Cheap vs Expensive Camera Blind Test

[BTM_Pix]

If you've got the Zoom to do external audio anyway @Chris Oh then the GX85 with the Cinelike D hack would edge it for me over the G7. With the hack and the external audio you've matched what the G7 has the edge with and gained what it can't do which is the IBIS.

[Fritz Pierre]

@Chris Oh...I just got my GH5...the IBIS is almost eerie, it's so smooth...so if stabilization is something you're interested in, I'd opt for the GX85...it looks tiny but some members on this forum have posted amazing footage shot with it...also there's a member here who figured out a profile matching CineD for the camera....cost more than the G7, but maybe more fun too!...have to say I love the look of the camera itself.

Edit: Lol @BTM_Pix who posted above me, figured out how to do CineD on the GX85, so you're in good hands here!

3 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Man prices are high over there... Nice camera though.

I'm actually surprised how cheap cameras are in your neck of the woods...not crippling VAT or anything...why the huge price difference, or are these grey market cameras?

[BTM_Pix]

10 minutes ago, Fritz Pierre said:

I'm actually surprised how cheap cameras are in your neck of the woods...not crippling VAT or anything...why the huge price difference, or are these grey market cameras?

Always amazes me too.

Just looking at  numbeo.com comparing prices of goods where I live compared to Sweden and according to that I reckon me an Mattias could have a mutually beneficial arrangement if he gets gear for me there and I pay him in beer, tomatoes, oranges, petrol, Levis or men's leather business shoes.

[Mattias Burling]

No its actually quite simple. 

The introduction prices are pretty much same. Then prices are even a bit higher due to higher salaries but also higher sales tax (which is awesome imo, free healthcare, dental, college, etc, bla, bla, bla).

But the big issue is that mirrorless cameras aren't selling here. I mean at all. Some do. The GH4 for example has only recently dropped sub $1k.

But lower end like the G7, gx80, g80.. they can't even give them away. So they start dropping fast and have great discounts already the first week.

So if that's for new cameras, what is the guy selling used gonna do? In Sweden we always start of by calculating a minimum of 30% off on retail. And thats from day one. If you only bought the camera 10minutes earlier and only taken one single image there is no way in hell I would give you anything above 70% of retail. (In reality its two weeks because thats the return period, by law.)

And the retail stores sell just as cheap when they get tradeins. Plus they never use bogus words like "refurbished".

Honestly, Im not sure "refurbished" would be legal. The correct term they use is "used". And that lowers prices.

Btw, refurbished...common.. people treat them as new when some guy have wiped the screen and maybe done a factory reset

An exception is Canon and Nikon. They hold their value extremely well. Not their mirrorless, they are for free

[Aussie Ash]

TrueIndigo

"I did lapse recently though, and got the G7 because there was a good deal going on it, presumably because it's now an outgoing model. At £380 for the body, I think it must be the cheapest new camera I've ever bought. After experimenting with various Mods to the Natural picture profile and Daylight white balance, I'm seeing an image not so different from the Nikons which I love. Way back I bought a GH1 when it first came out, so I still had a lot of MFT lens adapters and enjoy using my vintage Nikon AIS prime set. My main reason to buy it though (after a long time shooting video with DSLRs) was not so much about image, but a usability consideration: the opportunity to have a high res EVF for hand-held shooting (using a pistol grip to hold it to my eye). Feels like shooting Super 8 all over again, and I actually enjoy using this little camera.

I think you can't underestimate how important the usability and pleasure of actually picking up a camera becomes, now that image quality is so good on almost everything. "

Kubrick loved his Arriflex 35-2C because it was so portable.....the jolly thing weighs 7kgs(14lbs) with 200 feet of film  !!!

We take for granted camera and lens under one and a half kilos and small enough to be inconspicuous in public places

[Fritz Pierre]

@Mattias Burling...I like this cultural "understanding" of value plus the ethical rules re what you can name the camera's condition...curious that camera shops would take the hit though, of bringing in mirrorless....perhaps their margins are higher than I realize and they can therefore knock the price down considerably after a while...B&H occasionally will have sales but they don't last...where I've had my best luck was building a set of FD lenses....I had a guy in Japan who sold FD's on EBay and the guy was so ethical re describing condition it was almost comical...what he described as a 6 would consistently turn out to be a 10 optically....allowed me to build a lovely set of the old chrome lock rings....at very decent prices!

[Mattias Burling]

A friend who used to work in a camera store confirmed to me that they make squat on camera sales anyway.

They make more in lenses.

But the bulk and real cash is in SD-cards, bags, straps, filters, credit financing, insurance.

Just think about it. Profit margin on an SD he said was like 300%. Some bag from China 500%. Insurance and credit... its free money without inventory, just comissional profit.

[Fritz Pierre]

It's likening the camera body to a desktop printer...they're selling you the ink!

[Mattias Burling]

53 minutes ago, Fritz Pierre said:

It's likening the camera body to a desktop printer...they're selling you the ink!

Exactly, or a Instax Camera, capsule coffee maker, soda streamer, etc.

[Damphousse]

On 6/13/2017 at 1:30 AM, Mattias Burling said:

And the retail stores sell just as cheap when they get tradeins. Plus they never use bogus words like "refurbished".

Honestly, Im not sure "refurbished" would be legal. The correct term they use is "used". And that lowers prices.

Btw, refurbished...common.. people treat them as new when some guy have wiped the screen and maybe done a factory reset

 

 

This in no way describes the word "refurbished" in the United States...  at least if you buy directly from Canon or some other reputable multinational OEM.

I think people should speak for whatever country they live in and do business in.  It is usually a bad idea to extrapolate things like consumer law across the entire globe.

"Used", "refurbished", and "new" are distinct classes at reputable US retail outlets.  Some places sell all three in addition to the category of "open box" and "display model".  Americans like choice.  And it is nice to have so many categories.  Everyone picks what they want based on their own finances and individual risk tolerances.  I've seen killer deals in all those categories.  And I've seen unscrupulous outfits sell garbage in all those categories.  Do your research.

[Matt Kieley]

There's weirdly a lot of G7 talk in this thread, and I just happened to get one. I've tried a bunch of cameras in the past couple of years and I liked all of them, but this one is my favorite. To use the sentiment popping up in this thread repeatedly, it's a joy for me to use. I love the feel of the body, and the monitor is so good. I shot B camera on a short documentary video yesterday with the G7+Panasonic 12-35 and I can nail focus manually with just the peaking and the monitor. I didn't even bother to hook up my Marshall VLCD50, which is something I can't say about my a6300. I attempted to do the ETTR technique with the G7 on the doc video yesterday, and today when I graded it, I was amazed how much detail was held in the highlights. There also seems to be very little RS skew in 4K. It's there, but barely perceivable. Maybe it's on par or worse than other cameras and the a6300 has just made anything look better. I don't know. I love the image I get out of the a6300 with SLog2 but it's such a fussy camera. I feel like I can get a better image more easily, with a body that feels good to use (and it doesn't overheat). I'll be selling the a6300 after I finish shooting my short film.

[Mattias Burling]

3 hours ago, Damphousse said:

 

 Do your research.

Ok, please explain to me how "refurbished" isnt a total ripp off?

As of today I have seen no information or evidence that points to it beeing anything but a used camera in good shape.

But the story they are trying to sell and the rumor I see in forums is that refurbished is when its been tested, pieces replaced, a guy in a lab coat, etc.

My guess is that its all total BS. But I would happily be proven wrong.

PS. I believe most people like choice and not just Americans. You can buy "open box" and "demo" here as well. But they still make sure you know its been used. And they don try to fool you with some bogus refurbished argument.

[Fritz Pierre]

Really just a distinction used in marketing/ sales....something on the refurbished camera could fail the day after you receive it...not that different from the concept of insurance actually...we all feel good until our house gets flooded from a river overflowing nearby...only to find out that's not "covered" by the insurance...below is a quote of how refurbished electronics are defined...as is immediately obvious,  it can merely be equipment having been tested and found to be working properly...a somewhat misleading distinction IMO

 

Refurbishment is the distribution of products usually electronics and electricals that have been previously returned to a manufacturer or vendor for various reasons. Refurbished products are normally tested for functionality and defects before they are sold. It is repaired from manufacturer and resold.

The main difference between "refurbished" and "used"[1] products is that refurbished products have been tested and verified to function properly, and are thus free of defects, while "used" products may or may not be defective. Refurbished products may be unused customer returns that are essentially "new" items, or they may be defective products that were returned under warranty, and resold by the manufacturer after repairing the defects and ensuring proper function.[2]

[Mattias Burling]

A bit of a scam then. Here they call them "used". If the camera doesn't work I guess they would call it "used and broken". But I've never seen any store try to sell broken cameras so I don't know

I guess that's why we don't need to different used from broken. They all have 6 months extended warranty anyway.
If its a demo or display unit it still sits under "used" but they ad in text that its never been out of the store or that it was a demo.

If a seller said to me, "You can buy this, its refurbished meaning, we have tested it".
My answer would be, "What do you mean tested, you haven't tested all the used cameras, they don't have extended warranty?. What kind of a crooked operation is this?
Thank you but I rather take my business to a proper store. And do expect the worst rating I can ever give on various forums. No offence to you personally. Good Day!"

Kinda..

 

[Chris Oh]

@Mattias Burling 

I can't vouch for other manufacturers in the states, but I have bought multiple times from Canon USA, refurbished.

They look new, just in a different box. And they come with warranty. Other third party stores claiming "refurb" and a scam? Maybe.

At least refurb straight from Canon USA? I don't think it's a scam.

[BTM_Pix]

"Ex Demo" used to be a common way in the UK to get round manufacturer's price controls preventing you from advertising products at discounted prices.

 When I used to sell recording studio equipment many, many years ago, products would mysteriously go out of stock from the manufacturer if you were advertising below list price. It was completely illegal for them to force price fixing in that way of course but the law didn't stop them being out of stock or giving you a trade discount of 0% if they felt like it, so it was de-facto price control.

All of our magazine ads mainly featured an 'Ex Demo' sale list with discounted prices for the products that we weren't allowed to advertise at discount prices.

These 'Ex Demo' product prices were, conveniently, exactly the same discounted price we'd sell you a brand new one at if you visited us at the office.

So, customers would ring up and go :

"I'm ringing about the ex-demo Lexicon PCM70 you've got advertised. Do you still have it?"

To which we'd reply.

"Hang on, I'll just check.......(on hold to pretend we were looking even though we knew there was no such ex-demo one).....Awww,no..I'm sorry it went this morning....I tell you what though, if you want one, we've got a couple of brand new ones that a customer has cancelled an order for, I'll do you one of those for the same price if you like?"

At which point your hand would be bitten off, the customer got a great deal, we had a happy customer who loved our generosity and fairness and we and the manufacturers could live happily in the illusion of no one ever advertising a product below list price.

I think some camera stores in the UK are using "Open Box" as being the new "Ex Demo".

You knew were you stood with us if it said "Used" though so there was never any confusion.

If we ever advertised something as "Used" there was a good chance it had rust on it.

[Mattias Burling]

3 hours ago, Chris Oh said:

@Mattias Burling 

I can't vouch for other manufacturers in the states, but I have bought multiple times from Canon USA, refurbished.

They look new, just in a different box. And they come with warranty. Other third party stores claiming "refurb" and a scam? Maybe.

At least refurb straight from Canon USA? I don't think it's a scam.

I think you missunderstood. But its not important and I won't mention it again. Its just that whole scam has bothered me for years when I see blogs write about it and I needed to went

Buy what ever works. I will stick to mint condition used with warranty because its what we get here and its cheaper than any "refurbished" Ive ever seen.

[Damphousse]

23 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

I will stick to mint condition used with warranty because its what we get here and its cheaper than any "refurbished" Ive ever seen.

If you reread the thread no one commented on the Swedish consumer goods market.  I think we are all willing to concede you know more about it than us.  What I find curious is you are not willing to concede Americans may know more about their market than you do.  I live in America at the moment and I have seen good deals in the new, used, refurbish, and open box categories.  I've bought cameras in the new, used, and refurbished categories that were good deals.  In America there is no need to have such rigid thinking.  If one sweeping rule covers every scenario in Sweden that's great.  Glad things are simple for you.

On 6/15/2017 at 10:37 AM, Mattias Burling said:

I guess...

I think that is the problem.  You are guessing where as I live in America and I have worked in manufacturing at a cutting edge multinational corporation and your characterizations of "new", "used", and "refurbished" don't bear any resemblance to what I did when I was running testing and doing some repair in a modern factory.  There is tons of stuff that is "refurbished" that has had way fewer failures and repairs than some stuff that is new.  The difference between "new" and refurbished is a matter of when the defect is detected.  A massive defect requiring hours of repair can be sold as new if my unit caught the defect in the building.  If the product left our doors and even a relatively minor defect is detected anywhere else in the supply chain the item could not be sold as new even if a customer never touched the thing.  It could be something as simple as a damaged box.

If you think "refurbished" is a scam you must really loath "new".  Refurbished has always meant what I thought it meant.  Actually I had an upside surprise when I learned how much perfectly fine stuff that has never had a problem is sold as "refurbished".  The same cannot be said for "new".  When I learned what "new" really meant I was pretty certain 99.9% of the people out there buying "new" were not expecting the number and nature of repairs we were doing on their high end equipment before we sold it to them at top dollar.

It kind of makes sense though.  If you look at the history of manufacturing there has always been areas of the manufacturing floors where repairs are made by hand on defective products before they are ushered out the door and sold as "new" to the unsuspecting public.

Look at Intel.  They make a wafer of chips.  The ones with the fewest defects they sell at top dollar.  The ones with more defects that they can't clock as high they sell as an entirely different product!  They don't even bother to repair them (doubt they even can).  They just call the defectives some slick marketing name and sell them as a new cutting edge product!

P.S.  I've seen the deals you find in Sweden that you have posted on the internet over the years.  I can't think of a single one that I have seen that I've been able to replicate in the US.  I am happy for you for all the sweet deals you seem to find over there but they simply are not applicable in my neck of the woods.  The same goes for when I tell people in Brazil about the killer deals I get in America.  The situation is different from country to country.  It is incumbent upon everyone to do their own research.

[Mattias Burling]

13 hours ago, Damphousse said:

I think that is the problem.  You are guessing where as I live in America 

I have also lived in America. But that doesn't matter or have anything to do with it.

You are missing that everything Ive said is about ONLINE offers and what online forums and blogs write. 

And most of all, Im talking about GLOBAL offers and global information. America isn't the only country in the world that has photography blogs and photographers. 

And to my knowledge most camera manufacturers aren't even American.

So no, I have just as much insight as you. And I stand by my opinion that "refurbished" deals are a bit of a scam. You of course dont have to like it or agree with me, dont care.

Like I said earlier, just needed to vent something thats been bugging me. I dont see how a thats a bad thing unless you are B&H employee or something and feel offended.

I will leave this conversation now since the thread derailed a long time ago. And I suspect we are closing in on the regular name calling and smart oneliner remarks (I wont return to read them) that seem to be killing most discussions lately.

Have a good day.

 

[BTM_Pix]

Did you get the SD Q or H version @Mattias Burling ?

I'm curious about what lenses you're using with it.

And whether you bought it open box as well obviously