The wraps are off! Panasonic EVA1 compact cinema camera announced with Super 35 5.7K sensor and Dual Native ISO

[mat33]

15 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

What's CCD smear? Is that like the vertical lines you get with bright sources? I have never seen it in F35 footage but that's my only experience with a CCD camera. I only worked with a little digital bolex footage but it didn't have any either (I also couldn't figure out how to transcode it lol).

Yeah, it's a special feature of ccds that people go to great lengths to replicate horizontally on cmos sensors using anamorphic lenses ?

It was never an issue with my D16 as I struggled to induce it even shooting into the sun, maybe older CCDs were more susceptible?

 

[tupp]

20 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

What's CCD smear? Is that like the vertical lines you get with bright sources?

Yes. It's the vertical lines from bright sources (explained in this video).

 

23 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

I have never seen it in F35 footage but that's my only experience with a CCD camera. I only worked with a little digital bolex footage but it didn't have any either

9 minutes ago, mat33 said:

It was never an issue with my D16 as I struggled to induce it even shooting into the sun, maybe older CCDs were more susceptible?

I think the high-end CCD cameras had some way of suppressing smear.

[fuzzynormal]

3 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

What's CCD smear?

Horizontal distortion of bright light sources.

My Canon A1 Hi-8 camera was especially "good" at it.  

(a shitty camera that cost twice as much as a GH5, btw)

However, the funky light smears we got from old cathode ray tube video cameras always looked really cool to me. 

Actually, it's too bad someone doesn't make a (ridiculously impractical) UHD CRT camera. It's a unique look.

[Fritz Pierre]

11 hours ago, Kisaha said:

@jax_rox

Having a variable sensor is a great advantage because 1) they have a complete line of entry level cameras to cine cameras with the same mount. Interchangeable lenses between their cameras, so you can have 2 or 3 different Panasonic cameras and change lenses between them depending the project, and/or use 2) they sell more lenses 3) we can use smaller and lighter lenses 4) great marketing advantage 5) one can use hundreds and hundreds of different lenses, even smaller than m43 6) you use EF lenses, if you want, that is how we use the JVC, we don't own not even 1 m43 lens, but If I change NX to the GH5, I would like to have a few native m43 lenses to use. What is "failed"? JVC LS300 is in the market for a couple of years now, and it still sells. Samsung cameras were great cameras, and still are, the cameras didn't "fail", the mother company just chose to change policy and investments, and they decided that the whole market was going down. I am not going to cry about it, and why should I? I really enjoy using these cameras, and they make me happy, and earn me some income. I follow the market closely, and I will act accordingly. If a lot of people in the internet prefer a variable sensor camera, and not another EF mount camera from someone else, than Canon, then this camera can "fail"! and to be honest, if something doesn't change dramatically before its - unknown - release, most probably will fail.

This mount may well be another "Yagh" moment for Panasonic...(1) if they think they're going to win over canon users (who love the colors from Canon, NOT Panasonic), good luck with that. (2) The EF mount they are now offering is a DSLR mount....not a professional mount...you can't shim a Cine Zoom with this mount to achieve par focal (3) Their M4/3  customer base is much larger than the Varicam base...far more potential there for selling a "bigger brother"  to the GH5 than Varicam down...If I owned a Varicam, I would have several GH5's as crash/Bcams...not the EVA...and lastly...for those who think a smaller sensor...say s16 or the pertinent available lenses are of now value....I suggest you watch Hurt Locker...best picture/best director oscars in 2008....not 40 years ago...if you call it a Cine Camera, there is an implied suitability for Indy filmmakers and as Panasonic is slowly but surely deepening it's reach into the Cine market, this is not the way their....to wit....the overwhelming complaints at Cinegear about the mount, to the point where Reps were mumbling that they were considering other mounts too....Panasonic sold a lot of GH x cameras and for those here who think you can't use them professionally my advice is, get your head out your ass!... an upgrade from their GH and G series cameras is where the market path lies for this camera.

@Kisaha to be clear...I'm agreeing with you!

[Kisaha]

@Fritz Pierre I agree with you, too! You expressed some of my thoughts on a clearer and more discipline manner!

It is not rocket science that companies should improve and build on their own mounts and thousands of lenses they have already sold.

To be clear, I never owned anything m43, but I just see a brilliant idea to have cameras that you can interchange lenses and take you from family photos to A-B-C camera setups for corporate jobs and/or documentary, and what not (imagine a EVA+GH5+G90 kit, or whatever the next middling Pana camera comes after the G85/GX85). Right now I do something similar with NX1/NX500/NX3000, and when I have a better camera as A, then I still can use the NX1 and NX500 in some capacity, even the NX3000+fish eye instead of a GoPro.

Variable sensor can offer the best of both worlds, and honestly, I rather get the C200 for a little more, the EVA design and ergonomics seem a little bit off to be honest, and Dual Pixel has proved (with M and dSLRs, and C100mkII and C300mkII sales) that is a biggest selling point than "pro" people want to admit.

My next question about the C200 would be, what is the B and/or C cams I can get? It is pretty obvious that M series doesn't cut it.. I would love to have a C100/200 camera and a worthy M for my everyday/B camera.

[Fritz Pierre]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

@Fritz Pierre I agree with you, too! You expressed some of my thoughts on a clearer and more discipline manner!

It is not rocket science that companies should improve and build on their own mounts and thousands of lenses they have already sold.

To be clear, I never owned anything m43, but I just see a brilliant idea to have cameras that you can interchange lenses and take you from family photos to A-B-C camera setups for corporate jobs and/or documentary, and what not (imagine a EVA+GH5+G90 kit, or whatever the next middling Pana camera comes after the G85/GX85). Right now I do something similar with NX1/NX500/NX3000, and when I have a better camera as A, then I still can use the NX1 and NX500 in some capacity, even the NX3000+fish eye instead of a GoPro.

Variable sensor can offer the best of both worlds, and honestly, I rather get the C200 for a little more, the EVA design and ergonomics seem a little bit off to be honest, and Dual Pixel has proved (with M and dSLRs, and C100mkII and C300mkII sales) that is a biggest selling point than "pro" people want to admit.

My next question about the C200 would be, what is the B and/or C cams I can get? It is pretty obvious that M series doesn't cut it.. I would love to have a C100/200 camera and a worthy M for my everyday/B camera.

@Kisaha +100...the camera I will buy if a project I'm working on gets funded, will be the Varicam LT....in PL mount....and The production company will rent Arri Masterprimes to shoot it on...at around $$40,000 kitted out with P2 express, an appropriate RAID for DIT,and ready to shoot a feature, that would be the minimum cost of admission....The EVA is a camera to go with the GH5 IMO, in the same way as the C200 would go nicely with the 5D +ML....the right tool for the right job....though I obviously am only an invisable blip for Panasonic, I had seriously considered just buying this camera....for no other reason than I could see using it for commercial work or TV in conjunction with my GH cams, lenses, rigging, support systems etc....a  Varicam LT kitted out for example using Cine primes are going to come in around the 18 to 20 lb mark, requiring around a $5000 Cartoni or whatever your tripod/head of choice...the EVA would live happily on my Miller 20D head....and on and on....so IMO...in the big picture (and reading other reactions tothis mount on forums) a bad choice with this mount....though in spite of some opinions by members on this forum who must have MBAs, as they seem to be more into the business side of Panasonic than I'm privy to, I will venture a guess that Panasonic is already discussing this...Mitch Gross (previously with CD) is now with the Varicam LT and was very active in the prerelease of the EVA, though by his own admission Panasonic started on this camera long before he came on board...on DVXUser 9 out of every 10 comments is a complaint about and complete rejection of the EF mount, and not a peep in response...Mitch is a long term member on that forum and addressing all other questions but this one!...if this was a physical impossibility (of course it's not!) it would have been brought up already...it will be, when Panasonic makes a decision...one they'll have to, or this camera will bomb...makes no sense for me personally to buy a camera costing a few thousand $s after already spending thousands of $s on collecting brilliant legacy glass...I'll  simply move to another camera system instead....my investment is in my lenses....cameras?...most of the time I read about cameras to put myself to sleep at night...

[DBounce]

Clearly this camera is not meant as an A-cam to GH5 B-cam... it is meant to be a B-Cam to the Varicam LT. This is why it uses the same mount as the Varicam LT. This is why it's color science will match the Varicam... not the GH5. This is why it is designed to be mountable on drones. 

When people say M43 is not meant for professional work, it is not the same as saying no professionals use m43. I think we all know pro work has even been done with smartphones. But in most cases, m43 will not be the ideal choice for professional engagements. Moreover, the DSLR form-factor in general is not ideal for professional video work. However, it does have it's uses. I think it's fare to say the with the introduction of the EVA1 and C200 we are moving into a new era of budget filmmaking. We now have compelling options from Canon, Panasonic and Sony, for true video cameras, with real XLR imputs, SDI, remote, network, timecode etc... You might notice that I left BM off that list... I consider them more of a niche player. I think most that are drawn to the former brands will not jump on BM as these cameras have a reputation for not being the most dependable option. So for those of us that require good customer service, and rugged hardware the BM will remain something that only sees use in personal projects.

I will not purchase either camera until all the smoke clears. I need to see finalized specs and footage from Panasonic. And I will not buy the Canon until I hear details on the implementation of the XF-AVC codec. Will it be 8-bit or 10-bit? And will it be a paid upgrade? Will it ship on later cameras for free? At present I am leaning towards the Canon, but that could change if Pansonic brings their A-game with the EVA1. These are interesting times.

[Fritz Pierre]

11 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Clearly this camera is not meant as an A-cam to GH5 B-cam... it is meant to be a B-Cam to the Varicam LT. This is why it uses the same mount as the Varicam LT. This is why it's color science will match the Varicam... not the GH5. This is why it is designed to be mountable on drones. 

When people say M43 is not meant for professional work, it is not the same as saying no professionals use m43. I think we all know pro work has even been done with smartphones. But in most cases, m43 will not be the ideal choice for professional engagements. Moreover, the DSLR form-factor in general is not ideal for professional video work. However, it does have it's uses. I think it's fare to say the with the introduction of the EVA1 and C200 we are moving into a new era of budget filmmaking. We now have compelling options from Canon, Panasonic and Sony, for true video cameras, with real XLR imputs, SDI, remote, network, timecode etc... You might notice that I left BM off that list... I consider them more of a niche player. I think most that are drawn to the former brands will not jump on BM as these cameras have a reputation for not being the most dependable option. So for those of us that require good customer service, and rugged hardware the BM will remain something that only sees use in personal projects.

I will not purchase either camera until all the smoke clears. I need to see finalized specs and footage from Panasonic. And I will not buy the Canon until I hear details on the implementation of the XF-AVC codec. Will it be 8-bit or 10-bit? And will it be a paid upgrade? Will it ship on later cameras for free? At present I am leaning towards the Canon, but that could change if Pansonic brings their A-game with the EVA1. These are interesting times.

Your points are all valid, but regardless of how companies intend for cameras to be used, individuals make their own choices, as to how they use what they spend their money on...a couple of lovely features (cinematography wise) have been shot on the $800 GH2....although I would not personally opt for this route!...you are right in that Panasonic used this logic when deciding on this mount...personally I would mate the Varicam LT with 4 GH5's before going the EVA route...but again the choice is personal....ultimately the wait and see what turns up approach, is the best thing with both these cameras.

[Kisaha]

@DBounce Indeed, very well thought. With the EVA I had in mind something that could connect the lower end of video (let's say GH5) to the higher ones (Varicam).

For sure we don't know a thing about what the image of the EVA will look like, so everything is in thin air right now, as we (most) know specs are telling half, or even less, of the truth, and what about the Dual Native ISO? it certainly won't be 800/5000, so what if it is 400/2000? C100 eats 2000ISO for afternoon snack.

Not only that, what is going to be the Sony response? I am sure they must have something almost done at this point. They probably laugh at the Pana and Canon announcements. They can offer the world, if they want, the only problem is the recently released FS7markII, that wasn't as groundbreaking as we would like.

The Canon has already announced that it is going to be a free upgrade, while Pana announced that the raw upgrade will be a paid one. Some one that cares about raw should consider this as well.

It is not silly to complain a bit on forums, some companies have people following the reactions. It won't be strange if Pana includes changeable mounts, and Canon 10bit codec.

[DBounce]

3 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

It is not silly to complain a bit on forums, some companies have people following the reactions. It won't be strange if Pana includes changeable mounts, and Canon 10bit codec.

@Kisaha, Canon has been mum on the bit depth, so it might well be 10-bit when XF-AVC arrives. Honestly, that, combined with a raw 12-bit option and DPAF would make the Canon hard to beat. I'm particularly interested in building up a C200-B for handheld with the option of stripping it down when it needs to be used on a gimbal or jib. I will just add a loop or EVF when I need it for handheld work. 

I had the opportunity to watch Canon's demo film and like how it handled low-light. It looked quite clean. I also loved the black levels and highlight. Overall so far I am really liking what I see from Canon, but am still a bit weary of them gimping out on features with the new codec. I am determined not to commit to either until all the questions are answered. As for Sony... they bring much for the money. And no doubt, their next offering will have some killer features... It's just that something about Sony's image leaves me underwhelmed. Still, I can never count them out... they are very innovative.

[mat33]

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

Clearly this camera is not meant as an A-cam to GH5 B-cam... it is meant to be a B-Cam to the Varicam LT. This is why it uses the same mount as the Varicam LT. This is why it's color science will match the Varicam... not the GH5. This is why it is designed to be mountable on drones. 

Yes, this is how they have positioned the camera.  I guess the issue is if you want to use the GH5 as b-cam, what is your A-cam? Panasonic doesn't have one and they seem to be saying to filmmakers -don't invest in m4/3 lenses but use our competitors EF mount lenses and adapt these for the GH5, which doesn't make a lot of sense when you think how much $$$ they have sunk into their lens line up.  At this stage JVC is doing a better job at keeping m4/3 alive for video use and they don't make any m4/3 lenses.

[mercer]

You know, this is totally off topic but I have heard that Canon considers them self a lens manufacturer more so than a camera manufacturer... I almost think they should make native lenses for the micro 4/3 mount. I assume that would be an odd business decision but man could they rake in the money.

[HockeyFan12]

2 minutes ago, mat33 said:

Yes, this is how they have positioned the camera.  I guess the issue is if you want to use the GH5 as b-cam, what is your A-cam? Panasonic doesn't have one and they seem to be saying to filmmakers -don't invest in m4/3 lenses but use our competitors EF mount lenses and adapt these for the GH5, which doesn't make a lot of sense when you think how much $$$ they have sunk into their lens line up.  At this stage JVC is doing a better job at keeping m4/3 alive for video use and they don't make any m4/3 lenses.

Panasonic is going in the same direction as Canon and differentiating between their consumer and prosumer/professional lines.

The GH5 is the consumer A cam.

[ntblowz]

9 minutes ago, mat33 said:

Yes, this is how they have positioned the camera.  I guess the issue is if you want to use the GH5 as b-cam, what is your A-cam? Panasonic doesn't have one and they seem to be saying to filmmakers -don't invest in m4/3 lenses but use our competitors EF mount lenses and adapt these for the GH5, which doesn't make a lot of sense when you think how much $$$ they have sunk into their lens line up.  At this stage JVC is doing a better job at keeping m4/3 alive for video use and they don't make any m4/3 lenses.

Well most filmmaker got variety brand of cameras, they tend to use Canon lens with speedbooster/adapater on Sony/Pana/BM etc so that not a huge concern. Wasn't there some guys say there is no point invest in M43 when you can get FF lens to use on a lot of camera?

 

And native lens only use flybywire which MF is really bad, while Canon lens have proper MF (except STM lens)

[Kisaha]

1 hour ago, ntblowz said:

Well most filmmaker got variety brand of cameras, they tend to use Canon lens with speedbooster/adapater on Sony/Pana/BM etc so that not a huge concern. Wasn't there some guys say there is no point invest in M43 when you can get FF lens to use on a lot of camera?

 

And native lens only use flybywire which MF is really bad, while Canon lens have proper MF (except STM lens)

While exactly those STM lenses are the best for Dual Pixel AF, and even the CN-E lenses are influenced by those of how the focusing mechanisms work! and Canon reps said that good old traditional cine lenses aren't the best for fast, reliable DP AF.

On an alternative world, Nikon lenses could have been the defacto video lenses of our generation. I believe the C series cameras helped with those lenses sale and vice versa. They created some kind of buzz, that sold a lot of lenses (when the first C300 and C100 were out, people were buying one of those and a pellicase full of lenses!) while before they were using camcorders with fixed ones (remember that the Sony EX-1 was more expensive than the C100 cameras on realease, and now people complain about the 7500$ of the C200!), or similar.

[HockeyFan12]

14 hours ago, mat33 said:

Yeah, it's a special feature of ccds that people go to great lengths to replicate horizontally on cmos sensors using anamorphic lenses ?

It was never an issue with my D16 as I struggled to induce it even shooting into the sun, maybe older CCDs were more susceptible?

 

Yeah I've seen something like that on old camcorders, never seen it on the newer ones like the F35 or digital bolex. Haha someone should mount the CCD at a 90º angle and call it a feature.

[mat33]

2 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

Panasonic is going in the same direction as Canon and differentiating between their consumer and prosumer/professional lines.

The GH5 is the consumer A cam.

Yeah, but Canon does't use EF mount for consumer range and F-mount for its professional range.  Obviously the AF100 was a big disappointment to the Pro division and they blame the mount/sensor size. The GH2 crop factor isn't too far off the Red Raven, and the Raven seems to be regarded as a good pro camera, so why can't Panasonic do something similar.  They have the most to gain, you would think.

 

2 hours ago, ntblowz said:

Well most filmmaker got variety brand of cameras, they tend to use Canon lens with speedbooster/adapater on Sony/Pana/BM etc so that not a huge concern. Wasn't there some guys say there is no point invest in M43 when you can get FF lens to use on a lot of camera?

 

And native lens only use flybywire which MF is really bad, while Canon lens have proper MF (except STM lens)

Yes - Panasonic seems to agree, maybe they should make the GH6 have a APS-C sensor with EF mount and call it a day.

[VanDam]

I think spec wise the Panasonic has one big plus: Time Code in/out. And now we just have to wait till we can do the first tests with the Panasonic when it comes out.

[Fritz Pierre]

Well for me personally,the only thing Panasonic's achieved with this mount choice, is I will now start  taking a closer look at the UMP...it comes with optional mounts and is actually cheaper than the EVA...no urgency for me though....I'll  see what Panasonic does between now and the camera's  release.

[RobertoSF]

On 6/5/2017 at 8:18 AM, Fritz Pierre said:

Your points are all valid, but regardless of how companies intend for cameras to be used, individuals make their own choices, as to how they use what they spend their money on...a couple of lovely features (cinematography wise) have been shot on the $800 GH2....

Can I assume my feature Mandorla was one one them? ; ) A couple of GH2s and a set of vintage anamorphic lenses was an adventurous route to go 6 years ago.

Today, like many here, I'm happy to read about the EVA announcement and await to see how it performs, and how much "Varicam" it brings.  Meanwhile, I've decided not buy the GH5 or any other camera (or computer for that matter) until I'm headed toward production and have tested cameras and a workflow from production to post.