewing and Trillium and Night Shift. They're all excellent btw and probably still better back east, but there's no need to travel east anymore to get in on the action. :/ LA has basically caught up.

And the new Mikkeler pub in DTLA and the Modern Times pub opening in Atwater Village.... how can you resist... Beachwood is pretty good, too. And Russian River still makes the best sours.

And I would eat this Thai Food, Armenian Food, Mexican Food, Tonkotsu Ramen, Poke, even the Chinese Food when I make to to Alhambra... even in 720p. 

Even in 480p...

Oh, and In N Out.

I'd eat you in 240p. 

So yeah, no new cameras on the horizon. 

But hopefully a gym membership. Wasn't Socal supposed to make me thin?

[mercer]

 

8 hours ago, squig said:

iPad/iPhone monitoring and focus control is dope. https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/explore/cinema-eos-c200-cameras/versatility

Yeah, that is cool as shit. Hopefully it works as well as advertised.

Idk, I think if I were in the market for a cine cam, the B model is the way to go, for me. I also think it would be smart of Canon to drop the price of the B model to $5499, then that way they could offer different FW paths depending upon which model you buy...

With the full kit model, they could offer a 10bit update in the future but since the B model is priced significantly cheaper, then the FW path would be significantly smaller.

This way people who buy the kit are getting more bang for their buck, yet people like me can be happy with 10/12bit Raw with dual proxy recording.

I would never use the top handle anyway and I could use my iPad mini when on set or my iPhone when on location. The only accessory I would possibly buy later is the grip and even that isn't a necessity since I would usually have it on sticks.

Or even better... announce and release a 5DRaw for $4999!!!

Canon take my money. My kids aren't that smart anyway, so they don't really NEED that college fund. Lol. Man... I wish I had kids so I could borrow from their college fund... goddamn you safe sex!!!

[Chris Oh]

24 minutes ago, mercer said:

 My kids aren't that smart anyway, so they don't really NEED that college fund. Lol. Man... I wish I had kids so I could borrow from their college fund... goddamn you safe sex!!!

HA. You have some imagination. Also tells me you can't relate to parents. Back to writing/filming you! Share the footage of the screenshots you've been posting.

[mercer]

6 minutes ago, Chris Oh said:

HA. You have some imagination. Also tells me you can't relate to parents. Back to writing/filming you! Share the footage of the screenshots you've been posting.

Yeah, I need to sign off. So far this week I want a C200B and an E-M1 Mark ii. The silly part of it all is that I am finally content with the camera I have... but it doesn't have rock solid 5-axis IBIS. lol. Just kidding, I would never sell my 5D3 for the E-M1mk2. But can I afford both?

Seriously though. I HOPE to have the short completed by August.

[kaylee]

@HockeyFan12 those are some great tips on whats good in the hood right now thank u!! i used to live in DTLA but i havent been around for years and im super out of touch... annnd super over the beers in san diego... im so jaded lol. so spoiled in beer paradise ?

[andrgl]

12bit RAW is only 30p. :< Sooooooo weak! Damn, basically a perfect camera expect for the gimped output.

RED and Blackmagic still own the throne for true internal 60+fps RAW.

Hopefully the C200 lights a fire under the asses of Sony and Panasonic, would be amazing to get 12/14 bit RAW internal recording on their consumer grade shit.

[cpc]

7 hours ago, andrgl said:

12bit RAW is only 30p. :< Sooooooo weak! Damn, basically a perfect camera expect for the gimped output.

RED and Blackmagic still own the throne for true internal 60+fps RAW.

Hopefully the C200 lights a fire under the asses of Sony and Panasonic, would be amazing to get 12/14 bit RAW internal recording on their consumer grade shit.

Don't get fooled by nominal bitdepth. A 10-bit raw frame from the Varicam LT or the Canon C500 contains much more color info than a 12-bit 4:1 Blackmagic raw frame.

[ssrdd]

I think C200 should cost less or sell for 6000usd with kit lens. if not panasonic is better option. 

[TwoScoops]

I'm watching 'The Keepers' on Netflix right now. It looks like it was shot on a 1982 Casio watch.

[jonpais]

48 minutes ago, ssrdd said:

I think C200 should cost less or sell for 6000usd with kit lens. if not panasonic is better option. 

Any reason why it should cost less? Do you believe Canon isn't offering enough features for the money, or is it your budget constraints? Because we all dream stuff cost less. I'd like Sigma to charge $2,000 for their cine lenses, but that ain't happening anytime soon. I'm not taking sides, I've got no intention of picking up a cinema camera anytime soon, but it seems to me that the C200B is a great deal at only $5,999.00 USD.