The wraps are off! Panasonic EVA1 compact cinema camera announced with Super 35 5.7K sensor and Dual Native ISO

[mercer]

The problem with the EVA is its price. They basically announced a concept camera that will be a +$10,000 camera once it's fully kitted out with an evf, media, paid external raw upgrade and external recorder. It will probably be closer to $12,000. Who would pay for that when you can buy a base Varicam LT for only a few thousand more?

[IronFilm]

19 minutes ago, Fritz Pierre said:

Agreed...this alone will keep me away from this camera...unless they develope it as an optional mount instead of the EF...like BMD did on their first Cine cam

 

Hopefully Panasonic will see people's reactions online and then tweak development to release a locking Micro Four Thirds Mount version!

[mercer]

14 minutes ago, j.f.r. said:

100% Fact you have no idea what you are talking about.......

 

C200 looks like video (especially when that is it;s intended market), GH5 I would say in-between and more cinematic now using anamorphic mode with lenses. Panasonic Varicam LT resembles film and if this new camera will provide the same image it will be amazing and one of the best cameras at this price range in the market. I easily put Varicam footage right next to Amira and in many situations much better when shooting at higher iso's

I am a big fan of your posts, I've learned a lot reading them over the years, but did you see this video from the C200?

I'm sorry but there is no GH5 video on the entire internet that looks more cinematic than this. With or without anamorphic. Obviously this is all subjective and I have seen some great GH5 work. And I'm sure the EVA will create great images as well.  

I think there's room for both cameras... especially since they're not really battling for the same market or price bracket. At the end of the day, it's a great time for indie filmmakers. 

Hell, these cameras may force Arri to release that Digital S16mm they were talking about a few years ago. 

[Timotheus]

7 hours ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

2. The Lumix team and Varicam teams HATE each other, and rarely share anything between the two lines.

Wth is that about then?

[ade towell]

19 minutes ago, mercer said:

The problem with the EVA is its price. They basically announced a concept camera that will be a +$10,000 camera once it's fully kitted out with an evf, media, paid external raw upgrade and external recorder. It will probably be closer to $12,000. Who would pay for that when you can buy a base Varicam LT for only a few thousand more?

Your obsession with RAW has very little basis in how 95% of people are going to use this camera... no production companies I know will touch RAW, but the mid tier ones do want a decent 4k 10 bit file (If the Canon c200 had 4k 10 bit I would be seriously considering that too). They are both great sounding cameras but are aiming at different folk with different needs - no need to keep trying to think of ways it's not as good as your beloved Canon...

And until they actually announce the actual price we don't know for definite how much the EVA is. It was mentioned in another thread that  Panasonic said the hvx200 was going to be under $10k when 1st announced and it came in at $6k...granted that is an extreme example but let's just wait and see. Am excited for both cameras, they both have their strengths and weaknesses

[mercer]

4 minutes ago, ade towell said:

Your obsession with RAW has very little basis in how 95% of people are going to use this camera... no production companies I know will touch RAW, but the mid tier ones do want a decent 4k 10 bit file (If the Canon c200 had 4k 10 bit I would be seriously considering that too). They are both great sounding cameras but are aiming at different folk with different needs - no need to keep trying to think of ways it's not as good as your beloved Canon...

Hey, I can only base my opinion of a camera on my needs... desires really since I'm not in the market for either of them. I understand different people have different needs. On paper, for my desires, the C200B is the best buy.

I don't mean to offend other people's choices or needs... I just thought we were having a discussion here with a little back and forth.

But honestly, I don't really know why mid tier production houses really need 10bit? Obviously, I understand the benefit of it... but what clients specifically ask for it? Is it the editing houses that are asking for it to be delivered in 10bit? Or the ad agencies? I mean the 4:22 avc codec that Canon is releasing next year is a broadcast quality codec, so who asks for the 10bit container? Sorry, I do not do any type of work like that, so I am interested how that works.

[Fritz Pierre]

28 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

 

Hopefully Panasonic will see people's reactions online and then tweak development to release a locking Micro Four Thirds Mount version!

Curiously people keep confusing a M4/3s sensor with a M4/3s mount....if I had to change all the mounts on my legacy glass using something like Leitax mounts to adapt to EF mounts, that alone will cost me over 2000 and then I lose the ability to squeeze a GH5 into a tight space for a car interior or grab a quick handheld IBIS shot....for me the negatives with this mount are considerable...If we acquired the Varicam for a feature, production would buy a PL mount and I would rent Arri masterprimes and shoot BCam on the GH5 in tight spots...so the mount on the EVA for me is a dealbreaker...in all other ways it makes the C200 look like a badly thought out joke to me!!

Alonso curious about what so many Canon "color science" lovers are doing in the Panasonic thread lol???....not enough excitement going on in the C200 thread...this feels like the GH5 all is revealed thread starting anew....probably deep down everyone loves Panasonic and is looking for a group intervention to bring them around!!!?????

[ade towell]

23 minutes ago, mercer said:

Hey, I can only base my opinion of a camera on my needs... desires really since I'm not in the market for either of them. I understand different people have different needs. On paper, for my desires, the C200B is the best buy.

I don't mean to offend other people's choices or needs... I just thought we were having a discussion here with a little back and forth.

But honestly, I don't really know why mid tier production houses really need 10bit? Obviously, I understand the benefit of it... but what clients specifically ask for it? Is it the editing houses that are asking for it to be delivered in 10bit? Or the ad agencies? I mean the 4:22 avc codec that Canon is releasing next year is a broadcast quality codec, so who asks for the 10bit container? Sorry, I do not do any type of work like that, so I am interested how that works.

Hey no worries am not offended just putting over another viewpoint - to me the price of the 2 cameras in question is fs7 territory which has been gobbling up the mid tier market for a while now and so their 4k 10 bit XAVC codec has become well established and often asked for - mainly production companies with in house editors in my experience - and going forward it would be foolish of me not to buy a camera that offers this. If you've ever played around and pushed log footage in 8 bit and then 10 bit the difference becomes fairly obvious. Admittedly Canon clog in 8 bit plays nicer than Sony's 8 bit slog2 and especially slog3 - but times have moved on and we are now talking about clog3 with the c200, and hopefully more than 12 stops of dr. 10 bit would make this so much easier to work with

[mercer]

@ade towell how much footage do you compile on a mid tier level shoot? Because with the Canon's dual recording for proxies, you can have 12bits with 15 stops of DR with an easily editable solution. Not trying to sway your opinion, just curious if it would be an option? With the iPhone/iPad remote Touch AF, the B model could get you in the door a little cheaper and will be available next month. 

Again, I don't really care what you choose, just sharing thoughts. Both are great cameras. I love the Varicam image. I love the Canon image.

[Alt Shoo]

3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Don't all act like the solution isn't already viable. JVC has a perfectly good little camcorder which is NOT a cine camera (even though it is great for shorts and in the fringe of higher spec-ed cameras) and it is NOT advertised by JVC as such, but it costs 2650$ in US, and it is 3000euros in my country, where everything is 20% more expensive than usual EU prices. What they did? Variable sensor, native m43 mount and S35 and even smaller formats. If JVC can do it for 3000euros, I do not see why Panasonic can't for 7500-8000 and still have better specs. The JVC does 4K/60p with an Atomos too. It is not science fiction, it is happening, NOW! https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1333370-REG/jvc_jvc_atmni4k60pcb_gy_ls300_4kcam_ninja.html 3440$ !!! I wouldn't never buy a m43 "cine" camera, but I would definitely buy a variable sensor one, and a GH5 and some G85 as B and C, and photography and every day cameras, and I would have a huge advantage, because right now there isn't any mirrorless Canon cameras for the C100mkII or C200 worthy buying. A lot of friends and colleagues are asking me "what Canon as a B camera?", and I can't light heartedly propose them any. So they go with FS5s and A7sIIs and a6xxx cameras, but they are not very happy with those! C series have nailed AF and ergonomics, they are huge selling points for me.

I disagree with you with the JVC Gyls300 not being a "Cine"camera. It has all the specs of one, the image quality is comparable to what's out there. Here's a couple of examples. Not the best footage for either the Varicam or the LS300, but as you can see with the lighting used here, the IQ  is eerily similar. The only thing lacking on the JVC is the 8 bit codec. 

3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

 

 

 

[ade towell]

16 minutes ago, mercer said:

@ade towell how much footage do you compile on a mid tier level shoot? Because with the Canon's dual recording for proxies, you can have 12bits with 15 stops of DR with an easily editable solution. Not trying to sway your opinion, just curious if it would be an option? With the iPhone/iPad remote Touch AF, the B model could get you in the door a little cheaper and will be available next month. 

Again, I don't really care what you choose, just sharing thoughts. Both are great cameras. I love the Varicam image. I love the Canon image.

I hand the footage over to the production company, they edit it and for the better jobs ask for 10 bit - they don't want RAW, it's not part of their work flow for obvious reasons

I love playing around with RAW on my own projects and I can see how for you having got  a taste for it with the 5d, that the c200 would be the obvious next step. I've got a kid to support, need to earn money with the camera and so have to give them what they ask for

[mercer]

18 minutes ago, ade towell said:

I hand the footage over to the production company, they edit it and for the better jobs ask for 10 bit - they don't want RAW, it's not part of their work flow for obvious reasons

I love playing around with RAW on my own projects and I can see how for you having got  a taste for it with the 5d, that the c200 would be the obvious next step. I've got a kid to support, need to earn money with the camera and so have to give them what they ask for

Right, I live so much in my own bubble that I already forgot you said you deliver the ooc footage to the production company. Brain fart moment... sorry. 

How do the production companies rate GH5 footage? Is that an acceptable 10bit until the EVA gets released?

Sorry for all the questions but I am really interested in how that side of the business works. I only work with narrative shorts, that I finance, so my knowledge of this level of professional work is ignorant to say the least. 

[ssrdd]

I love this camera, fuck canon raw i dont want that. I will wait and go for it when ever this avilable. hoping 240fps without crop. 

[Zak Forsman]

I've been searching for Varicam vs C300 comparison videos to get a sample of how the EVA1 and C200 might compare. Will say this. *IF* Panasonic can pack the EVA1 with their Varicam color science, and maintain 14 or 15 stops of DR, I'd choose that over the C200. Like Mercer, I love shooting RAW, but I'm fortunate that I've got an Odyssey 7Q+ already and am sure that with Mitch Gross involved, Convergent Design is one of the first companies that will have an update to capture the EVA1's RAW output. But more important than that to me are color and dynamic range, and I'm keeping my fingers firmly crossed that Panasonic will deliver.

 

 

[deezid]

4 hours ago, j.f.r. said:

100% Fact you have no idea what you are talking about.......

 

C200 looks like video (especially when that is it;s intended market), GH5 I would say in-between and more cinematic now using anamorphic mode with lenses. Panasonic Varicam LT resembles film and if this new camera will provide the same image it will be amazing and one of the best cameras at this price range in the market. I easily put Varicam footage right next to Amira and in many situations much better when shooting at higher iso's

Sorry to hurt your feelings.
The GH5 looks like homevideo unless you filter it a lot in production and post production.

If the EVA1 looks like the GH5 I will buy the C200 with it's unprocessed RAW codec, which won't look like video since it's unprocessed.
If the EVA1 looks like the Varicam LT/35/HS I will buy the EVA1, since the Varicam LT/35/HS look like organic film since their lack of internal processing like sharpening, NR and what so ever, and of course it's 10 bit internal codec which will make editing and storage easy. And I agree, if this is the case, no manufacturer, not even Blackmagic, can compete.

 

 

1 hour ago, Zak Forsman said:

I've been searching for Varicam vs C300 comparison videos to get a sample of how the EVA1 and C200 might compare. Will say this. *IF* Panasonic can pack the EVA1 with their Varicam color science, and maintain 14 or 15 stops of DR, I'd choose that over the C200. Like Mercer, I love shooting RAW, but I'm fortunate that I've got an Odyssey 7Q+ already and am sure that with Mitch Gross involved, Convergent Design is one of the first companies that will have an update to capture the EVA1's RAW output. But more important than that to me are color and dynamic range, and I'm keeping my fingers firmly crossed that Panasonic will deliver.

 

 

You can easily see the ugly processing the C300 MKII does in the ungraded footage.
The Varicam looks like organic film while the C300 MKII looks cheap and processed (the original C300 was way more filmic). The C200 will provide internal RAW, which hopefully will be unprocessed. I see no issue here honestly. And we still don't know how many parts of GH5 technology the EVA1 will be made of. I honestly hope, none.

After watching the full comparison I can say:
- Canon color science doesn't even come close
- DR on Varicam as well as highlight rolloff is amazing, shadows are way cleaner, the C300 MKII looks almost like the GH5 in highlights...
- Ghosting and electronic grain on the C300 MKII in dark and low contrast areas.
 

[ntblowz]

Mercer is from one man band with low to zero budget production and unlimited time so he have different requirement than most people who do video as full time job and have tight schedule

 

For our company c200 is more preferred since its mostly internal video or YouTube/Vimeo, but for me if I want to be projects to be shown on TV/Netflix EVA1 is more suited for me need. (After using c100 for those boring jobs for sooo long my mindset is set, Canon for boring corporate stuff while sony/pana for exciting projects lol)

[Dimitris Stasinos]

1 hour ago, deezid said:

Sorry to hurt your feelings.
The GH5 looks like homevideo unless you filter it a lot in production and post production.

If the EVA1 looks like the GH5 I will buy the C200 with it's unprocessed RAW codec, which won't look like video since it's unprocessed.
 

So you are saying that compression causes footage to look like "home made" and uncompressed raw data emulates film better? Not trying to argue here but to my eyes the main reason that gh5 looks "videoy" is it's limited DR and some compression artifacts that i personally consider as acceptable. What blew my mind on early C200 footage is DR, and i don't care about numbers & stops, that image clearly exceeds many standards. I think that EVA1 won't look like GH5 because due to it's sensor size and 5.7K>4K downscale it will employ different encoding algorithms, taken from the Varicam family and DR will wishfully be close to Varicams.

[jcs]

2 hours ago, deezid said:

Sorry to hurt your feelings.
The GH5 looks like homevideo unless you filter it a lot in production and post production.

If the EVA1 looks like the GH5 I will buy the C200 with it's unprocessed RAW codec, which won't look like video since it's unprocessed.
If the EVA1 looks like the Varicam LT/35/HS I will buy the EVA1, since the Varicam LT/35/HS look like organic film since their lack of internal processing like sharpening, NR and what so ever, and of course it's 10 bit internal codec which will make editing and storage easy. And I agree, if this is the case, no manufacturer, not even Blackmagic, can compete.

 

 

You can easily see the ugly processing the C300 MKII does in the ungraded footage.
The Varicam looks like organic film while the C300 MKII looks cheap and processed (the original C300 was way more filmic). The C200 will provide internal RAW, which hopefully will be unprocessed. I see no issue here honestly. And we still don't know how many parts of GH5 technology the EVA1 will be made of. I honestly hope, none.

After watching the full comparison I can say:
- Canon color science doesn't even come close
- DR on Varicam as well as highlight rolloff is amazing, shadows are way cleaner, the C300 MKII looks almost like the GH5 in highlights...
- Ghosting and electronic grain on the C300 MKII in dark and low contrast areas.
 

The latest C300 II firmware has an option to completely disable NR, and thus no more ghosting/artifacts. I've always liked Varicam footage, however I'll need to review this video in more detail when I have time. In a quick scan I didn't see where the V35 looked significantly better (on a technical or aesthetic level)- which time segments did you see this? I'm confident if I had both cameras at the same time (we have C300 II) I could make them match pretty well (I think even the GH5 Vlog can be filmic with a little post work). The big issue for us for these cameras is AF and native EF lenses (EVA1 has native support but no video AF (yet?)). For non-scripted shooting especially without a (great) AC to pull focus, DPAF-level AF is super useful. If the shots aren't in focus, especially in 4K, nothing else matters. We considered getting an Alexa Mini, which is arguably superior to all these cameras, except it doesn't have AF (and when kitted up it's pretty big and complicated).

[deezid]

1 hour ago, Dimitris Stasinos said:

So you are saying that compression causes footage to look like "home made" and uncompressed raw data emulates film better? Not trying to argue here but to my eyes the main reason that gh5 looks "videoy" is it's limited DR and some compression artifacts that i personally consider as acceptable. What blew my mind on early C200 footage is DR, and i don't care about numbers & stops, that image clearly exceeds many standards. I think that EVA1 won't look like GH5 because due to it's sensor size and 5.7K>4K downscale it will employ different encoding algorithms, taken from the Varicam family and DR will wishfully be close to Varicams.

You can attach it to an external recorder and record ProRes 444, it will look the same.
The problem is the "enhanced" processing of the GH5 and there's no way to bypass it. You can only try to minimize the symptoms.

And look at the Digital Bolex (Quite Low DR and small sensor). Beautiful and cinematic, thanks to great color science and the lack of processing. You can even convert it to 10 bit H264 and it will stay beautiful.

The main reasons for the kinda videoish amateur look are:
- strong sharpening (even at -5)
- lens corrections (only with native lenses though)
- noise reduction (even at -5)
- red channel clipping (even in V-log)
- green/magenta blocks (even recording in ProRes 444, though harder to make visible)

The Varicam has exactly 0 of these issues.
(Actually the GH5 does a very similar downsampling from 5.4k to 4k, I hope that's not a bad indicator...)

1 hour ago, jcs said:

The latest C300 II firmware has an option to completely disable NR, and thus no more ghosting/artifacts. I've always liked Varicam footage, however I'll need to review this video in more detail when I have time. In a quick scan I didn't see where the V35 looked significantly better (on a technical or aesthetic level)- which time segments did you see this? I'm confident if I had both cameras at the same time (we have C300 II) I could make them match pretty well (I think even the GH5 Vlog can be filmic with a little post work). The big issue for us for these cameras is AF and native EF lenses (EVA1 has native support but no video AF (yet?)). For non-scripted shooting especially without a (great) AC to pull focus, DPAF-level AF is super useful. If the shots aren't in focus, especially in 4K, nothing else matters. We considered getting an Alexa Mini, which is arguably superior to all these cameras, except it doesn't have AF (and when kitted up it's pretty big and complicated).

Dynamic Range:
The shot with the flower (shadow areas) and especially the shot with the vertical light (C300 MKII really struggles here, at least one stop less, both bright and shadow areas look bad)

Color:
Every shot to me. Reds look way better on the Varicam (reds are very difficult on the GH5/GH4 though, turn into yellow quite fast before they clip, greens are kinda nuclear on the GH5 as well and beautiful on varicams, I really hope the Vgamut claim is true)

[hmcindie]

5 hours ago, ade towell said:

I hand the footage over to the production company,  they edit it and for the better jobs ask for 10 bit - they don't want RAW,

So... You have one client? And no one you shoot for has ever asked for REDraw?