The wraps are off! Panasonic EVA1 compact cinema camera announced with Super 35 5.7K sensor and Dual Native ISO

[Jimmy]

Looks really nice too... What a time to be a film maker!

Sony are gonna drop a high end, full frame cine cam too, soon.

I'm surprised how much Andrew is downplaying the raw on c200 though... Goes against everything he normally raves about.

[visionrouge]

2 minutes ago, rndmtsk said:

How do people know it's the Varicam 10bit AVC Ultra codec and not the 400mbps H.264 coming to the GH5? Has this been confirmed anywhere?

Actually, there are plenty of things we don't know which is even funny or scary.

Dynamic range? ISO? Exact Codec?
Why it's so hard for  Panasonic to get these details? How can they design a camera without knowing these element. ? Are thay trying something and look after how does it look like?

I'm doing corporate work in factories all over Asia and just bought a Sony FS7 with the Nice 18-110 Sony lens. Should I regret after the C200 or Panasonic announcement? Not at all.

A new camera system will take months before it will actually work and get accepted by broadcaster or my clients. As Panasonic is not even able to provide such basic information, I have a solid 6 months, at least, to think again about competition there.

It's a nice "concept"; let see what it can do in few months. we are way too far from reality here.

 

 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

20 minutes ago, rndmtsk said:

How do people know it's the Varicam 10bit AVC Ultra codec and not the 400mbps H.264 coming to the GH5? Has this been confirmed anywhere?

I suppose not, but they are calling it AVC-Ultra, which is not the same codec used in the GH5. I'd highly doubt it's the GH5 codec for two reasons:

1. The codec in the GH5 was brand new, not the same one shared with the larger varicams. 

2. The Lumix team and Varicam teams HATE each other, and rarely share anything between the two lines.

[jonpais]

17 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Looks really nice too... What a time to be a film maker!

Sony are gonna drop a high end, full frame cine cam too, soon.

I'm surprised how much Andrew is downplaying the raw on c200 though... Goes against everything he normally raves about.

Where did you see info about Sony releasing a full frame cinema camera?

[rndmtsk]

10 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

I suppose not, but they are calling it AVC-Ultra, which is not the same codec used in the GH5. I'd highly doubt it's the GH5 codec for two reasons:

1. The codec in the GH5 was brand new, not the same one shared with the larger varicams. 

2. The Lumix team and Varicam teams HATE each other, and rarely share anything with each other.

Fair enough. Hadn't seen it called AVC-Ultra anywhere.

Didn't know that about varicam and lumix teams. The reason I was concerned is that they put the same codec as the GH4 in the DVX200, and it's closer to that price bracket than any Varicam camera. It's also interesting that they're announcing this camera around the time of that codecs release.

1 minute ago, jonpais said:

Where did you see info about Sony releasing a full frame cinema camera?

https://***URL not allowed***/sony-developing-full-frame-professional-cinealta-camera/

[Jimmy]

Yea... Showed up on my facebook...  Cine Alta posted.

Seems like a pre-announcement... Which are always a bit daft

 

[Kisaha]

4 hours ago, mercer said:

@Kisaha US prices are $5999 for the C200B and $7500 for the full kit... so I guess 5300 and 6600 euro respectively... give or take.

I would love a C200b. A small 4K monitor and my Nikkor lenses... yeah I could dig that. I may rent one next summer... I'm sure they will be reserved until then. 

I guess I'll just deal with ML Raw until then. 

https://cvp.com/index.php?t=product/canon_eos_c200_ef_camcorder&utm_source=mailshot&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email

It is 8800euros, and CVP is usually the cheapest in Europe (I do my business in EU, so mostly German/Belgium/Netherlands as UK decided to exclude themselves from Europe, so I can't risk have any issues later on with my business paper work) and for such an expensive and pro machine maybe buying locally (will it be even more expensive) is a better idea. Euro prices aren't coming from US$ prices, we have a completely different pricing system here. We have the most taxes to pay.

1300euros MORE, than the US price, is 1500MORE US$, we buy the same camera that you buy for 7500, we buy for 9000$. That applies to everything, when people talk with B&H prices I weep..

@visionrouge All the reviews I have read the Sony lens is vastly inferior to the 18-80CN-E, is not a true cine lens (Cn-E ain't either, but at least it is close!) and has lesser servo mechanisms and features. In image quality and "cine" characteristics (focal breathing, par focalness) it is worst than the Fuji 18-55 and 50-135 ones, and Canon C200 will be out in a couple of months. FS7 and the lens is great for all around work, you are not going to miss much, but if I was going Sony, the Fuji lenses are excellent value for performance.

[BTM_Pix]

The price has surprised me to be honest. CVP are saying it will be 'under 8000 Euros', which will be an ex-VAT price.

Thought it was more likely be a bit above the BM Ursa Mini Pro level and certainly not to be more than the new Canon.

Its not that its particularly wildly expensive for what it does but I just thought they'd be more aggressive.

Sony and Canon are the safe bets for most people in that price bracket so I'd have thought if you were going to take them on it would make sense to at the very least be a few quid cheaper rather than more expensive. Seems to me that someone looking to take a chance and go another way from Sony and Canon would be more tempted by the Ursa Mini Pro now?

The other surprise is the mount.

I just don't get the mount choice when you are an actual manufacturer of a wide range of MFT lenses and the users that you want to bring up to this new level of camera all own those lenses and all of the adapters to convert anything to that mount, why would you NOT put that mount on it?

JVC have already shown what a great combination the Super35 sensor with the MFT mount is. (By the by, JVC actually got their firmware update out a day late this week but I haven't had chance to put it on yet.)

I just do not understand it having an EF mount as a real benefit to anyone other than, erm, Canon. Who will now win whichever of these two cameras that you choose.

[jax_rox]

34 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Sony and Canon are the safe bets for most people in that price bracket so I'd have thought if you were going to take them on it would make sense to at the very least be a few quid cheaper rather than more expensive. Seems to me that someone looking to take a chance and go another way from Sony and Canon would be more tempted by the Ursa Mini Pro now?

It's cheaper than both the FS7 and the C300, and it overall should give a better image (and better specs, in general) than an FS5. URSA Mini Pro is still a bit of a gamble IMO. I'm still not convinced by the BMD image.

40 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

The other surprise is the mount.

I just don't get the mount choice when you are an actual manufacturer of a wide range of MFT lenses and the users that you want to bring up to this new level of camera all own those lenses and all of the adapters to convert anything to that mount, why would you NOT put that mount on it?

[...]

I just do not understand it having an EF mount as a real benefit to anyone other than, erm, Canon. Who will now win whichever of these two cameras that you choose.

I attended the launch of the VaricamLT and it was expressed that EF mount is what most professional users want, if not PL. They did a lot of market research, and the VaricamLT has an interchangeable EF/PL mount.

The GH5 and Varicam lines are two quite different lines. To really be competitive, they were going to have to make a S35 camera, and MFT is simply not that. 

 

I mostly question the timeline: it seems they really wanted to get the jump on Canon. Why else would you release incomplete details of a camera (you don't even know yet what the Dual ISOs are...???) and without footage? Sony, Canon, RED, all release some sort of official footage when releasing a new camera... and I can't imagine any of them releasing a camera without an idea of what the native ISOs are.....

I wonder if maybe they were expecting the product to be at completion by Cinegear, but some unforeseen circumstance has kept that from being the case, but they'd committed to releasing details of a new camera... I just don't quite get it. The camera looks great, but how will we know until we see some footage..?

[Andrew Reid]

The mount is perfect for the customers they are targeting the EVA1 at. If they'd gone with the Micro Four Thirds size sensor and mount to match, the amount of extra M43 glass they would have sold would probably not compensate for the losses Panasonic would experience through damaging their presence in the C100/C300/rental market, which is all about Super 35 and EF lenses.

A good, pragmatic decision and I am sure the GH5 will sell a lot of extra Panasonic lenses to filmmakers any way!

I am not sure Panasonic quite has the ergonomics right yet... The form factor is nice and small now but the physical controls are 10 years past their sell-by date and need to be rethought, as does autofocus if they are to catch Canon.

[BTM_Pix]

38 minutes ago, jax_rox said:

It's cheaper than both the FS7 and the C300, and it overall should give a better image (and better specs, in general) than an FS5. URSA Mini Pro is still a bit of a gamble IMO. I'm still not convinced by the BMD image.

I attended the launch of the VaricamLT and it was expressed that EF mount is what most professional users want, if not PL. They did a lot of market research, and the VaricamLT has an interchangeable EF/PL mount.

The GH5 and Varicam lines are two quite different lines. To really be competitive, they were going to have to make a S35 camera, and MFT is simply not that. 

 

 

I was thinking more FS5 and C200 (though if it is at the 8000€ mark then the FS7 even with external interface and recorder isn't that far off) but completely take the point.

Ditto the mount as well actually.

I'm viewing this from underneath rather than above I suppose.

Cheap varicam rather than what was expected it might be which was an upscale lensless version of the DVX200. 

I still think the LS300 has shown that the Super35 sensor with MFT is a viable proposition but as its been a commercial failure then no one would be using it as a blueprint for success!

18 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The mount is perfect for the customers they are targeting the EVA1 at. If they'd gone with the Micro Four Thirds size sensor and mount to match, the amount of extra M43 glass they would have sold would probably not compensate for the losses Panasonic would experience through damaging their presence in the C100/C300/rental market, which is all about Super 35 and EF lenses.

A good, pragmatic decision and I am sure the GH5 will sell a lot of extra Panasonic lenses to filmmakers any way!

I am not sure Panasonic quite has the ergonomics right yet... The form factor is nice and small now but the physical controls are 10 years past their sell-by date and need to be rethought, as does autofocus if they are to catch Canon.

They could have had the Super35 sensor and the MFT mount though.  But as my reply above its probably not what the market they want it to be in wants is to have so I've completely misunderstood where they were going with it.

I remember how gutted I was when BM released the MFT version of the BMCC and how much of a more flexible solution it offered versus my EF mount version so I'm still bitter !!

[zerocool22]

1 hour ago, jax_rox said:

URSA Mini Pro is still a bit of a gamble IMO. I'm still not convinced by the BMD image.

 

Well look at this for example   BM 4.6k sensor.  

 

[jax_rox]

14 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I was thinking more FS5 and C200 (though if it is at the 8000€ mark then the FS7 even with external interface and recorder isn't that far off) but completely take the point.

Based on specs alone, it's a fair step-up from at least the FS5 - I haven't delved into the C200 enough (I don't particularly like the Canon C-series) to make a comment on that one... The FS5 maxes out at 4:2:0 8-bit internally @ 4k, unless you shell out extra for the raw upgrade. FS7ii's a good $2kish more and offers similar features. Even FS7i's still north of the $8k mark. And the C300 is well north of it. Despite it's size being more like an FS5, it seems to me to be more of an FS7 competitor based on specs alone...

Again, without seeing the image, it's difficult to make much of a judgement. If it is indeed a pared-down VaricamLT, it's a bargain for sure. That said, I really quite like the images out of the F5, and don't really like the images out of the FS7 despite them sharing the same sensor.... So - without seeing footage, it's hard to say. 

25 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

They could have had the Super35 sensor and the MFT mount though.  But as my reply above its probably not what the market they want it to be in wants is to have so I've completely misunderstood where they were going with it.

I don't know a lot about MFT, but aren't almost all (if not all) of the lenses designed for an MFT sensor, and therefore wouldn't cover the image circle? An interchangeable lens mount (like they have for the LT, just EF/MFT instead) would have been an interesting solution, with a sensor crop when the MFT mount is on... I imagine it would potentially be too expensive an option though... 

Be interesting to see if this has AF with EF glass, as last I heard the LT certainly doesn't...

[Kisaha]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

The mount is perfect for the customers they are targeting the EVA1 at. If they'd gone with the Micro Four Thirds size sensor and mount to match, the amount of extra M43 glass they would have sold would probably not compensate for the losses Panasonic would experience through damaging their presence in the C100/C300/rental market, which is all about Super 35 and EF lenses.

A good, pragmatic decision and I am sure the GH5 will sell a lot of extra Panasonic lenses to filmmakers any way!

I am not sure Panasonic quite has the ergonomics right yet... The form factor is nice and small now but the physical controls are 10 years past their sell-by date and need to be rethought, as does autofocus if they are to catch Canon.

Don't all act like the solution isn't already viable. JVC has a perfectly good little camcorder which is NOT a cine camera (even though it is great for shorts and in the fringe of higher spec-ed cameras) and it is NOT advertised by JVC as such, but it costs 2650$ in US, and it is 3000euros in my country, where everything is 20% more expensive than usual EU prices. What they did? Variable sensor, native m43 mount and S35 and even smaller formats. If JVC can do it for 3000euros, I do not see why Panasonic can't for 7500-8000 and still have better specs. The JVC does 4K/60p with an Atomos too. It is not science fiction, it is happening, NOW! https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1333370-REG/jvc_jvc_atmni4k60pcb_gy_ls300_4kcam_ninja.html 3440$ !!! I wouldn't never buy a m43 "cine" camera, but I would definitely buy a variable sensor one, and a GH5 and some G85 as B and C, and photography and every day cameras, and I would have a huge advantage, because right now there isn't any mirrorless Canon cameras for the C100mkII or C200 worthy buying. A lot of friends and colleagues are asking me "what Canon as a B camera?", and I can't light heartedly propose them any. So they go with FS5s and A7sIIs and a6xxx cameras, but they are not very happy with those! C series have nailed AF and ergonomics, they are huge selling points for me.

[BTM_Pix]

58 minutes ago, jax_rox said:

I don't know a lot about MFT, but aren't almost all (if not all) of the lenses designed for an MFT sensor, and therefore wouldn't cover the image circle? An interchangeable lens mount (like they have for the LT, just EF/MFT instead) would have been an interesting solution, with a sensor crop when the MFT mount is on... I imagine it would potentially be too expensive an option though... 

Be interesting to see if this has AF with EF glass, as last I heard the LT certainly doesn't...

Some not all cover it.

JVC use their variable scale mapping system to cover it. Their default is 85% but in practical terms most people have it set to 90+.

The advantage is the small form factor of the lenses and weight to give you the option of something more compact. Plus the 1080p and 2k high frame rate stuff isn't an issue for them at all.

The AF is another area as there are now plenty of EF to MFT adapters that support AF and IS both speedboosted and not as well as things like the Apurture EF-MFT which also adds electronic follow focus. So there are plenty of options there but yeah it all comes down to who they're targeting and how much those people are inclined to rely on 3rd party adapters etc. 

Although having said that there are roughly half a dozen FS5/7s in my general vicinity as I'm stood writing this who are shooting with L series Canon glass so the answer to that would be they don't mind !

The MFT  mount is associated with consumer stuff though so I imagine there would be a different resistance to that. 

[Timoteo]

Between a Rock and Hard Place. Should I go for the GH5 or wait till this happens? Decision to make. Panasonic is 'killing' it. If the EVA1 stays under $7,500, I'm sold.

[Fritz Pierre]

14 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

It would have been nice if Panasonic had applied their 5 axis IBIS tech to the new, larger sensor but I think it's probably difficult to have a sensor bobbling around behind an ND filter wheel and remain cost effective. Also with the sensor moving around they could have well run out of image circle with EF-S and Super 35mm lenses, some are quite marginal at the edges of the sensor.

Not much point having one on the back like the FS5 does, when you can put a proper one on the top handle offset to the side so it's in the right position. It's really uncomfortable having it on the back and impossible even to use it when camera's on the shoulder.

Agreed...and better to keep the price lower, and allow those who want a EVF to purchase the one they want, and rig appropriately for shoulder work....plus at Varicam level, focus is even more critical and unforgiving, so a professional quality EVF would be the order of the day with the EVA...Panasonic may even release a budget version of the Varicam LT EVF (which is one of the best in the business albeit at $5000+)

14 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

I'm disappointed they didn't leave it Super 35 and just stick to the MFT mount. I'm guess others that have invested in panasonic glass may be having the same reaction right now...

Agreed...this alone will keep me away from this camera...unless they develope it as an optional mount instead of the EF...like BMD did on their first Cine cam

[IronFilm]

10 hours ago, Kisaha said:

@IronFilm I wouldn't call any Canon codec as "shitty shit shit".

If it was in a DSLR we're talking about then perhaps you could make excuses for Canon and try to explain it away.

 

But for the price of the C200 that is indeed a very low end codec inside it.

[Fritz Pierre]

14 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Sucks so bad the Panasonic EVA1 lacks a Locking Micro Four Thirds Mount (like a baby made from the union of the JVC LS300 & Sony FS7 mk2 mounts).

Panasonic has blown a massive opportunity to provide an upgrade path for their GH users as they progress through their career, & was an opportunity to grow Panasonic GH5 sales at the same time.

However credit can be given to Panasonic for blasting out of the water the C200 which Canon just announced, but that fact should surprise exactly no one.

+100 here ....you said exactly how I feel perfectly...this camera might have gotten my money...instead if I do a project I have in developement, I will go to the Varicam LT instead....I own far too many lenses to mess around on an EF mount on this camera...perhaps Panasonic will pay attention and add an optional M4/3 mount...and I'd like to see a professional locking mount instead of a DSLR push button release!

[j.f.r.]

13 hours ago, deezid said:

I'll take two of these if it has the real Varicam (LT) look. That would be amazing.
If footage looks like shot with a GH5 (processed, homevideo like) I buy the C200 instead.

100% Fact you have no idea what you are talking about.......

 

C200 looks like video (especially when that is it;s intended market), GH5 I would say in-between and more cinematic now using anamorphic mode with lenses. Panasonic Varicam LT resembles film and if this new camera will provide the same image it will be amazing and one of the best cameras at this price range in the market. I easily put Varicam footage right next to Amira and in many situations much better when shooting at higher iso's